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Author Topic: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"  (Read 109702 times)

Offline flateric

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Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« on: June 21, 2006, 04:18:25 pm »
I have found that murky image in one of zillion AFRL ppt presentations, that serves for me a source of very interesting stuff for several years that proves to be real metall later...like knowledge of what the hell X-41 or X-42 would be three or four years ago.

"Aeronautics at AFRL"
Provided for distribution 5 Nov 2004
Dr. Walter F. Jones
Director, Plans and Programs
Air Force Research Laboratory
Dr. John D. Schmisseur
Program Manager, Unsteady Aerodynamics and Hypersonics
Air Force Office of Scientific Research

Needless to say that fan-in-wings VTOL resembles very much 'Northrop Senior Citizen' what-ifs I have seen, but the source is much more serious than one's imagination. Just wanted to share it with you.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 01:17:37 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Sentinel Chicken

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2006, 07:04:56 pm »
From the Internet (link: http://personal.inet.fi/cool/foxfour/black/aircraft.html):

Quote
The codename "Senior Citizen" was originally thought to be associated with the rumoured Aurora reconnaissance plane, but it is now thought to be a stealth V/STOL special forces transport aircraft. Boeing and Northrop probably participated in a DARPA competition in the late 1980s and Boeing's proposal was chosen for development. Funding for the project was ceased in 1993, presumably before the aircraft was ready. However, there are some sighting reports of a large, slow moving double delta winged aircraft. A drawing by an anynomous Boeing employee seems to descriebe this plane and it resembles a published Boeing study for such a vehicle.
Several years ago I had read an article somewhere about some work on a neutral buoyancy aircraft that combined a flying wing planform with helium gas cells- it was supposed to be stealthy and very quiet and combined aspects of airships with aircraft.

Offline Meteorit

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2006, 01:44:47 am »
From the Internet (link: http://personal.inet.fi/cool/foxfour/black/aircraft.html):

Warning: page is somewhat outdated. An update has been on my 'to do' list for all too long...   :(

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2006, 04:54:16 am »
That's 1994 information from Skunk Works Digest based on DoD budget documens regarding Senior Citizen

Volume 05 : Number 149
Wednesday, 24 August 1994 (oh, that's pretty old stuff)

http://www.netwrx1.net/skunk-works/v05.n149

From: TRADER@cup.portal.com
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 94 15:27:03 PDT
Subject: secret SENIOR CITIZEN aircraft revealed!!

There has been a lot of speculation about the secret U.S. Air Force aircraft
code-named SENIOR CITIZEN. Some people have stated that this code-name refers
to a hypersonic SR-71 follow-on ("Aurora") while others have stated that
it refers to the small bat-like Stealth aircraft that Steve Douglass
photographed in New Mexico (sometimes referred to as the "TR-3A"). Based
on a Department of Defense document that I just received, I will reveal
what the SENIOR CITIZEN aircraft really is.

SENIOR CITIZEN is an advanced transport aircraft!!

According to Department of Defense document DoD7045.7-H, "FYDP Program
Structure", October 1993, SENIOR CITIZEN (Program Element 0401316F) is a
tactical airlift aircraft. It might be a STOL (Short Take-off and Landing)
aircraft, because there have been several advanced STOL aircraft funded
under program category 04013xxx.

Paul McGinnis / TRADER@cup.portal.com / 76056.201@compuserve.com
                PaulMcG@aol.com / trader@shell.portal.com
« Last Edit: June 22, 2006, 05:00:57 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2006, 09:58:41 am »
1991 USAF Wright Laboratory in-house study of SOFA (Special Operations Forces Aircraft)
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2006, 04:05:55 pm »
WOW It seem that I must check this web and Gregorys posts every day  ;D

Some time ago I made drawings of what-if Northrops Senior Citizen tactical fan in wing transport, but they were based mainly on B-2 (to share parts for lower costs). They actually does not correspond at least to wing platform of drawings.

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 06:09:51 am »
I've read somewhere on the net that Senior Citizen scetch on which Matej made his beautifuk drawings, was made by anonimous Boeing employee...any details of this story? Where first info of tht stuff appeared, does anyone know?
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline SOC

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2006, 01:20:38 pm »
I was under the impression that SENIOR CITIZEN had nothing to do with any of these flying wing concepts, but rather had more to do with a Burt Rutan design...

Offline Matej

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2006, 01:44:57 pm »
Who other than Matej knows  :D  There is a problem, because we are talking about two different designs. I made my drawings from scetch that I received from my reliable source in USA. Similar but smaller I later found here: http://members.macconnect.com/users/q/quellish/Other/other.html

Info about "employee cause" can be found in another Skunk Works Digest (v05.n395):

"The picture is of a turbofan powered, low-observable ('Stealth') V/STOL advanced tactical transport design, and is taken from the technical paper "Technology and design considerations for an advanced theater transport", 1990, by Richard Wible, Technology Exploitation Directorate, Wright-Patterson AFB. This may be similar or very close to Program Element 0401316F, SENIOR CITIZEN. In the same GIF is a picture of a Boeing "Advanced Theater Transport" aircraft design, provided by Rick Pavek (kuryakin@arn.net)."

This is the reason why I was so surprised, when you sent me bigger one with name that suggests, that it is not Boeing but Lockheed design.

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline Matej

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2006, 03:04:33 am »
I think that SOFA will be my next drawing project. Which version should I draw?

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2006, 02:07:30 am »
Source: Popular Science - The Top-Secret Warplanes of Area 51 ;)
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/aviationspace/95e16f096bd8d010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 01:44:06 pm by flateric »
Slán,
fightingirish

Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

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McDonnell Douglas Model 225 painting by "The Artist" Michael Burke (Tavush) 2018, found at deviantart.com and at Secret Projects Forum » Research Topics » User Artwork » McDonnell Douglas Model 225 Painting

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2007, 02:34:52 pm »
SOF transport - deltoid fan-in-wing concept ca.1989 from

Disselkoen, Allen D., Lt.. USAF, “VSTOL Concepts for Special Operations”
(USAF, Aeronautical Systems Div., Wright-Patterson AFB, OH)
paper is not aviable online
« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 02:37:36 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Greysleuth

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2007, 06:13:23 am »
I am looking for links hints tips or pointers towards a US Stealthy Transport project. To be used for covert insertion and exfiltration of special forces. Believed to have been based on the Boeing YC-14 http://home.cinci.rr.com/estople/weirdair/yc14.jpg utilising the overwing efflux to mask IR signature and noise from in front and below and to use modified rear engine structure to diffuse hot efflux ala F-117. I think it may have had a project name in the senior series. At one time 6th S.O.S. at Hurlbert Field Florida had a US civilian registered AN-32 N6505 in service. I believe at the same time approx they leased a civilian AN-74/72 to provide test team pilots with hands on experience of flying a Coander effect aircraft, which I understand is unconventional in its handling when flown asymmetrically. I.E. loses lift as well as thrust on the affected side. Some data from the XC-8A project http://history.nasa.gov/SP-3300/f107.jpg may have been used as well.
It is quite possible that the aircraft was not taken into service or production as the V-22 Osprey will now fulfill that role.
Your time and trouble much appreciated,
Be lucky
David
I have tried searching on here without success if I have missed the blindingly obvious, sorry.
They can fly but they can't hide.

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Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2007, 10:11:18 am »
I believe you are referring to Senior Citizen...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 01:50:06 pm by overscan »
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Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2007, 10:28:49 am »
Hmmm...may be David is referring to something different? I can't see using Coanda effect anyway being used in 'classic' Senior Citizen impression. Can you at least point at sources that lead you to conclusion of existence of such a project ?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 11:02:37 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Sundog

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2007, 11:00:57 am »
I would tend to think of this program as Senior Citizen as well. But I do recall that for a while, Steve Douglass used to have a picture of a "stealthy" transport plane on his site that sort of looked like a jet powered C-130. It's engines were mounted in the fuselage, but on top of it and the intakes, IIRC, were just around the wing trailing edge. Another way of llooking at it, the engines were sort of a dorsal mounted pod that was blended with the fuselage. The tail was mounted above it.

I think I downloaded the drawing, but I don't know if I can find it now. I'll look.

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2007, 01:25:29 pm »
Well, its a "secret" (non-existent?) aircraft and as such, who knows, but the various conspiracy/ufology sites suggest a link between Senior Citizen and the Coanda effect, which is what made me suggest it.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2007, 01:41:19 pm »
Found somewhere in AFRL papers. Needless to say how much it resembles this one http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=413.0;attach=4141
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2007, 01:49:01 pm »
Merged topics.
"They can't see our arses for dust."
 
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Offline LowObservable

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2007, 05:01:57 pm »
The first trouble with the YC-14-type layout is the honking nose-on RCS from the engines. The second is the scrubbing drag from the jet exhaust over the wing (I told Allison that the original EMB.145 would not work for that reason). This combines with the third problem - the location of the engines on the straight wing, which pretty well pins you in the lower M=0.7x regime - to cause serious up-and-away suckitude in efficiency terms.
On the other hand, the YC-14 was pretty impressive in the STOL regime.

Offline Greysleuth

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2007, 05:39:01 pm »
The first trouble with the YC-14-type layout is the honking nose-on RCS from the engines. The second is the scrubbing drag from the jet exhaust over the wing (I told Allison that the original EMB.145 would not work for that reason). This combines with the third problem - the location of the engines on the straight wing, which pretty well pins you in the lower M=0.7x regime - to cause serious up-and-away suckitude in efficiency terms.
On the other hand, the YC-14 was pretty impressive in the STOL regime.
I think it reasonable to assume that since the YC-14 was drawn the intake layout and engine RCS will have been developed considerably. Mach 0.7x is not a problem it is quiet and cool,in and out of small rough places that they are/were looking for not fastest sector times times IMHO, after all the F-117 and B-2 are not renowned for their speed. Besides that the Americans have a tradition (habit) of using their technology for all seasons viz strike F-117, strategic bomber B-2, recon TR-3A/RF23 or whatever it is called, even that stealthy helicopter (senior moment here  :)) the name of which escapes me. The only pieces missing are sigint/elint ( global hawk ? or ER-3A ?) and their high value special forces. It was interesting to see Boeing mentioned earlier on in the thread.
Thanks for all your input. I'm still trying to find an Antonov driver who can answer my question on Coanda effects on single engine handling. If I get any answers I'll post them on here.
Thanks again,
Be lucky
David
 
They can fly but they can't hide.

