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Breguet 941 STOL and related projects

hesham

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Hi,

the Breguet Br.944 was STOL transport aircraft and could carry 150-passengers,
and the Br.946 was 250-passengers STOL aircraft projects.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1965/1965%20-%202894.html
 

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Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Similarities between the Br.946 and the other transports of the 94-series were
limited to STOL capabilities, I think, as the Br.946 was a double-deck low-wing
design. But to my opinion, the Br.941 to 945 deserve a place in the "Which projects
should have been built ?" section ;)
(From Cuny "Les Avions Breguet" )
 

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Caravellarella

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Yes Jemiba & Hesham, I agree; all the Breguet 94 series deserve a full analysis on Secret Projects. They are all TOTALLY gorgeous in my opinion except for the Br.940 Intégral which is really odd in an angular way. I, for one, would like to know how the Br.941 differed from the Br.941S apart from the obvious nose cone and cabin window arrangement......

All best wishes,

Terry, (Caravellarella).
 

Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

differences between Br.941 and Br.941S :
- replacement of the Turmo IIID (1250 hp) by Turmo IIID3 (1500 hp)
- use of another transmission gear
- modified engine nacelles, most notably the scoops on the upper side
moved aft
- an enlarged fin
- fitting of a pneumatic de-icing system
- an increased maximum angle for the flaps
- a modified rear loading ramp, that aloowed for opening in flight
- several changes in the avionic systems
- and, but for a short time only, a single nose wheel
That's what Jean Cuny told us in "Les Avions Breguet".
 

Archibald

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Br.941 were outstanding machines. Is it just my imagination or was the Br.941 considered by the Aeronavale for the COD role at one time ?
 

Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

You're right, Cuny mentiones, that the Br.941 was envisaged for COD and for resupply of artict expeditions, but these projects were abandonned.
 

hesham

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Hi,

here is the early Br.940 drawing,with single fin and glaze nose.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1955/1955%20-%200254.html
 

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Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Main difference seems to be, that this early version was only twin-engined,
with each engine driving two props. And, of course, it's still more elegant,
than the realised version ! :D
 

hesham

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Hi,

an early variants to Breguet Br.940.
 

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richard

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Thanks ,Hesham
Never see them before !
For Caravellarella :
The Br 940 was only a testbed ,wich explain it's ugliesty ???
 

Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

If I understand the text in Cunys book correct, the to drawings shown in
Heshams last post, are indeed proposals for operational variants.
 

Petrus

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

richard said:
The Br 940 was only a testbed ,wich explain it's ugliesty ???
Beauty - as they say - is in the beholder's eye. Here are some of the Br940's photos.

Best regards,
Piotr
 

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Kadija_Man

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Why is there a considerable difference in the angle of the fuselage, compared to the ground in the first and fourth pictures? Is it because there might be a pilot in the cockpit in the fourth photo? Would a pilot's weigh compress the nosewheel oleo that much?
 

Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

I was at first thinking of a nosewheel leg, which may have been extendable during
take off, but in "Les Avions Breguet" Cuny only mentiones, that the landing gear was
modified several times. So I think, that these photos were simply taken during different
stages of the development.
 

Kadija_Man

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Ah, that would explain it then. Interesting, I wonder which precedes the other? Why also the lack of spinners on the props?
 

Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

"I wonder which precedes the other"

I think, the longer nosewheel leg was the later version. Reasons for this assumption :
- During the modifications, the landing gear was beefed up and the main gear of the
"long legged" version seems to have more robust struts.
- To increase the angle of attack by lengthening the wheel leg, is a measure to improve
take-off capabilities, I think, and so a typical modification during development.

Just a guess, of course ..
 

Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

And another slight variation on the theme "Br.940", instead of wheels on the
main gear legs, there are skids.
(from Fluwelt 1955)
 

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hesham

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Hi,

and Br.941 STOL aircraft with T58 engines.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1957/1957%20-%200734.html
 

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richard

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

And one more ,from Aviation Magazine 15-5-1958
 

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richard

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Sorry ,here is the 3 views ???
 

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Caravellarella

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Dear Boys and Girls, here are some pictures of the Bréguet BR-941 & BR-941S that I found in my collection. A very attractive aircraft, and such a shame it never made it into mass/series production......

All best, Terry (Caravellarella).
 

Caravellarella

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Here is an early impression of the Bréguet 941, still with a typical Bréguet twin-tail. This advert is from the 1st November 1958 issue of Les Ailes......

I've also found a 3-view of the pressurised Bréguet 942; want to see?

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Stargazer2006

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Caravellarella said:
I've also found a 3-view of the pressurised Bréguet 942; want to see?
It's VTOL, it's French and it's rare... Three good reasons for me to be interested, of course!!!
 

archipeppe

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Back from the '70 I still remember a phtocolor shot of the Br. 941 with a French military camouflage (similiar to the Transall one) that makes the bird really impressive....
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

And let's not forget that the Breguet 941 was marketed in the U.S. as the McDonnell 188 (Model 188-E), was evaluated by both NASA and the U.S. military, but found no buyers, although Eastern and American Airlines seemed interested at some point...










