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Author Topic: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects  (Read 51926 times)

Offline Archibald

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects
« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2018, 02:46:52 am »
IIRC, the end result of all the "Model 188" demos and STOLPort studies was as follows:

Since the STOLPort was likely to be a "brownfield" site on the edge of town, it made sense to make the runway slightly longer and accept somewhat higher T/O and approach speeds. Importantly, this eased the engine-out control case to the point where the cross-shafted engines of the 941 were not needed. However, four engines were still required (for engine-out and flap blowing) together with robust controls (spoilers and a large double-hinged rudder).

This led to a joint US airline spec for a 48-seat STOL transport, and the DH Dash 7 was designed to it.

Vey interesting. And that probably made a huge difference in maintenance costs. The Armée de l'Air actually got four Breguet 941S in 1971, they flew along Transalls at the 62ème escadre de transport but were dropped in 1974 as too expensive in maintenance. I wondered about a DASH-7 connection, so thank you.
For the record, Breguet merged with Dassault in December 1971 and I wondered why Dassault didn't tried to market the 941. The DASH-7 is part of the answer. The failures of both Falcon 30 (regional jet, too early) and the Mercure airliner are the other part.
It is interesting to note that the DASH-7 STOL was relaxed on the DASH-8 because airlines were not really interested. Two engines and better cruise performance, that's what the market really wanted.

Of the four Breguet 941 build, one is at Le Bourget aviation museum and another has recently been saved from scrapping by LEs ailes anciennes de Toulouse, thank to crowdfunding.
http://www.aatlse.org/news611.php
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 02:51:08 am by Archibald »
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2018, 04:24:34 am »
The Dash 7 competed head-on with the less expensive Fokker F27 and F50. By the late 1970s, after the raising of aircraft size limits on Part 298 operators, and after deregulation made it easier for smaller airlines to compete on short, low-traffic routes (many of them previously owned and inefficiently served by majors), the STOLPort craze had subsided. All that was necessary for the new "supercommuters" - Dash 8, Saab 340 and EMB-120 - was to go anywhere an F27 or a Convair could go but at a lower aircraft-mile cost.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 05:16:16 am by LowObservable »

Offline VictorXL188

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2018, 01:17:21 pm »
Amongst the pics of the Breguet 940/941/941S I never saw any of the tests carried out in central Paris, so I hope these may be of interest to people

Offline VictorXL188

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2018, 01:19:32 pm »
Apologies missed it in the middle of a bunch of others.  :P ::)

Offline circle-5

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2018, 05:34:51 pm »
Amongst the pics of the Breguet 940/941/941S I never saw any of the tests carried out in central Paris, so I hope these may be of interest to people

I suspect this photo was actually taken at the heliport in Issy-les-Moulineaux, which is just outside Paris. The telephoto lens makes the Eiffel Tower appear closer.

Offline Archibald

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2018, 11:35:16 pm »
and your intuition was right, the Breguet 941 was extensively tested at Issy les moulineaux.
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2018, 11:48:34 am »
Hello Boys and Girls

you maybe interested to know my book on the Br 94 series is planned for 2018 at Artipresse. I had a mock-up cover at Telford. There will be a lot of new material coming from interview with pilots from CEAM and E.T. 03.062. I have not been able to circonstantiate the floatplane version from original Breguet material so I am still undecided as to wether to include it or not.
Coverage will begins with the Br 940.01 of  1954 to the last flight of the type on 18 july 1974.

JCC

Offline Dynoman

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2018, 12:16:13 pm »
JC, will you be including the US airline demonstration flights of the MD-188 version?

Offline Archibald

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2018, 02:09:22 am »
Excellent !
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
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Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2018, 10:01:31 am »
Both US escapades (Br 941 / Br 941S) are covered. I have a Breguet report dated 1970 which covers the Br 941S trip. The MD 188(S) affair is spread on 5 pages of the word manuscript. I guess it would amount to slightly more pages once the book is layouted.

I also covers various European trips including the "round-Europe" Br 941 campaign , NASA experimentations, flights to Italy and Germany, the aborted flight to Middle East. One of my pilots told me he had done a flight into Africa but I have not been able to substantiate it (and he did not offer to make copy of his logbook so I did not insist). Again I understand some display operation was planned with Short in UK but I have no proof it was actually flown. Often archives are thick with planning memos but light on actual operation reports (and this is no specific of the Breguet research)

JCC

Offline patvig

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2018, 11:38:43 am »
There is one (the only remaining ?) Br 941 in Toulouse, in the collection of Ailes Anciennes. Their aircraft list is available at http://www.aatlse.org/?coll=avion
Patrice Vignaud
Larmor-Baden, France
www.vignaud.org    (planes database)

Offline JC Carbonel

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2018, 11:56:15 am »
AFAIK the Br 941 did not survive. But two Br 941 S (that's 50% of the production!) survive : one in Toulouse, one in Musée de l'Air (le Bourget)

JCC

Offline Archibald

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Re: Breguet 941 STOL and related projects
« Reply #132 on: January 24, 2018, 11:59:59 pm »
There were six of them (I was wrong), the "integral" 940 demonstrator, then a Breguet 941, and then the four Breguet 941S that went to 62ème escadre de transport until 1974.
Of these four, as said above, one is MAE in Le Bourget, another has recently be saved through a kickstarted campaign by Les ailes anciennes de Toulouse.

The two others 941S, the 941, and the 940 were all scrapped.

http://histaero.blogspot.fr/2014/11/breguet-940941-linvention-de-ladac.html
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 12:18:09 am by Archibald »
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine - Bordeaux - Mérignac / Dassault aviation museum
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