I may be getting older but I refuse to grow up

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2007, 05:54:52 pm »
Dave - Have heard various mixed remarks of the Coanda effect and An-72/An-74 - while An-72 was created with Coanda effect in mind, and Antonov succeeded in the case, it turned out that aerodynamic surfaces were not effective enough at such low take-off and landing speeds, especially in the case of one engine failure. Moreover, after Aeroflot expressed interest and ordered larger An-74 with a new wing and fuselage, all Coanda effect tricks went to zero, and Antonov's veterans say that it has so good take-off characteristics just because of impressive thrust/weight ratio.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline LowObservable

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Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2007, 09:28:06 am »
Nope. Have seen, but you have done more - found quite appropriate place for this stuff.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Sundog

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2007, 09:53:38 am »
Quote
but the various conspiracy/ufology sites suggest a link between Senior Citizen and the Coanda effect

I don't put much reliance on anything that group says, in terms of the "technology". I base this on the simple fact that if the Coanda effect was that effective at meeting the mission requirements we would see a hell of a lot more planes using it. Just look at all the fighter/attack design studies from the 70's that incorporated that concept, none of them made it anywhere near production.

My guess is many of the people at those sites are making that false assumption simply because most stealth aircraft have the exhaust on the top to shield it from below. After all, I've read sites where people suggest the BoP's wing is shaped like it is for compression lift; erm, sorry, no, it's for a combination of LO and control reasons they chose to use the Weissmann wing. Besides, if it was designed for that reason, the engineers should have been fired since 300mph isn't nearly fast enough to study that effect.  :D I don't think they realize that compression lift today is called a waverider. ;)

However, I do consider what people see at some UFO sites. I pay close attention to the triangular and diamond shaped "UFO" sitings. I've noticed there have been a lot of reports of a diamond shaped "UFO" out west that hovers. One siting near Seattle suggest the diamond shaped UFO they saw was really noisy, like it had  a lot of jets and it was moving very slowly. I found that one somewhat credible since Senior Citizen was reportedly built by Boeing. As such, I tend to think it most likely looks like the drawing on the fist page that looks like the B-2 center section but as a diamond shaped aircraft. Afterall, it would make sense to use the B-2 cockpit if they could, economy of scale, etc. Of course, that's if it could meet the weight requirements.

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 12:48:18 pm »
Deltoid fan-in-wing concept identified as one of Boeing's notional studies under Special Operations Forces Transport Aircraft 
(SOFTA) AFSC (Air Force Wright Aeronautics Laboratories Aeronautics Systems Division (AFSC)) contract study.

Deltoid was considered best choice in comparison to tiltwing and stowed rotor concepts and finally evolved into something even having model No.2000-201/202. Note that both -201 and -202 (with greater wingspan / folding wings) were designed to have an ability to perform carrier VTOL operations.

SPECIAL OPERATIONS AIRCRAFT NEEDS, OPTIONS AND FEASIBILITY
R. B. Chisman
Boeing Military Airplane Company
Seattle, WA 981 24-2207
AIAA 91-54080
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 12:54:31 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
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Offline Matej

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2007, 05:54:26 am »
I have nothing new to add, but want to say big THANKS to you Greg for discovering this Boeing design. Another puzzle piece in SOFA/Senior Citizen story...  :)

I wish I have much free time to do a 3 view  :'(

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Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2007, 06:24:30 am »
Little more job for Matej...Lockheed Skunk Works SOA study - again 1990...of course, I must mention Lockheed's patent that LowObservable posted here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg21595.html#msg21595  ;)

Nicolai, L.M., et al
“Special Operations Aircraft (SOA) Design Study”, Technology Exploitation Directorate
WRDC-TR-W-XXXX, January 1991
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 06:35:01 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2007, 07:02:23 am »
But then I always think - if it was pursued as a black program, why did they publish the patents?

A cold shower on an entertaining fantasy...

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2007, 07:18:00 am »
My two cents - SOFA program had three contractors
We've seen documented efforts from Lockheed and Boeing...not Northrop
Seems that Northrop have reached at least testbed stage...
Project Ninja name seems quite appropriate for SOFA aircraft program with aircraft shape masked in patch emblem
As Talibs still don't give TV interviews about big black hexagonal shaitans, seems that it all ended with fiasco

P.S. As seems that US aerospace industry born hardware is in inverse proportion to papers published on it, I can give Senior Citizen a chance)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 07:20:03 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2007, 02:38:09 am »
Patch was sold (not to me) at eBay recently by a person who was say...highly involved in YF-23 flight tests. This is eBay lot photo, sorry, I haven't higher resolution. Person - on certain reasons - didn't want give any detailed information on Ninja project. Project Ninja discussion thread is here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2245.0.html
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 02:40:09 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2007, 02:10:54 pm »
I would tend to think of this program as Senior Citizen as well. But I do recall that for a while, Steve Douglass used to have a picture of a "stealthy" transport plane on his site that sort of looked like a jet powered C-130. It's engines were mounted in the fuselage, but on top of it and the intakes, IIRC, were just around the wing trailing edge. Another way of llooking at it, the engines were sort of a dorsal mounted pod that was blended with the fuselage. The tail was mounted above it.

I think I downloaded the drawing, but I don't know if I can find it now. I'll look.

From another source "...nowhere in there was there any talk about a special [С-130] series that had wing-tip "whisper" jet engines...the props were turned off, and they just circled for many hours....used in Vietnam a great deal...not shown..."

Was it glitch or someone have heard rumors like this?

"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline hesham

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 09:51:15 am »
Hi,

the McDonnell Douglas VSTOL transport and VSTOL tilt-prop aircraft.

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1988/1988%20-%200934.pdf
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 04:57:20 am by hesham »

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2008, 09:34:34 pm »
From

STOVL aircraft for shipboard operation
Yackle, A.R. (Lockheed Advanced Development Co., Sunland, CA)
AIAA-1992-4215

Now it's clear what has that PopSci artist as a starting point...apart from LM patent posted by LO
http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation-space/article/2006-10/top-secret-warplanes-area-51
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 11:52:16 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline hesham

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2008, 05:39:57 am »
Hi,

here is the Northrop B-2 in vertical lift concept.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/2002/2002%20-%201596.html

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2008, 11:25:45 am »
Found it in another FATE-related program paper ca.1997
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2009, 01:51:58 am »
I've read somewhere on the net that Senior Citizen scetch on which Matej made his beautifuk drawings, was made by anonimous Boeing employee...any details of this story? Where first info of tht stuff appeared, does anyone know?

I have seen the line drawing which I assume Matej based his renderings on in official Northrop documents. I know of one occasion where they even appear in AvWeek (early 1990s article on Northrop's Hawthorne "skunk works").

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2009, 01:59:12 am »
Little more job for Matej...Lockheed Skunk Works SOA study - again 1990...of course, I must mention Lockheed's patent that LowObservable posted here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg21595.html#msg21595  ;)

Nicolai, L.M., et al
“Special Operations Aircraft (SOA) Design Study”, Technology Exploitation Directorate
WRDC-TR-W-XXXX, January 1991

Lockheed USED to have a photo of a variant of this on their PR/Media site, I may have a copy somewhere with a cryptic file name. It was not described on the PR site with anything related to the above study.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2009, 04:51:03 am »
I hope that you will find this copy  :)

Bizarre aviation expert.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2009, 07:06:13 am »
copies, I'd say
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2009, 05:46:22 pm »
Who other than Matej knows  :D  There is a problem, because we are talking about two different designs. I made my drawings from scetch that I received from my reliable source in USA. Similar but smaller I later found here: http://members.macconnect.com/users/q/quellish/Other/other.html

Info about "employee cause" can be found in another Skunk Works Digest (v05.n395):

"The picture is of a turbofan powered, low-observable ('Stealth') V/STOL advanced tactical transport design, and is taken from the technical paper "Technology and design considerations for an advanced theater transport", 1990, by Richard Wible, Technology Exploitation Directorate, Wright-Patterson AFB. This may be similar or very close to Program Element 0401316F, SENIOR CITIZEN. In the same GIF is a picture of a Boeing "Advanced Theater Transport" aircraft design, provided by Rick Pavek (kuryakin@arn.net)."

This is the reason why I was so surprised, when you sent me bigger one with name that suggests, that it is not Boeing but Lockheed design.


Well, now that would be quite a surprise... (!)  I have seen drawing of that aircraft quite a number of times (something badly reproduced line drawing which looked difformed) but with 2 major differences: the underside and wing as well as propulsion system looked like it was a waverider !!  There was a clear engine module typical of hypersonic aircrafts underneath (no over-fuselage inlet nor fans). And, guess what.. ? When i was quizzing Prof. Cszyz several years ago during my research about 'Aurora' and what the shape of a true hypersonic aircraft looks like, after exchanging many little drawings and reference paper titles, he pointed me to that one and said: THAT is the shape of a typical hypersonic aircraft. I was dubious at first, because i know his answers are often like Russian dolls, dubious because i thought this project was too recent and might have been conceived After Aurora..  Well... now i see the same shape all over again, but now with VTOL fans and what not.. surprising. Why would they use a waverider shape to propose a VTOL stealth transport... One of those two must be disinformation if you ask me.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 05:54:26 pm by Desert Dawn »

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2009, 08:34:39 pm »
interesting, that giant VTOL SOFA promoted in 'Monsters vs. Aliens' ;)






« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 08:36:35 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2009, 04:45:31 pm »
...A stealth Super Guppy! You'd think only Gerry Anderson would have tried something like this  ;D

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2009, 09:29:30 am »
We should start attibuting the more fanciful designs to OKB Andreyevich.

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"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2009, 10:14:53 am »
It was as close to "Anderson OKB" as I could get at that point.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2009, 12:40:11 am »
My old scan from NG document

Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2009, 07:34:28 am »


Is there supposed to be a lift post at the back as well? maybe deflection of the cruise engine exhaust? I see four lift-fan doors on the 20- nad 40% of the wing chord, and it seems like without some lift at the back, the centroid of hover lift would not be on the cg...
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2009, 09:20:21 am »


Is there supposed to be a lift post at the back as well?

That's a problem I've got with this as well. There pretty much *has* to be something further aft.
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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2009, 09:27:39 am »
CammNut has it better
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2009, 09:48:36 am »
 How about an arrangement similar to Lockheed's VARIOUS?
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #51 on: July 09, 2009, 03:04:00 am »
In 2006 I did a page on Senior Citizen for my upcoming aviation site and featured it on the Stargazer website because of Rutan's implication in the sub-scale demonstrator.
In case some of those interested in the program may not have seen it, here's the link:

http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircraft/citizen.htm

As usual, I more than welcome criticism, if constructive, and any additions/corrections you may provide...

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2009, 03:30:00 pm »
In 2006 I did a page on Senior Citizen for my upcoming aviation site and featured it on the Stargazer website because of Rutan's implication in the sub-scale demonstrator.
In case some of those interested in the program may not have seen it, here's the link:

http://stargazer2006.online.fr/aircraft/citizen.htm

As usual, I more than welcome criticism, if constructive, and any additions/corrections you may provide...



What is very interesting to me is that the specifics of the Coanda implementation you describe Northrop using on SENIOR CITIZEN closely match their more recent work on AJACS, described here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2765.msg49048.html

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2009, 08:29:34 am »
looks like there are two (shaft driven or direct lift engine) lift fans in the front, per side.
But what's in the back? Is that a flap? a 2D nozzle?
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2009, 12:27:30 pm »
My guess is that it is some sort of folding deflector, capable to redirect the thrust from the cruise engines.