The first prototype after a crash (note different fin shape, among other things):











All crash photos from the Amis des Avions Bréguet website.


A good article to download (in French):
http://aerostories2.free.fr/acrobat/appareils/france/Br940-941.pdf
 

Jemiba

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

"..the Br. 941 with a French military camouflage .."

From Jean Cuny "Les Avions Breguet":
 

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Mark Nankivil

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Greetings All -

A couple of artist's conceptions of the 188 (or variant) in airline markings courtesy of the Greater St. Louis Air & Space Museum archives.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Stargazer2006

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Fabulous stuff, Mark! You've made my day! The paintings, especially, are simply astounding! It would have been a beautiful aircraft if produced, don't you think?
 

Caravellarella

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Gorgeous images of the Br.941S; I can't breathe ;D......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

alertken

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Terry: I know it takes all sorts...but really! Do you prefer ladies to be, ah, traditionally built?

Only the DHC-series has ever worked, commercially, in STOL. For European Central Front military, advent of Corporal/Scud SSMs made reliance on runways seem quixotic. Exactly then, 1956, new FRG-in-NATO was being set up by US with an Aero production capability, and naturally wanted to return to original design. V/STOL was obvious, autobahns as bases: by mid-1960s UK components firm Dowty was working on >25 FRG V/STOL projects. US MWDP part-funded many. US also offered R&D and prospective production subvention to 5 Common Programmes, NATO Basic Military Requirements: NBMR.1 became FIAT/Dornier G.91R; NBMR.2 became Breguet/Dornier Atlantique; (no-# transport) became Nord/Nord C.160; NBMR.3, V/STOL strike, morphed into the only deployed weapon, Harrier, and evolved in FRG until AVS was throttled, early-1968 in favour of NKF-75, which became unSTOL Tornado IDS.

NBMR.4 (V)-STOL transport was covered by UK OR.351 and attracted much interest. The outcome was C-130H for many, but on way, 1958-65: FRG flew Do.31E, UK funded HS681 between 5/3/63 and 2/2/65, and France pursued Ugly Breggy, Shorts licenced as P.D.71.
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Ugly Breggy
What is it exactly you find ugly about this design? Maybe you think the Do.31 was more handsome? I don't think so.
 

alertken

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Settle for Chubby Breggy?

As well as cost, a factor in non-takeup of military transport jet V/STOL, in favour of C-130/G.222/C-27J, was detection. Close-up to the battlefield, not only noise but burn: impossible to disguise the airhead. Harrier could hop in/out of copse.

A factor in turn-off of NATO from V/STOL strike was the dual key issue on US nukes: US "custodials" must give Permissive Action Release on Presidential Authority. Incompatible with dispersal. That's why RN must develop WE177A(NDB) for its vessels, whereas RAF/MR could pick up its Lulus and Mks.57 from Sigonella/ St.Mawgan/ Macrihanish from USMC when Authorised. Harrier was procured with the potential for UK's WE177A, though in the event its roles did not require this store.
 

Sundog

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Does anyone have any good engineering blueprints for this design? I would love to model this for flight simulator. It's nice looking for a STOL liner.
 

robunos

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Not quite sure how or indeed, if, this fits in here...

From 'Air Enthusiast' No.68, March/April 1997, pp. 66-9 :-

"Responding to an RFP issued by American Airlines
in 1970, Canadair submitted the CL-246, a design
for a 48-seat tilt-wing airliner powered by four
Lycoming T-53 engines.
Although the CL-246 was chosen in preference
to it's rivals, the de Havilland DHC-5 Buffalo and
the Breguet 941, AA finally dropped the
programme because of environmental concerns
and the high projected operating costs."


cheers,
Robin.
 

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Caravellarella

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Alertken, one can never have too much drama (from one who may have fainted in the Musée de l'Air in front of the Mirage IIIV) :eek:

Here is a picture I've just bought of the Br.941S c/n 4, origin unknown. Not a "Secret" and not a "Project"; this is the aircraft stored at the Musée de l'Air at Le Bourget. I daren't go near it; it could be the death of me......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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weirc

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

Translation of flight test report

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19660029070_1966029070.pdf

Colin
 

LowObservable

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Re: Breguet 941 VTOL and related projects

IIRC, the end result of all the "Model 188" demos and STOLPort studies was as follows:

Since the STOLPort was likely to be a "brownfield" site on the edge of town, it made sense to make the runway slightly longer and accept somewhat higher T/O and approach speeds. Importantly, this eased the engine-out control case to the point where the cross-shafted engines of the 941 were not needed. However, four engines were still required (for engine-out and flap blowing) together with robust controls (spoilers and a large double-hinged rudder).

This led to a joint US airline spec for a 48-seat STOL transport, and the DH Dash 7 was designed to it.
 
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