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Author Topic: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"  (Read 108592 times)

Offline Sundog

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2007, 11:00:57 am »
I would tend to think of this program as Senior Citizen as well. But I do recall that for a while, Steve Douglass used to have a picture of a "stealthy" transport plane on his site that sort of looked like a jet powered C-130. It's engines were mounted in the fuselage, but on top of it and the intakes, IIRC, were just around the wing trailing edge. Another way of llooking at it, the engines were sort of a dorsal mounted pod that was blended with the fuselage. The tail was mounted above it.

I think I downloaded the drawing, but I don't know if I can find it now. I'll look.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2007, 01:25:29 pm »
Well, its a "secret" (non-existent?) aircraft and as such, who knows, but the various conspiracy/ufology sites suggest a link between Senior Citizen and the Coanda effect, which is what made me suggest it.
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Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2007, 01:41:19 pm »
Found somewhere in AFRL papers. Needless to say how much it resembles this one http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=413.0;attach=4141
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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2007, 01:49:01 pm »
Merged topics.
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2007, 05:01:57 pm »
The first trouble with the YC-14-type layout is the honking nose-on RCS from the engines. The second is the scrubbing drag from the jet exhaust over the wing (I told Allison that the original EMB.145 would not work for that reason). This combines with the third problem - the location of the engines on the straight wing, which pretty well pins you in the lower M=0.7x regime - to cause serious up-and-away suckitude in efficiency terms.
On the other hand, the YC-14 was pretty impressive in the STOL regime.

Offline Greysleuth

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2007, 05:39:01 pm »
The first trouble with the YC-14-type layout is the honking nose-on RCS from the engines. The second is the scrubbing drag from the jet exhaust over the wing (I told Allison that the original EMB.145 would not work for that reason). This combines with the third problem - the location of the engines on the straight wing, which pretty well pins you in the lower M=0.7x regime - to cause serious up-and-away suckitude in efficiency terms.
On the other hand, the YC-14 was pretty impressive in the STOL regime.
I think it reasonable to assume that since the YC-14 was drawn the intake layout and engine RCS will have been developed considerably. Mach 0.7x is not a problem it is quiet and cool,in and out of small rough places that they are/were looking for not fastest sector times times IMHO, after all the F-117 and B-2 are not renowned for their speed. Besides that the Americans have a tradition (habit) of using their technology for all seasons viz strike F-117, strategic bomber B-2, recon TR-3A/RF23 or whatever it is called, even that stealthy helicopter (senior moment here  :)) the name of which escapes me. The only pieces missing are sigint/elint ( global hawk ? or ER-3A ?) and their high value special forces. It was interesting to see Boeing mentioned earlier on in the thread.
Thanks for all your input. I'm still trying to find an Antonov driver who can answer my question on Coanda effects on single engine handling. If I get any answers I'll post them on here.
Thanks again,
Be lucky
David
 
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Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2007, 05:54:52 pm »
Dave - Have heard various mixed remarks of the Coanda effect and An-72/An-74 - while An-72 was created with Coanda effect in mind, and Antonov succeeded in the case, it turned out that aerodynamic surfaces were not effective enough at such low take-off and landing speeds, especially in the case of one engine failure. Moreover, after Aeroflot expressed interest and ordered larger An-74 with a new wing and fuselage, all Coanda effect tricks went to zero, and Antonov's veterans say that it has so good take-off characteristics just because of impressive thrust/weight ratio.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline LowObservable

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Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2007, 09:28:06 am »
Nope. Have seen, but you have done more - found quite appropriate place for this stuff.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Sundog

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2007, 09:53:38 am »
Quote
but the various conspiracy/ufology sites suggest a link between Senior Citizen and the Coanda effect

I don't put much reliance on anything that group says, in terms of the "technology". I base this on the simple fact that if the Coanda effect was that effective at meeting the mission requirements we would see a hell of a lot more planes using it. Just look at all the fighter/attack design studies from the 70's that incorporated that concept, none of them made it anywhere near production.

My guess is many of the people at those sites are making that false assumption simply because most stealth aircraft have the exhaust on the top to shield it from below. After all, I've read sites where people suggest the BoP's wing is shaped like it is for compression lift; erm, sorry, no, it's for a combination of LO and control reasons they chose to use the Weissmann wing. Besides, if it was designed for that reason, the engineers should have been fired since 300mph isn't nearly fast enough to study that effect.  :D I don't think they realize that compression lift today is called a waverider. ;)

However, I do consider what people see at some UFO sites. I pay close attention to the triangular and diamond shaped "UFO" sitings. I've noticed there have been a lot of reports of a diamond shaped "UFO" out west that hovers. One siting near Seattle suggest the diamond shaped UFO they saw was really noisy, like it had  a lot of jets and it was moving very slowly. I found that one somewhat credible since Senior Citizen was reportedly built by Boeing. As such, I tend to think it most likely looks like the drawing on the fist page that looks like the B-2 center section but as a diamond shaped aircraft. Afterall, it would make sense to use the B-2 cockpit if they could, economy of scale, etc. Of course, that's if it could meet the weight requirements.

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 12:48:18 pm »
Deltoid fan-in-wing concept identified as one of Boeing's notional studies under Special Operations Forces Transport Aircraft 
(SOFTA) AFSC (Air Force Wright Aeronautics Laboratories Aeronautics Systems Division (AFSC)) contract study.

Deltoid was considered best choice in comparison to tiltwing and stowed rotor concepts and finally evolved into something even having model No.2000-201/202. Note that both -201 and -202 (with greater wingspan / folding wings) were designed to have an ability to perform carrier VTOL operations.

SPECIAL OPERATIONS AIRCRAFT NEEDS, OPTIONS AND FEASIBILITY
R. B. Chisman
Boeing Military Airplane Company
Seattle, WA 981 24-2207
AIAA 91-54080
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 12:54:31 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2007, 05:54:26 am »
I have nothing new to add, but want to say big THANKS to you Greg for discovering this Boeing design. Another puzzle piece in SOFA/Senior Citizen story...  :)

I wish I have much free time to do a 3 view  :'(

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2007, 06:24:30 am »
Little more job for Matej...Lockheed Skunk Works SOA study - again 1990...of course, I must mention Lockheed's patent that LowObservable posted here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg21595.html#msg21595  ;)

Nicolai, L.M., et al
“Special Operations Aircraft (SOA) Design Study”, Technology Exploitation Directorate
WRDC-TR-W-XXXX, January 1991
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 06:35:01 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2007, 07:02:23 am »
But then I always think - if it was pursued as a black program, why did they publish the patents?

A cold shower on an entertaining fantasy...

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2007, 07:18:00 am »
My two cents - SOFA program had three contractors
We've seen documented efforts from Lockheed and Boeing...not Northrop
Seems that Northrop have reached at least testbed stage...
Project Ninja name seems quite appropriate for SOFA aircraft program with aircraft shape masked in patch emblem
As Talibs still don't give TV interviews about big black hexagonal shaitans, seems that it all ended with fiasco

P.S. As seems that US aerospace industry born hardware is in inverse proportion to papers published on it, I can give Senior Citizen a chance)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 07:20:03 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works