Bizarre aviation expert.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2010, 11:39:56 am »
The demonstrator will support the Advanced Joint Air Combat System (AJACS) now in requirements definition within the USAF’s Air Mobility Command. Formerly called AMC-X, AJACS is envisaged as a future replacement for the Lockheed Martin C-130 tactical transport. Other AFRL efforts are looking at embedded aero-propulsion concepts for extreme STOL capability.

Companies that registered interest in bidding for the demonstrator contract include Alenia North America, Lockheed, Piasecki Aircraft and Voyager Aerospace. The latter was formed by Dick Rutan, who says he has been working with brother Burt [yeah, that Burt Rutan] on a twin-engined light cargo aircraft "for 15-plus years", but could not provide details of the design or its status.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/03/there_are_so_fe/



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Offline shedofdread

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2010, 12:57:37 pm »
All very interesting. However, if we assume that that this stealth transport is for say, the covert insertion of S/F, it's a bit of a downer that the moment you open the fan doors to transition to thrust borne flight, you instantly have the RCS of a semi detached house.

Also be careful of any 'saucer like' Coanda VTOL system. There are significant engineering problems with them. Yes there is a UAV company touting one around but try operating one on a windy day......nuff said.

S
(raining on parades)

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #58 on: January 22, 2010, 07:10:03 pm »


Is there supposed to be a lift post at the back as well?

That's a problem I've got with this as well. There pretty much *has* to be something further aft.

I'd surmise that it's similar to the aft thrust post in McDD+NG's JSF proposal.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #59 on: January 22, 2010, 10:18:07 pm »
All very interesting. However, if we assume that that this stealth transport is for say, the covert insertion of S/F, it's a bit of a downer that the moment you open the fan doors to transition to thrust borne flight, you instantly have the RCS of a semi detached house.

Also be careful of any 'saucer like' Coanda VTOL system. There are significant engineering problems with them. Yes there is a UAV company touting one around but try operating one on a windy day......nuff said.

S
(raining on parades)
Well thousands of people from different countries have reported various flying triangles, which would seem statistically unlikely to be part of a combined hoax.  I believe when you have access to the smartest guys on the planet, and combine them with the biggest black budget on the planet, engineering problems are transformed from "impossible" to just "expensive".

Some air group somewhere has something triangular and very awesome. Its just a shame that the geniuses behind it wont get their Kelly Johnson "rock star" celebrity status for what they've done. I hope the pay was good at least.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2010, 11:30:07 pm »

Well thousands of people from different countries have reported various flying triangles, which would seem statistically unlikely to be part of a combined hoax.  I believe when you have access to the smartest guys on the planet, and combine them with the biggest black budget on the planet, engineering problems are transformed from "impossible" to just "expensive".

Some air group somewhere has something triangular and very awesome. Its just a shame that the geniuses behind it wont get their Kelly Johnson "rock star" celebrity status for what they've done. I hope the pay was good at least.


You seem to be implying that making a triangular aircraft is difficult. The A-12, B-2, RQ-170, and others fit this description easily and were not particularly impossible aerodynamically.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2010, 08:05:47 am »
You seem to be implying that making a triangular aircraft is difficult. The A-12, B-2, RQ-170, and others fit this description easily and were not particularly impossible aerodynamically.
No, I was making the argument that the other seemingly impossible aspects, either coanda or lift fan with terrible RCS must have been overcome with ridiculous amounts of funding.

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2010, 10:51:28 am »
No, I was making the argument that the other seemingly impossible aspects, either coanda or lift fan with terrible RCS must have been overcome with ridiculous amounts of funding.

Money does not change the laws of fluid dynamics, unfortunately.

Offline shedofdread

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2010, 02:06:29 pm »
Just logged back in. However, Quellish has rather made most of my points for me (the cheque's 'in the post'). One further one is that IF such a platform existed, the most dangerous time for it would be when it is on the ground. Sadly, all it would take is one RPG round and on the ground it would stay. So, it's highly unlikey from a CONOPS point of view that you would want to land such a cutting edge platform. That rather negates it's usefullness.  Put another way, it's like landing one of your B2s outside a FOB in Helmand (were it to have STOL / rough field capability).

On a vaguely related note, I seem to recall seeing a WW2 F-W concept for a fan in wing VTOL system.

S
(Who joined this forum because of the apparent standard of debate and information disseminated - Not been dissapointed)

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2010, 06:50:26 pm »
Well since we can all mostly agree that it or a variant exists, howabout instead of debating the possibilities of its lift system, you guys theorize on where it might be stationed so some of us can try and get a shot of it.... :)


Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2010, 09:16:42 pm »
Well since we can all mostly agree that it or a variant exists, howabout instead of debating the possibilities of its lift system, you guys theorize on where it might be stationed so some of us can try and get a shot of it.... :)

Oh no, nothing like this is operational. If anything was flown, it was as a demonstrator and nothing more. The existence of current, well funded programs that are trying to fulfill essentially the same requirements is just one of many indicators that SENIOR CITIZEN never went into even limited production.

But to more directly answer the question...
If it's AF Special Operations, it's based at Hurlburt/Eglin.
If it's a covert program, it's based at either TTR or Edwards/DET3.

If it were an operational aircraft, there would need to be a unit to fly it. Prior to the late 90s these were easy to find - any AF unit with a 4xxx number was almost certainly doing something shady. For example, the 4200th Support Group. Now that is not true, but nonetheless the recent disclosures surrounding the RQ-170 program highlight current USAF best practices for covert programs.
You also need spare parts, personnel with the right training and experience, fuel, and of course money. For any given program you should be able to find documentation in the public domain disclosing some of these things being diverted somewhere. For example, you can find plenty of information on fuel and construction contracts for TTR at the time that the "classified predator unit" was starting up. You can also find there were no Predators allocated to the unit, and that it was the wrong kind of fuel.

As far as SENIOR CITIZEN, it remains something of an enigma. The program definitely had money allocated to it in amounts that indicated either a demonstrator was being tested. Later programs, such as JSF and AJACS seemed to benefit from prior work that could have been conducted as part of SENIOR CITIZEN. At the same time, if SENIOR CITIZEN was a powered-lift V/STOL aircraft it would need a hover pit for testing. Those are kind of hard to hide, and DET 3 did not have anything like that during the years that SENIOR CITIZEN was running. If the demonstrator was simulating something the size of a small transport, it would have to be a hover pit designed for more stress than the ones used for JSF - which should be easy to find. So far, I have not located any new test facilities that could support such a program.
 

Offline shedofdread

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2010, 01:50:09 am »
If such a platform were to be tested for conceptual viability, I would suggest that a sub scale (maybe not even manned) demonstrator would be a good way of proving the technology (control systems particularly) and hence 'de-risking' the project in later, far more expensive phases. Should this be the case, the hover pit you would need might only be sort of size that you would ground run a Harrier over....

S
(anticipating the time when project 'Senior Moment' is revealed)

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2010, 06:45:16 pm »
From a Michael Schratt interview.... What is that document?


Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2010, 08:25:57 pm »
From a Michael Schratt interview.... What is that document?

It's somethign he seems to have created himself.
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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2010, 08:29:37 pm »
From a Michael Schratt interview.... What is that document?

It's something he seems to have created himself.
Whoa...... OUCH!!!!!!!!    :o

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2010, 08:52:16 pm »
From a Michael Schratt interview.... What is that document?

I know what this is.
That is an espresso machine.
No wait. It's a snow cone maker.
Is it a water heater?

Offline aim9xray

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2010, 09:18:31 pm »
Tom Servo?
Crow?

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2010, 09:20:01 pm »

I know what this is.
That is an espresso machine.
No wait. It's a snow cone maker.
Is it a water heater?

Ballsy. Stupid, but ballsy.
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Offline SOC

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2010, 09:41:01 pm »
Tom Servo?
Crow?

The Governator  B)

Ballsy. Stupid, but ballsy.

Is that an Arnocorps reference?  ;D

Seriously, Schratt's document looks like nothing more than a collection of fan-art and patent material.  Most of it looks familiar, even at that low resolution.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2010, 10:40:18 pm »
Stargazer, may I ask where you got the following verbiage?

As it had to be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle.

Because if that info is correct, then this is very likely the Senior Citizen...

« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 10:43:33 pm by sublight »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2010, 01:30:50 am »
Stargazer, may I ask where you got the following verbiage?

As it had to be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle.

Because if that info is correct, then this is very likely the Senior Citizen...



Ha! This originates in an unpublished 2004 web page on secret aircraft in which I basically tried to synthesize all the info I found on other sites and give them some coherence (and also chop off all the garbage). As some of you may know already, most of my pre-2006 files, sources, documents (including many of my Rutan-related material) disappeared in a computer crashdown and as I didn't always specify my sources at the time, I have utterly no idea where I got this one from, sorry. However, it would be reasonable to add a mention on that page that most of the info, if plausible, is still unverified.

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2010, 02:00:29 am »
Stargazer, may I ask where you got the following verbiage?

As it had to be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle.

Because if that info is correct, then this is very likely the Senior Citizen...



That is DEFINITELY an espresso machine.

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2010, 02:03:42 am »
That is DEFINITELY an espresso machine.

And this is a snow cone maker (you can guess who the driver is).

Now, can you imagine this - french fry smell or not - driving into the black lighted thing pictured?

sublight

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2010, 08:09:44 am »
Regardless of how odd it looks, thousands of people saw the craft in that picture. It matches up rather nicely with what stargazer posted.

Offline Firefly 2

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2010, 10:37:59 am »
Stargazer, may I ask where you got the following verbiage?

As it had to be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle.

Because if that info is correct, then this is very likely the Senior Citizen...



Well... The craft in the 1990 Belgian UFO wave did do some incredible manoeuvres on  this vid, so I doubt it would have been a transport aircraft.


sublight

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2010, 12:16:44 pm »
Stargazer, may I ask where you got the following verbiage?

As it had to be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle.

Because if that info is correct, then this is very likely the Senior Citizen...



Well... The craft in the 1990 Belgian UFO wave did do some incredible manoeuvres on  this vid, so I doubt it would have been a transport aircraft.


No it didn't. The Belgian F16's never made visual contact with the craft in question. All of the supposed "maneuvers" were only on their radar screens. Are the F16 radars we sold to the Belgians "spoof proof"?
 

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2010, 01:04:52 pm »
Regardless of how odd it looks, thousands of people saw the craft in that picture. It matches up rather nicely with what stargazer posted.

Thousands of people have seen Elvis, that doesn't mean it was him.

And what would be the reasoning behind the bright lights on it? To blind anyone it might land on?

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2010, 01:31:23 pm »

And what would be the reasoning behind the bright lights on it? To blind anyone it might land on?

In a sense, yes. It is my opinion that the thing was a hoax... probably a balloon/blimp sorta thing built by someone with more money and free time than sense. A dark, quiet balloon at night might go unseen. Put some lights on it, and viola, everyone sees it and many freak out. A pity this occured over European cities rather than, say, the rural US or South Central Los Angeles. It would have had so many bullet holes and/or shotgun blasts that it would've come down shortly, and we'd be done with it.
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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2010, 01:45:44 pm »

And what would be the reasoning behind the bright lights on it? To blind anyone it might land on?

In a sense, yes. It is my opinion that the thing was a hoax... probably a balloon/blimp sorta thing built by someone with more money and free time than sense. A dark, quiet balloon at night might go unseen. Put some lights on it, and viola, everyone sees it and many freak out. A pity this occured over European cities rather than, say, the rural US or South Central Los Angeles. It would have had so many bullet holes and/or shotgun blasts that it would've come down shortly, and we'd be done with it.
The dates mesh really spectacularly with the fall of the wall and collapse of the East German government. That is incredibly coincidental timing for a hoax.
Whoever the hoaxers are, they appear to be skilled in spoofing the radar of F16's....   B)

Offline Firefly 2

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2010, 02:30:50 pm »
Stargazer, may I ask where you got the following verbiage?

As it had to be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle.

Because if that info is correct, then this is very likely the Senior Citizen...



Well... The craft in the 1990 Belgian UFO wave did do some incredible manoeuvres on  this vid, so I doubt it would have been a transport aircraft.


No it didn't. The Belgian F16's never made visual contact with the craft in question. All of the supposed "maneuvers" were only on their radar screens. Are the F16 radars we sold to the Belgians "spoof proof"?
 

No, the radars you sold us were of course nowhere near "spoof proof" ( F16A standard, within an airframe built by Sabca, I happen to live quite closely to the Sabca factory, but that's not relevant). You are rather wrong in stating that these manoeuvres where only witnessed on a radar screen.
I was a 9 year old kid at the time, but I distinctively remember a vid where said triangle was rotating around it own axis at a slow rate. I fail to locate it on youtube, but I doubt my memory fails me on this part, as this( the First Belgian UFO wave) was the event that sparked my obsession with the secret and the bizarre. Numerous eyewitnesses also claimed that the triangles disappeared at almost unimaginable speeds. A VTOL transport would need time to transit from a hovering to a high speed condition. This assumption makes me believe that the Belgian Triangle was not Senior Citizen, but something else, with higher performance ( assuming that,of course, said eyewitnesses were accurate in their assessment of breakaway speeds, and assuming that Senior Citizen's performance follows the logic of other VTOL planes).
Query: Were you aggravated by my remark? If so, why? I doubt that my original post contained something aggravating.

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2010, 03:32:49 pm »
No, the radars you sold us were of course nowhere near "spoof proof" ( F16A standard, within an airframe built by Sabca, I happen to live quite closely to the Sabca factory, but that's not relevant). You are rather wrong in stating that these manoeuvres where only witnessed on a radar screen.
I was a 9 year old kid at the time, but I distinctively remember a vid where said triangle was rotating around it own axis at a slow rate. I fail to locate it on youtube, but I doubt my memory fails me on this part, as this( the First Belgian UFO wave) was the event that sparked my obsession with the secret and the bizarre. Numerous eyewitnesses also claimed that the triangles disappeared at almost unimaginable speeds. A VTOL transport would need time to transit from a hovering to a high speed condition. This assumption makes me believe that the Belgian Triangle was not Senior Citizen, but something else, with higher performance ( assuming that,of course, said eyewitnesses were accurate in their assessment of breakaway speeds, and assuming that Senior Citizen's performance follows the logic of other VTOL planes).
Query: Were you aggravated by my remark? If so, why? I doubt that my original post contained something aggravating.

Observers often report flying "things" disappearing at impossible speeds. This is almost always due to whatever they are seeing changing angles, etc. rather than the thing actually moving off at high speed. One of many reasons you have to take any observer's report with a grain of salt. Our mammalian predator brains are very good at making inferences for us.

That was totally an espresso machine.

I'd have to check, but I do not think SENIOR CITIZEN received enough money prior to 1990 to have produced an vehicle. This would easily rule out flights over Belgium.

Offline Dreamfighter

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2010, 04:01:32 pm »
It wasn't an expresso, but definitely the Sabca/Fritel XRA-2A.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2010, 06:15:31 pm »

No, the radars you sold us were of course nowhere near "spoof proof" ( F16A standard, within an airframe built by Sabca, I happen to live quite closely to the Sabca factory, but that's not relevant). You are rather wrong in stating that these manoeuvres where only witnessed on a radar screen.
I was a 9 year old kid at the time, but I distinctively remember a vid where said triangle was rotating around it own axis at a slow rate. I fail to locate it on youtube, but I doubt my memory fails me on this part, as this( the First Belgian UFO wave) was the event that sparked my obsession with the secret and the bizarre. Numerous eyewitnesses also claimed that the triangles disappeared at almost unimaginable speeds. A VTOL transport would need time to transit from a hovering to a high speed condition. This assumption makes me believe that the Belgian Triangle was not Senior Citizen, but something else, with higher performance ( assuming that,of course, said eyewitnesses were accurate in their assessment of breakaway speeds, and assuming that Senior Citizen's performance follows the logic of other VTOL planes).
Query: Were you aggravated by my remark? If so, why? I doubt that my original post contained something aggravating.

I am not aggravated by anything that you've said. At least we can agree that is was not an espresso machine.

I don't want to derail the "Senior Citizen" thread so I will say in closing that I believe if this is not in fact the "Senior Citizen" product then its most definitely a byproduct of a sister program. I'd like to further that by putting up a wager that when forum members finally dig up its origins that not only is it "made in USA", but its a Northrup craft. If I am wrong I will cough up $200 to the Secret Projects Forum paypal account.    B)

Offline Abraham Gubler

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2010, 10:06:49 pm »
I'd like to further that by putting up a wager that when forum members finally dig up its origins that not only is it "made in USA", but its a Northrup craft. If I am wrong I will cough up $200 to the Secret Projects Forum paypal account.    B)

Can you add inflation indexation to your offer? Because it might be some time until everything from 1989 is declassified and I would hate to see Overscan miss out on lost value. Perhaps it would be better if you just gave him the money now and if the slightest shred of evidence arises otherwise he can refund you?

To me it’s obvious that this thing if actually real and airborne is just the delta wing of an ultralight (TrikeBuggy Delta), hang glider or kite with some lights on each corner. Probably not even a prank just some harmless home building pilot trying to get some light for safe night landing.

As to the timing the lack of Belgium’s geographic centrality to anything associated with the fall of Berlin Wall makes a mockery of this argument. Especially since no one in between Belgium and the Iron Curtain (ie south west Germany) saw the same thing.
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Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2010, 10:38:39 pm »
I am not aggravated by anything that you've said. At least we can agree that is was not an espresso machine.

I see nothing that indicates it was not.

And yes, 0401316F did not have enough funding to have produced a vehicle that early, sorry.
I'm still looking around for the Lockheed SENIOR CITIZEN image I had at one point, but am not hopeful. It may be on one of several older SCSI drives in storage. If you made an F-23 transport, it would look a lot like this thing.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #90 on: April 08, 2010, 12:46:09 am »
And yes, 0401316F did not have enough funding to have produced a vehicle that early, sorry.

In all DoD funding logic, yes, but since Bird of Prey was revealed, we know better. A company can develop a program for the government on private funds and voilà! The program can remain secret for 10 years without one line in defense budgets!

If you made an F-23 transport, it would look a lot like this thing.

Precisely. Hence the possible Northrop connection. Besides I seem to remember from another thread here that some of the projects that were developed by Northrop at the time towards a stealth transport proposal were F-23ish in design. All the rumors circa 1989 about the would be "Northrop TR-3A Manta" may have some basis in reality after all... No smoke without a fire?


Offline Lauge

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #91 on: April 08, 2010, 04:17:11 am »
All the rumors circa 1989 about the would be "Northrop TR-3A Manta" may have some basis in reality after all...

As I understand it, the "TR-3" came about because someone overheard someone else talking about the "Tier 3" UAV, and got the spelling wrong. Although Wiki claims that the timeline is wrong for this explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-3A_Black_Manta).....  ???

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« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 04:21:34 am by Lauge »
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #92 on: April 08, 2010, 04:37:32 am »
Ohh boy the Belgium 1989 UFO wave hits "Senior Citizen"...

sorry Overscan, but as eyewitness i have to speak
Orionbambam:
Quote
In a sense, yes. It is my opinion that the thing was a hoax... probably a balloon/blimp sorta thing b
i go for the Blimp, suspects ?
next to one horse town Eupen is located the RWTH Aachen University
with first-class Faculty of Aeronautics and Aerospace Engineering

from Wat i viewed, it was three light in a triangle formation with a four in middle
I look it from side in a low angel, it move in pedestrian speed
if it made a sound it was more quiet as noise of the traffic

like this picture only with the lights and rest in black
that rule out a Paraglider with engine, you hear them befor you see them
also a Paraglider without a engine i rule out
because in cold air of November 1989 so a glider fall fast down
also ULA because the Triangle was to slow for a ULA


there even eyewitness report by police !
like a police patrol who chase one of the Triangles from German border until cottage of Balen
they notice first a headlight from Sky that put a spot in bright daylight
this headlight goes out and they see a "big" Triangle in sky moving slow true Sky
Wat happen next is a wild chase cross country until Balen
were the Triangle stop from time to time and used that headlight, Wat Police use to catch up
another eyewitness in Balen was putting his trash in backyard, as the headlight hit his backyard
some neighbors claim it was huge like a Boeing 747, other say size of house
it very difficult evaluate the real size in night sky with out a comparable
this headlight give indication the Triangle has a Crew also is craft able to hover in sky quiet.
again sounds more like Blimp as Aircraft

All of the police report are filed and stored in Liege, strange they nickname them "the X-Files"  :D

sublight:
Quote
The Belgian F16's never made visual contact
odd one of F-16 had a Video camera on board and the recording was show for the press
the Video show some lights in the sky, but until more details become clear,
the Belgian Airforce General turn the VHS off with words "That's all folks" (in french)...

So let put piece together
Slow over sky, able to hover, is almost quited and must have a Pilot
must be a Blimp with electric motors

Speculation:
that was a Blimp build from students RWTH Aachen University
made test flight Wat wend out from controll with cross over Belgium border
they return see in Media Wat happend and destroy the Blimp
so they have not trouble with authorities, special with Belgium's
I love Strange Technology

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #93 on: April 08, 2010, 07:10:29 am »
I really think the lights serve as some sort of compass ghost type of visual signature reduction.

Notice Michel said it "came from the German border"... Ahem...  B)

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #94 on: April 08, 2010, 07:35:36 am »
I really think the lights serve as some sort of compass ghost type of visual signature reduction.

Notice Michel said it "came from the German border"... Ahem...  B)

on Belgium streets and highways, there fully illuminated at night ! (can be see from space  B) )
http://izismile.com/img/img2/20090807/cities_at_night_07.jpg
the trajectory of Triangle was along to highways A3 (E40) Aachen-Liege-Brussels
it was first seen near Hauset north of A3 near Wallhorn it over fly the Highway
past over sky of town Eupen, moved to Balen where it fly over Highway again

the illuminated  Highway at night, is like very BIG Roadsign
http://www.fotothing.com/photos/4f9/4f945f817ac16c537bf67e223dea8943.jpg
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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #95 on: April 08, 2010, 07:53:38 am »
...it might be some time until everything from 1989 is declassified.....
Then again, maybe not that long....
http://www.archives.gov/declassification/faqs.html

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"The NDC will shorten the amount of time that it takes to declassify a document."

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #96 on: April 08, 2010, 08:15:34 am »

Several years ago I had read an article somewhere about some work on a neutral buoyancy aircraft that combined a flying wing planform with helium gas cells- it was supposed to be stealthy and very quiet and combined aspects of airships with aircraft.
That sounds just like what Michel has described.....
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 08:20:10 am by sublight »

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #97 on: April 08, 2010, 08:30:22 am »
Also let's not forget that Lockheed has patents for blimps of different kinds, including stealth blimps. There was a rumor about a blimp the size of a football field at some point, and some people claimed it could be that. And the observers of that blimp also mentioned bright lights at the tips of that thing.

Offline Firefly 2

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #98 on: April 08, 2010, 09:07:54 am »
I really think the lights serve as some sort of compass ghost type of visual signature reduction.

Notice Michel said it "came from the German border"... Ahem...  B)

Belgium is quite a small country, and Aachen is really close to the German border. Come to think of it: by US standards every single point in Belgium is close to some border or other.

Wouter
Zaventem, Belgium

Offline Dynoman

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #99 on: April 08, 2010, 09:29:01 am »
From the points inwhich the vehicle was sighted moving, tracing it directly backwards, it may have departed from the NATO airbase Geilenkirchen. Its an E-3 airbase with large hangers. The vehicle's route may suggest that it was moving towards England (also the location of many of these sightings).

A recent defense industry article suggest that a special operations stealth troop transport is needed and would follow work done by others (reducing the time to field such a vehicle).

 "A SOF program would probably follow on larger efforts in this realm, taking advantage of work the services have done elsewhere so it might not take us as long as [it] takes them," Vickers said. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4528377

This leads me to think that the vehicle sighted may be a demonstrator or a scaled down vehicle with degraded capabilities, not currently meeting the SOF demands/requirements.

Offline Sundog

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #100 on: April 08, 2010, 11:02:02 am »
I lean toward this being a blimp or a slightly "Heavier than Air Vehicle." I remember those Lockheed drawings and still have them of the deltawing "stealth" blimps. I also remember the Aeron designs and there was also a designer in England proposing a hybrid flying wing airship as a cargo plane. I remember a lot of this activity in the late 70's, early 80's and then all the info on it just stopped. This leads to believe it went black and that some demonstrators were built. I've also read some other "reported sightings" that indeed lead me to believe there has been deltawinged and flying wing LTA or hybrid aircraft flown.

As for the ATC guys seeing them shoot off on RADAR at speeds no known aircraft can perform, I've always just thought that was spoofing and was done to make the scrambled aircraft go looking in the wrong place for them.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #101 on: April 08, 2010, 11:29:33 am »
I remember those Lockheed drawings and still have them of the deltawing "stealth" blimps.
Can you post those?

Offline Sundog

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #102 on: April 08, 2010, 02:58:34 pm »
Actually I can't, as they're in my books or cutouts from magazine articles and I don't have a way to hook up my scanner atm. I'm sure they're already here or on the net somewhere. Just Google "Stealth Blimp" and you'll see some. This is the one I recall the most, the Lockheed Stealth Blimp, which projects a starfield on the bottom of it to camouflage it at night.

In fact, I remember back in the 1980's, my Mom used to watch Unsolved Mysteries and I used to watch their UFO episodes, because I figured most of what was being reported were just aircraft people couldn't identify. I remember one sighting happened on Long Island near Grumman, where a flying wing, V-shaped, giant UFO flew over their house. The witnesses could see the "girder structure" as it went overhead, but it was moving too slowly and too silently to be "Earth" technology! Um, no. It's called LTA you dolts.

There was also another episode where, reportedly, a giant triangular ship was being "chased" (I would say escorted) by U.S. Army Helicopters and it went right over a family in a car and I think one of them got out and suffered burns when it went overhead and had some sort of radiation poisoning or cancer as a result? I just figured it was a malfunctioning blimp that was either nuclear powered, to stay aloft, unmanned, for long periods of time, or had a giant RADAR array that was malfunctioning and irradiated them. Of course, with an aperture that big, it must not have been at full power or they would have been cooked.

That's assuming any of them are true, but I usually check UFO sites for clues to classified aircraft sitings. In fact, I read one that was reported from near Stone Henge, where someone there also saw a giant black triangle moving slowly overhead. But the witness had the sense to state that it was moving towards Boscombe Downe, which is just to the east of Stone Henge IIRC, and he said, "It sounded like a blimp." Bingo, we have a winner...

Of course, I can't say if any of those reports aren't pranks, but when it comes to large triangular aircraft sitings, you know where my money is...
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 03:13:38 pm by Sundog »

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #103 on: April 08, 2010, 03:03:12 pm »
Actually I can't, as they're in my books or cutouts from magazine articles and I don't have a way to hook up my scanner atm. I'm sure they're already here or on the net somewhere. Just Google "Stealth Blimp" and you'll see some. This is the one I recall the most, the Lockheed Stealth Blimp, which projects a starfield on the bottom of it to camouflage it at night.

AARS/QUARTZ/Tier III had a system like this, and if a demonstrator flew it is the most likely source of the "stealth blimp" reports. The size, shape, time period, and capabilities match.

Offline SOC

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #104 on: April 08, 2010, 04:09:13 pm »
AARS/QUARTZ/Tier III had a system like this, and if a demonstrator flew it is the most likely source of the "stealth blimp" reports. The size, shape, time period, and capabilities match.

It could bend light?  Did it also ask if you wanted candy?

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #105 on: April 08, 2010, 05:00:03 pm »
It could bend light?  Did it also ask if you wanted candy?

No, it could change the contrast and color of the aircraft in some places, and that was managed by the defensive system. It did not work with their payload's apertures, for example, and in areas where edges or shadows would be defined under normal conditions there were more panel elements than the rest of the aircraft. It was not at all like an LCD screen as some have described. More of a countershading/color matching.
And I do not want candy. I want espresso.

Of course, this is all hearsay :)

Offline mz

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #106 on: April 13, 2010, 06:03:01 am »
Triancular buoyancy / aerodynamic lift craft
http://www.aereon.com/

Cardington is an airship shed location in southern England that has been active with numerous projects during the years
http://www.airshipsonline.com/sheds/Cardington.htm

Offline Mr London 24/7

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #107 on: April 13, 2010, 06:18:23 am »
...Cardington is an airship shed location in southern England that has been active with numerous projects during the years
http://www.airshipsonline.com/sheds/Cardington.htm

Those big ol' sheds are way too public for any nefarious goings on though....

Offline mz

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #108 on: April 13, 2010, 06:33:22 am »
...Cardington is an airship shed location in southern England that has been active with numerous projects during the years
http://www.airshipsonline.com/sheds/Cardington.htm

Those big ol' sheds are way too public for any nefarious goings on though....

Probably true, just pointing out that there has been some ongoing airship activity in southern England - for example Lockheed's Walrus or whatever it's called seems to be a version of the british Skycat / Skykitten. I wouldn't be surprised if these airship experts would have tested some more secret stuff... Not necessarily at the home shed but potentially close by. Belgium though sounds quite far.

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #109 on: April 24, 2010, 01:02:01 pm »
...truly generic image I guess
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #110 on: April 24, 2010, 01:56:44 pm »
High swept low-wing delta. One of the worst combinations for that purpose.

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline dannydale

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2010, 04:16:13 pm »
Smells a bit like disinformation or a generic nonce design to me.

sublight

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2010, 06:17:53 pm »
...truly generic image I guess
And where did you get this slide???? :)

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #113 on: May 02, 2010, 07:09:44 pm »
Flateric posted this bio on the STAV thread which has some relevance here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2681.msg21577.html#msg21577
"After that he worked on an advanced technology demonstrator competition and led the aerodynamic design, analysis, and test activities. Mr. Komadina then for several years led all of the flight sciences activities for an advanced transport technology program, many internal technology R&D programs, and the Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) program"

Assuming the bio is somewhat chronological, that would put the "advanced transport technology" program around the time that SENIOR CITIZEN was active.

Offline blackstar

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #114 on: May 02, 2010, 07:22:54 pm »
Smells a bit like disinformation or a generic nonce design to me.

I think a safer bet is that they went to the contractor who does their slides (everybody in DoD hires a contractor to do their PowerPoint for them) and said "give us a cool looking stealthy transport aircraft that doesn't look like anything else."  That might qualify as "disinformation," but not the active kind.  They have artists to generate generic stuff like that for them.

Offline flateric

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"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2010, 11:41:22 pm »
found original source of top drawing in early 80s Lockheed Horizons along with another interesting assault transport concept (and other one not so exciting)
needless to say, it was not 'Boeing's', but Lockheed's - so long-time mystery why two drawings of the same thing were labelled differently, is solved
stay tuned till evening
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 11:43:58 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline dannydale

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #117 on: October 14, 2010, 08:30:06 am »
What the Christ? Cute design, but that thing doesn't look like any kind of viable VTOL transport ship. It looks like a hypersonic waverider complete with upturned wingtips like that Cockrell Waverider that someone then installed liftfans and an auxiliary propulsion engine on. Where's the ramp and the cargo hold on this thing? Fuel Fraction? Takeoff speed?

I see the only way we get viable hypersonic VTOL aerospace vehicles is the same thing that gets us a working SSTO ship: Fusion Power powered by hydrogen/boron11 reactions in dense plasma focus or polywell reactors. No chemical energy regime I know of will accomplish this with anything remotely resembling a good mass fraction or cost per flight. Not even triethylborane! I'm afraid this looks more like a G.I. Joe™ type thing than anything that stands a chance of being more than a paper propaganda piece for acquiring more DoD funding. Otherwise, it looks like it belongs on Luftwaffe 1996! :D

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #118 on: October 15, 2010, 01:29:12 am »
Advanced Tactical Transport concepts from Lockheed Horizons Issue 21 (September 1986)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:40:37 am by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Matej

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #119 on: October 15, 2010, 01:41:41 am »
Thanks! Now it looks even more generic to me.

Bizarre aviation expert.

sublight

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #120 on: March 30, 2011, 09:37:01 am »
I'd like to further that by putting up a wager that when forum members finally dig up its origins that not only is it "made in USA", but its a Northrup craft. If I am wrong I will cough up $200 to the Secret Projects Forum paypal account.    B)

Can you add inflation indexation to your offer? Because it might be some time until everything from 1989 is declassified and I would hate to see Overscan miss out on lost value. Perhaps it would be better if you just gave him the money now and if the slightest shred of evidence arises otherwise he can refund you?

To me it’s obvious that this thing if actually real and airborne is just the delta wing of an ultralight (TrikeBuggy Delta), hang glider or kite with some lights on each corner. Probably not even a prank just some harmless home building pilot trying to get some light for safe night landing.

As to the timing the lack of Belgium’s geographic centrality to anything associated with the fall of Berlin Wall makes a mockery of this argument. Especially since no one in between Belgium and the Iron Curtain (ie south west Germany) saw the same thing.
I did in fact donate this amount many moons back.... :)

Now I'm just waiting for loose lips.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #121 on: October 25, 2013, 11:40:38 am »
In my files I have a copy of an old May 28th, 2006 message from another forum (red highlighting is mine):

Quote
What I have is that program Senior Citizen (evidence number PE0401316F) was born in second half of 80s and cancelled in 1993. It was designed as special V/STOL stealth transport plane for 12 soldiers and one vehicle in Hummer class.

It seems that Lockheed, Northrop and Boeing submitted proposals. I made some drawings of Northrop proposal based on sketch that I have from reliable source. It was derived from B-2 as other proposals from this era (for example ATA) to reduce the costs. But personally I think that four fans in fuselage produced not enough lift, so plane should be at best in ESTOL class. Other proposals are still objects of my research. I found one sketch of double delta design with eight lift and one (two ?) cruise engines with description that it is Boeing design. But two years later one my source sent me the original drawing that says, its from Lockheed. So....

Considering LTV's aircraft manufacturing division became part of Northrop in the early 1990s, and the well-known ties between Scaled and Northrop, perhaps the B-2 derived design described here was simply Scaled's Model 223? For Rutan/Scaled's active design involvement in the SOFTA program (subcontracting for LTV), please see:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20555.0
There is a wealth of information there on the SOFTA program (which apparently replaced SOFA) and I sincerely thank sublight for taking up the search/scanning for me at the University of Texas in Dallas. We may not have evidence to back his claims that "Senior Citizen" hardware was built and that, if built, was a Northrop product, but I believe we are now one step closer to the truth. There is an obvious design lineage between the B-2 (Northrop, with Rutan/Scaled involvement on the RCS model), Scaled's Model 223 (Rutan/Scaled design for Vought, later part of Northrop) and the Model 326 (Northrop X-47A, a Scaled design).
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 12:47:41 pm by flateric »

Offline Matej

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #122 on: October 25, 2013, 11:26:43 pm »
Considering LTV's aircraft manufacturing division became part of Northrop in the early 1990s, and the well-known ties between Scaled and Northrop, perhaps the B-2 derived design described here was simply Scaled's Model 223?

No. Different wing/fuselage concept and fan in wing propulsion (consistent with other proposals such as Boeing Model 2000-201/202). Way too different from Model 223.

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #123 on: October 26, 2013, 07:11:41 pm »
There is a wealth of information there on the SOFTA program (which apparently replaced SOFA) and I sincerely thank sublight for taking up the search/scanning for me at the University of Texas in Dallas. We may not have evidence to back his claims that "Senior Citizen" hardware was built and that, if built, was a Northrop product, but I believe we are now one step closer to the truth.

Northrop's B-2 derived design is depicted earlier in the thread. This effort was run out of the advanced development projects group at Hawthorne. Unfortunately it does not appear that Northrop received any significant amount of public funds for this effort, at least not from the SENIOR CITIZEN PE or any related PEs.
Other companies did.

There is an obvious design lineage between the B-2 (Northrop, with Rutan/Scaled involvement on the RCS model), Scaled's Model 223 (Rutan/Scaled design for Vought, later part of Northrop) and the Model 326 (Northrop X-47A, a Scaled design).

The Scaled 223 actually looks almost exactly like an aircraft that Steve Douglass captured on film at Roving Sands in 1994 and identified as the TR-3.
I thought X-47A was designed by Northrop but constructed by Scaled. The patents I've seen for X-47A technology have been filed by Northrop with infamous Northrop personalities as inventors.

Offline sublight is back

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #124 on: October 27, 2013, 02:17:01 pm »
A couple things,

has anybody other than Paul McGinnis said that Senior Citizen was a tactical airlift aircraft?


Paul was only repeating what DoD said it was. The PE code indicates what it is.

Quellish, am I using the wrong decoder ring? This doesn't seem right for this program...

The funding code for Senior Citizen was Program Element 0401316F


DoD PROGRAM         04   (mobility forces)
R&D CATEGORY       01   (basic research)
EQUIPMENT/ACTIVITY    3   (Missiles & Related Equipment)
SERIAL NUMBER       16   (The 16th version?)
SERVICE                       F   (Air Force)

DoD PROGRAM ELEMENT CODE SYSTEM

DoD PROGRAM
01    Strategic Forces
02    General Purpose Forces
03    Intelligence and Communications
04    Mobility Forces
05    Guard & Reserve Forces
06    Research & Development
07    Central Supply & Maintenance
08    Training, Medical & Other
09    Administrative & Associated Activities
10    Support of Other Nations
11    Special Operations Forces

   

R&D CATEGORY
BA-1    Basic Research
BA-2    Applied Research
BA-3    Advanced Technology Development (ATD)
BA-4    Advanced Component and Prototypes (ACD&P)
BA-5    System Development and Demonstration (SDD)
BA-6    RDT&E Management Support
BA-7    Operational Systems Development
   

SERVICE
       A    Army
       BB     U.S. Special Operations Command
       BL     Defense Contract Management Agency
       BP     Chemical & Biological Defense
       BR     Defense Threat Reduction Agency
       C      Missile Defense Agency
       D8Z      Office of Secretary of Defense
       DO    Operational, Test & Evaluation Defense
       E    DARPA
       F    Air Force
       J    Joint Staff
       K    Defense Information Systems Agency
       M    Marine Corps
       N    Navy
       S    Defense Logistics Agency
       T    Defense Security Cooperation Agency
       SE    DoD Human Resources Activity
       V    Defense Security Center
       KA    Defense Technical Information Center
       B8W    Washington Headquarters Service
 

    EQUIPMENT/ACTIVITY TYPE

   1     Military Sciences
   2     Aircraft & Related Equipment
   3     Missiles & Related Equipment
   4     Military Astronautics and Related Equipment
   5     Ships, Small Craft & Related Equipment
   6     Ordnance, Combat Vehicle & Related Equipment
   7     Other Equipment
   8     Programwide Management & Support
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 02:18:56 pm by sublight is back »

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #125 on: October 27, 2013, 06:07:38 pm »

Quellish, am I using the wrong decoder ring? This doesn't seem right for this program...



You are using PE guidance that is too modern. See
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg2710.html#msg2710
The SENIOR CITIZEN program element was assigned in 88 or 89 as I recall.

Offline sublight is back

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #126 on: October 27, 2013, 07:25:07 pm »

Quellish, am I using the wrong decoder ring? This doesn't seem right for this program...



You are using PE guidance that is too modern. See
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg2710.html#msg2710
The SENIOR CITIZEN program element was assigned in 88 or 89 as I recall.

After an hour of Google I still cant dig up the old PE mapping. FAS has something but the formatting is near impossible to decipher....  :(

Offline aim9xray

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #127 on: October 27, 2013, 09:42:20 pm »
Ran across this tonight and excerpted the relevant page.

HTH.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #128 on: October 28, 2013, 10:24:40 am »
Here is a list of selected DoD programs, arranged by PE numbers, which I did on Excel back in 2007, for all it's worth:

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #129 on: October 28, 2013, 12:03:22 pm »
After an hour of Google I still cant dig up the old PE mapping. FAS has something but the formatting is near impossible to decipher....  :(

I took a quick look around DTIC and didn't find what you would need for that time period. I found 1996 documents that are missing some important parts, but not the complete handbook for that time period. They like to deprecate the older versions when new ones come out, unfortunately.

As I recall, the important change is that if something is program X, the next two digits have a different meaning than they did before these changes. So if something is an R&D program, the next digits have very different meaning. IIRC, these meanings vary quite a bit between different revisions of the PE structure.
So, for example, SENIOR CITIZEN may be...
04 - Mobility Forces
01 - ? Not Basic research as this is not an RDTE program (program 4, not 6). This may not have any explicit meaning.
016 - Serial 16
F - Air Force

The important part here is that it is not an RDTE program. Again, this is all from memory, I don't have documentation relevant to this time period handy, nor could I find it through a quick DTIC search.


However, if you ARE interested in particular PE codes, these two resources are often useful:

Search DTIC for the PE number:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=site%3Adtic.mil+0401316F

Search comptroller.defense.gov for the PE number:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acomptroller.defense.gov+0401316F

This is more useful for recent programs than historical programs like SENIOR CITIZEN, but should still be helpful.

Offline sublight is back

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #130 on: October 28, 2013, 12:11:04 pm »
Thanks guys. I guess we'll get the rest of the details in the 2030 timeframe....

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #131 on: October 28, 2013, 01:26:58 pm »
To complement my previous post, here's a complete list of all known PE numbers from the same time frame. Don't know if this can be of help to anyone.

Offline Mr London 24/7

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #132 on: November 05, 2013, 03:24:54 pm »
Interesting planform to lower right of DARPA Image.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #133 on: November 05, 2013, 04:09:48 pm »
Interesting planform to lower right of DARPA Image.

Indeed. And all the others are interesting too, in their own way... Is this the cover to a DARPA publication? And is it available online somewhere?

Offline fightingirish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #134 on: November 05, 2013, 04:17:52 pm »
See topic "NEW DARPA VTOL X-Prize".  ;)
Slán,
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Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #135 on: November 06, 2013, 12:29:28 am »
Interesting planform to lower right of DARPA Image.

Now the Northrop Special Purpose Stealth planform is also interesting. Why the wing "fold" joints? Where are the inlets?

Offline Mr London 24/7

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #136 on: November 06, 2013, 11:38:45 am »
Now the Northrop Special Purpose Stealth planform is also interesting. Why the wing "fold" joints? Where are the inlets?


I presume below leading edge (beneath the aux/bleed doors visible on upper). Mmmm - How wide is a USN Carrier Elevator?...
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 12:03:34 pm by Mr London 24/7 »

Offline Mat Parry

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #137 on: November 06, 2013, 01:15:01 pm »
I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with the Northrop Special Purpose Stealth Planform so apologies if I'm off the mark or stating the obvious

the bottom left looks something like the Agusta Westland Project Zero

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18593.msg191261.html#msg191261


all electric propulsion would of course eliminate the need for inlets

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2013, 07:39:21 pm »
I'm afraid I'm unfamiliar with the Northrop Special Purpose Stealth Planform so apologies if I'm off the mark or stating the obvious

the bottom left looks something like the Agusta Westland Project Zero

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18593.msg191261.html#msg191261


all electric propulsion would of course eliminate the need for inlets

Northrop "Special Purpose Stealth" is (most likely) Northrop's SENIOR CITIZEN concept:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg2733.html#msg2733
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg2758.html#msg2758
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=1748.0

Offline Mat Parry

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #139 on: November 07, 2013, 02:18:44 am »
Thanks!


I did a search but couldn't find anything, I understand now.


Agree a limited Carrier compatibility (such as the U2 partially demonstrated) would indeed make a lot of sense especially for a spooky VTOL platfrom.

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #140 on: November 07, 2013, 04:30:39 pm »
I presume below leading edge (beneath the aux/bleed doors visible on upper). Mmmm - How wide is a USN Carrier Elevator?...

With this design I would think putting the inlets down there would have some FOD issues. Those fans would move a lot of stuff under the aircraft, and that may blow right back into those inlets.

Offline Mr London 24/7

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #141 on: November 08, 2013, 02:14:45 am »
With this design I would think putting the inlets down there would have some FOD issues. Those fans would move a lot of stuff under the aircraft, and that may blow right back into those inlets.

I presume such an aircraft would have an extreme low speed ability (in line with the 'football stadium' landing/take-off SOF requirement mooted for rescue missions over the years) but still require forward momentum enough to help. I presume the upper doors would open under such conditions, perhaps the lower ones meshed or partly closed - but this all feels a little like pointless speculation doesn't it... Built with the last of the 'Cold War' Money? - Operational difficulties resigned it to "Dyson's Dock"?  :)

The greatest interest for me is that this Project was listed as '(H)' - it seems something was funded - I do hope we learn more.

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #142 on: November 09, 2013, 09:06:56 pm »
I presume such an aircraft would have an extreme low speed ability (in line with the 'football stadium' landing/take-off SOF requirement mooted for rescue missions over the years) but still require forward momentum enough to help. I presume the upper doors would open under such conditions, perhaps the lower ones meshed or partly closed - but this all feels a little like pointless speculation doesn't it... Built with the last of the 'Cold War' Money? - Operational difficulties resigned it to "Dyson's Dock"?  :)

The greatest interest for me is that this Project was listed as '(H)' - it seems something was funded - I do hope we learn more.

USMC had previously run two studies, THUNDER CAT, a stealthy VSTOL transport, and GHOST RIDER, a stealthy VSTOL fighter. The work from these lead into the various ASTOVL, MRF, JAST, etc. work that eventually resulted in JSF. Occasionally Lockheed will mention the work on some of the previous, secret programs. For example, the shaft driven lift fan was a part of GHOST RIDER as I recall.
The public story is that all of these this different design and conceptual study work on propulsion happened as part of one of the public programs:
http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=214108&dfpPParams=industry_aero,aid_214108&dfpLayout=article
But that's not correct.

Offline Mr London 24/7

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #143 on: November 11, 2013, 10:41:45 am »
Mmm, so at least part of the story (THUNDER CAT) runs into this (rather confused) thread:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10338.msg97142.html#msg97142

I assume the (Bevilaqua) 'Ghosthawk' is related to the GHOST RIDER and then perhaps the 'SSF' work:

http://www.jsf.mil/history/his_prejast.htm




« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:43:22 am by Mr London 24/7 »

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #144 on: November 11, 2013, 11:44:22 am »
Mmm, so at least part of the story (THUNDER CAT) runs into this (rather confused) thread:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10338.msg97142.html#msg97142

I assume the (Bevilaqua) 'Ghosthawk' is related to the GHOST RIDER and then perhaps the 'SSF' work:

http://www.jsf.mil/history/his_prejast.htm

Yes, my mistake - GHOST HAWK, not GHOST RIDER.

Offline yasotay

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #145 on: November 15, 2013, 11:54:28 am »
Found this concept in a very old briefing.  Thought I would share but I have no idea if it is in anyway related to this or other stealthy cargo work.  It was in an unrelated briefing on aerodynamics work.

Offline Mr London 24/7

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Offline Lincoln

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2013, 11:39:50 am »
Hey, longtime lurker, first-time poster here.

I don't think this is worthy of its own thread, but I was wondering what people made of the apparent fuselage at 37° 14.019', -115° 48.886' at Groom, because I can't seem to identify it.

It's pretty clearly a fuselage, but I can't think of what it might be from.  It pretty clearly has some sort of rear door first thought it was just a discarded fuselage from one of the DeHavilland STOL transports but after looking at it from a slightly different angle on Bing maps I can't think of any piece of hardware that it actually resembles.  With Google maps, it almost resembles an early C-130 without the front radome, but using the pickup next to it as a reference, it looks a little small.  It could also be a big helicopter but I can't think of any hardware that resembles that shape.

If you look at it on Bing maps, it takes on the pale grey color that we're used to seeing on other low-observable projects, and the front end almost looks like it has rounded facets. 

I know this is a long shot, but it looks an awful lot like it's from a sub C-130-sized low observable transport of some sort.  What do people here make of it?

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #148 on: December 09, 2013, 11:14:36 am »
Hey, longtime lurker, first-time poster here.

I don't think this is worthy of its own thread, but I was wondering what people made of the apparent fuselage at 37° 14.019', -115° 48.886' at Groom, because I can't seem to identify it.

It's a C-130 fuselage. It's been there for a good long time now. There have been discussions at DLR about it.

Offline Lincoln

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #149 on: December 10, 2013, 03:11:23 pm »
That's good to know, it looked an awful lot like a C-130, but given some of the other governmental goofs in the past (the A-12 canopy on ebay or the uncovered SSBN propellor on bing maps comes to mind) I didn't want to rule out something more interesting being left out in the open.

Back to Senior Citizen.  I'm normally pretty skeptical about seemingly outlandish low-observable projects, but something gives me a hunch that this might have led to actual hardware.  I had a professor once who flew C-130's in the 1980's and he had some really interesting stories about flying missions over Eastern Europe at low level to drop off/pick up intelligence teams and the like.  Missions that involved flying very, very low 50-100ft to stay under radar coverage.

Now that there seems to indicate a real need for something that could quietly get into and out of these sorts of places to drop off or pick up operatives, etc.  Given the extremely sensitive nature of the work this platform would do, that's reason alone to keep it all under wraps lest the CIA have to publicly deal with the ramifications of a low-observable platform intended penetrate unfriendly airspace to drop off/pick up personnel.

We already know from Operation Neptune Spear that the US has a limited number of low-observable rotorwing assets for this sort of mission, so it stands to reason that there might exist a fixed-wing or hybrid platform designed for similar work.

My first post got me thinking that the marvelously complex Northrop proposal that's been discussed here, lift fans and all, might have been too complex a design for something that, if it exists, very well could have come from a production run of less than 5 units.  Since there's concrete evidence of low-observable modifications of existing hardware thanks to the crashed article from the Neptune Spear operation, could Senior Citizen have ultimately led to something similar, a low-observable customization of a much more common airframe.  Something like a heavily modified V-22, C-130, or YC-14 that would be based on existing, proven technology and could be thrown together relatively quickly.  What do people here think of that idea?

Offline Kryptid

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #150 on: December 10, 2013, 05:16:35 pm »
Since there's concrete evidence of low-observable modifications of existing hardware thanks to the crashed article from the Neptune Spear operation, could Senior Citizen have ultimately led to something similar, a low-observable customization of a much more common airframe.  Something like a heavily modified V-22, C-130, or YC-14 that would be based on existing, proven technology and could be thrown together relatively quickly.  What do people here think of that idea?

Nothing with a propeller, that's for sure.
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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #151 on: December 10, 2013, 06:45:30 pm »
Since there's concrete evidence of low-observable modifications of existing hardware thanks to the crashed article from the Neptune Spear operation, could Senior Citizen have ultimately led to something similar, a low-observable customization of a much more common airframe.  Something like a heavily modified V-22, C-130, or YC-14 that would be based on existing, proven technology and could be thrown together relatively quickly.  What do people here think of that idea?

Nothing with a propeller, that's for sure.

I guess that would depend on what kind of stealth they'd want out of such a system.  Jets would net you better results in terms of radar signature, but it would be possible to design a prop-driven aircraft that's much quieter acoustically and thermally. 

It's a tradeoff for sure, and for something that'd likely be flying low and slow anyways, it might make more sense to design a platform that's acoustically quiet with an RCS that's low enough, rather than an airframe with a tiny RCS that's as loud as an airliner.  Just look at the Comanche and whatever crashed in Pakistan and you see that it's possible to design an aircraft with spinning rotors that still has a fairly low RCS. 

If they really wanted to get exotic but stick to proven tech, then there's no reason why a ducted fan design like the X-22 with radar-dispersing grates over the props might be an option as well.

Offline yasotay

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #152 on: December 11, 2013, 12:37:06 pm »
Since there's concrete evidence of low-observable modifications of existing hardware thanks to the crashed article from the Neptune Spear operation, could Senior Citizen have ultimately led to something similar, a low-observable customization of a much more common airframe.  Something like a heavily modified V-22, C-130, or YC-14 that would be based on existing, proven technology and could be thrown together relatively quickly.  What do people here think of that idea?

Nothing with a propeller, that's for sure.

I guess that would depend on what kind of stealth they'd want out of such a system.  Jets would net you better results in terms of radar signature, but it would be possible to design a prop-driven aircraft that's much quieter acoustically and thermally. 

It's a tradeoff for sure, and for something that'd likely be flying low and slow anyways, it might make more sense to design a platform that's acoustically quiet with an RCS that's low enough, rather than an airframe with a tiny RCS that's as loud as an airliner.  Just look at the Comanche and whatever crashed in Pakistan and you see that it's possible to design an aircraft with spinning rotors that still has a fairly low RCS. 

If they really wanted to get exotic but stick to proven tech, then there's no reason why a ducted fan design like the X-22 with radar-dispersing grates over the props might be an option as well.
Huge trade-offs either way.  Frankly I think by the middle of this century the only way to make a stealth flying vehicle will be to make the radar software "not" see the data from the hardware.  I am a big fan of quiet and the ability to land where the bad guys are not looking.  Hard to do with a starch wing turbine.

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #153 on: January 04, 2014, 03:35:04 pm »
Is "Senior Citizen" related to MC-X Commando Spirit?

From Global Security:

Source:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/mc-x.htm

Quote
MC-X Commando Spirit
SOF Future Aircraft

Air Force Special Operations Command [AFSOC] is looking at a replacement for its MC-130 to complement the V-22 in the years beyond 2010 with a project called the MC-X. A potential special operations stealth airlifter, the MC-X, was the subject of a McDonnell Douglas study undertaken by the USAF completed in 1997. The primary focus of the study is infrared (IR) and radar cross section, and powerplant and propulsion systems for airlifters.

A new study of potential replacements of the C-130 transports, tankers and gunships began in 2002. Characteristics for the new MC-X aircraft, which would be smaller than the C-130, include three pallet positions, stealth, high-subsonic speeds, improved maneuverability, short or vertical takeoff and landing, and the ability to fly long range missions.

This program funds RDT&E of an advanced technology aircraft capable of meeting Special Operations Forces [SOF] long-range airlift requirements. It will provide exfiltration capability on missions exceeding the effective range of SOF vertical lift aircraft (including the CV-22) and additionally serves as a replacement for MC-130 Combat Talon Fleet in long-range infiltration and resupply roles. It builds upon future SOF aircraft studies. The system should be able to self-deploy (2400nm), Combat Radius (1000nm), STOL w/max fuel and 4000 lbs on standard day @ sea level (1500ft over 50 ft obstacle), VTOL w/4000lbs @ mid-mission point (4000ft/85 degrees F), High speed (250-400ktas) night adverse weather capable, low to moderate signature, have a system reliability of 92% with an 85% fix rate (4hrs), capable of performing clandestine missions, carrier operations, and with a survivable ground environment under hovering aircraft.

A primary lift system to accomplish this could be a stealth airlifter, since surprise is critical to success in SOF precision operations. Primary attributes that need to be incorporated into the stealth airlifter are low observability, high speed, long range, global reach, increased payload, reliability, and durability. This new airlifter could also possess vertical take-off and landing (VTOL), armament, and an array of emission support sensors.
M-X Advanced Special Operations Forces (SOF) Air Mobility Platform

AFSOC has worldwide responsibility for the Special Operations Forces (SOF) Mobility mission area, which includes rapid, global airlift and recovery of personnel and equipment through hostile or denied airspace to conduct special clandestine operations. AFSOC's capabilities must accommodate all operational and physical environments, especially at night, at low altitude, in adverse weather, and over all terrain.

Historically, SOF's niche has been to go where no one else can go, do what no one else can do, and return undetected. The exponentially increasing capabilities and arrays of threats to aircraft and ground forces will make this a difficult niche in which to maintain a robust capability in the 2018-2030 timeframe.

By 2018, for instance, AFSOC believes that a new capability, the M-X, will be required to provide the President and the Secretary of Defense a full range/spectrum of options for employment of SOF. The M-X is envisioned to provide SOF with an enhanced air mobility capability in denied or hostile airspace. It should be able to conduct undetected infiltration/exfiltration (infil/exfil) penetration of sophisticated integrated air defense systems, and possess the speed/range/defensive systems to survive if detected.

This enables SOF to be airlifted deep into and out of defended airspace and provides SOF the critical element of tactical surprise by reducing the time between detection, target engagement, and exfiltration. Minimizing time between detection and SOF actions is key to successful special operations and reduces the time enemy forces have to counter SOF operations.

The M-X needs to have "agility in the objective area". USTOL over a 50-foot obstacle, is desired, and VTOL, at mid-mission weights or better is highly desired. The V/USTOL capability gives SOF greater freedom of operations to take off and land in austere locations and objective areas closer to SOF targets. This also reduces the need for additional force protection assets and extended cross-country maneuver vehicles to support SOF operations. The V/USTOL capability reduces SOF?s dependence on large runways and the need for two-stage operations where troops or equipment are transferred to or from rotary-wing to fixed-wing aircraft.

The future M-X should have greater speed and range than current aircraft to rapidly deploy SOF anywhere, anytime. The M-X represents new capabilities and is not intended to be a ?follow-on? C-130-type aircraft. The M-X should fill the SOF niche described above by greatly exceeding the capabilities of the MC-130 and CV-22, not replacing either. It is intended that the M-X will be part of a Family of Aircraft designed to fill a variety of missions requiring low detectability and/or high survivability such as advanced cargo transport, advanced tanker, and future gunship.

By the proposed M-X IOC date of 2018, the assumption is all MH-53 aircraft are retired and the existing fleet of MC-130 and CV-22 aircraft will be supplemented by a TBD number of M-X aircraft. In general, the MC-130/CV-22 aircraft will accomplish operations in lightly defended and/or permissive airspace, and the M-X aircraft will accomplish operations in moderate to highly defended and/or non-permissive airspace.

Key M-X design considerations include: 1) In-flight refuel capability so it can conduct operations anywhere in the world within 48 hours when staged from bases in the US; 2) Maximize payload size and weight; 3) high probability of zero detection by an Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) for both airland and airdrop missions; 4) high probability of surviving threat system engagements if detected; 5) high reliability to insure mission completion without intermediate stops for maintenance; 6) high cruise speeds at altitude and low level, MC-130H speeds at the minimum, airliner speeds preferred; 7) high probability of successful take-off and landing on unimproved landing areas and ability to turn around on the ground in minimum distance; 8) fully interoperable with Integrated Broadcast Service (IBS) Command and Control Information Surveillance and Reconnaissance (C2ISR); and 9) fully compatible with current and projected National Imagery and Mapping Agency (NIMA) products and capabilities.

In May 2003, HQ AFSOC awarded a contract [FA0021-03-RFI-0001] to the Unified and Special Operations Group of Jacobs Sverdrup Technology, Inc., to conduct an Analysis of Alternatives (AoA) for an Advanced Special Operations Forces (SOF) Air Mobility Platform. The Government requested each respondent provide sufficient technical and cost related information so the viability of each alternative or design can be fully considered. Technical information included shape, weight, range, speed, payload (weight and cube), offensive and defensive avionic subsystems and their performance assessments, communication/situational awareness subsystems, detectability characteristics (Radar Cross Section (RCS), IR, visible, ultraviolet, audibility), Vertical Take-off and Landing (VTOL) / Ultra-Short Take-off and Landing (USTOL) characteristics, landing zone performance, all estimated mission and system reliability / maintainability / human factors performance, and obsolescence projections.

Respondents were required to identify the representative infil / exfil missions and concept of operations where the proposed design would be successful, or most successful. Identify an acquisition strategy (RDT&E, Procurement, and Military Construction) and sustainment strategy (O&S) to include cost, schedule, and technical risks to reach an IOC in 2018. For this RFI only, respondents calculated development costs, production costs (to include learning curves and first units), operating and support costs, disposition costs, and other costs in terms of a 20 year operational life and the following total quantities: 10, 25, 50, 100.

The analysis of alternatives, completed in September 2004, pointed to an advanced low-observable manned aircraft as the most promising option.

By mid-2005 the requirements for a stealthy transport aircraft for special operations forces had been approved by the US warfighter community. The Advanced Special Operations Forces Air Mobility Platform (M-X) will undergo a senior-level Department of Defense review to authorise Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC) to solicit industry teams to begin early developmental activities for an aircraft that would enter service in 2018.

The M-X is envisaged as a vertical- or ultra-short- take-off and landing platform for clandestine transport of troops and supplies into and out of heavily defended hostile territory in all terrains and environmental conditions. The aircraft will augment, but not replace, AFSOC's fleet of MC-130 Combat Talon and CV-22 aircraft. Its agility and hard-to-detect infra-red, radar and acoustic signatures and low- probability-of-intercept communications signals will allow it to overcome sophisticated enemy sensors and surface-to-air missiles that might doom even upgraded MC-130s and CV-22s.

Reduced overseas basing and anti-access/area denial strategies drive the need for a high-speed, long-range air mobility platform capable of performing clandestine missions in denied, politically sensitive, or hostile airspace. The M-X will be designed to defeat sophisticated integrated air defense systems with low-observable/stealth design technology combined with advanced air defense systems electronic countermeasures for increased survivability.

The M-X needs "agility in the objective area" which means it must be able to accomplish short take-off and landings and/or hover at medium heights. The declining capability of the aging SOF C-130 fleet to penetrate deep into sophisticated hostile airspace beyond 2015 adds emphasis to this program. The 2001 Quadrennial Defense Review report specifically states "Special Operations Forces will need the ability to conduct covert deep insertions over great distances."

The next 25 years will see the proliferation of infrared (IR), radar-guided, and directed energy (DE) threats that will render many existing aircraft obsolete by the end of this period. Between DE and radar-guided threats current AFSOF [Air Force special operations forces] aircraft will have survivability challenges in the years 2016 and beyond. This evolving threat has the potential to significantly challenge the capability for Special Operations Forces (SOF) to achieve tactical surprise through clandestine air mobility due to the increasing technological capability of passive aircraft detection at further distances.

IR man-portable surface-to-air missiles, already a significant hazard to AFSOC aircraft, will be an increasingly dangerous threat as more capable missile systems with advanced counter-countermeasures proliferate. Furthermore, the traditional AFSOC tactic of avoiding MANPADS [man-portable air defense system] by operating mostly at night will become less effective as America's enemies acquire more night vision devices.

Emerging as a serious threat to AFSOF aircraft, the technology in radar-guided missiles is rapidly improving. Systems like the SA-10, SA-11, SA-12, and SA-20 (formerly SA-10C) are formidable systems capable of engaging targets at long ranges and at low altitudes. Recent articles in military journals describe the next generation of Russian-designed missile systems having ranges of over 240 nautical miles, altitude capability down to 1-meter above the ground level at those distances, and the capability of outmaneuvering most aircraft. Many of today's missiles and most future radar missiles will incorporate various types of anti-jamming technologies, which make them difficult to defeat.

Offline fightingirish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #154 on: July 13, 2014, 10:45:54 am »
Found it in another FATE-related program paper ca.1997



For flateric!  ;) :)


Here the Secret Stealth STVOL Transport concept from McDonnell Douglas. It was a part of the Advanced Transport Technology Mission Analysis (ATTMA) study from 1987/1988.
It had 6 lift engines with 158 kn each and two flight engines with 127 kn in the wing roots, so it could fly a 4g manoeuvre at 850 km/h.
I also added another STVOL Transport concept from McDonnell Douglas, this one powered with 4 tilt-rotors. The 4 engines are in or over the fuselage. This concept was not stealthier than the first concept, but its flight characteristics at low speed were better.


Source: Bill Sweetman - Kurzstartfähige Flugzeuge der Zukunft - Interavia Germany, March 1988 , pages 261 - 264


If Bill Sweetman reads this post, he might be kindly to post a summary of his article in this forum.  :)
Slán,
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Slán ist an Irish Gaelic word for Goodbye.  :)

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McDonnell Douglas Model 225 painting by "The Artist" Michael Burke (Tavush) 2018, found at deviantart.com and at Secret Projects Forum » Research Topics » User Artwork » McDonnell Douglas Model 225 Painting

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #155 on: July 13, 2014, 11:17:30 am »
thank you! I suspect Bill is very busy now with RIAT and Farnborough.

(we need buy you a scanner)
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Online Triton

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #156 on: July 13, 2014, 11:28:10 am »
Thank you, fightingirish.

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #157 on: July 16, 2014, 04:13:57 am »
thanks to fightingirish for heads up
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 04:25:08 am by flateric »
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Offline hesham

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« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 05:39:05 am by flateric »

Offline RavenOne

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #159 on: February 17, 2015, 01:45:01 pm »
Hi all

Happy New Year and wondering, is there any proof that a prototype or two flown, if not tested in combat from Desert Storm to Iraqi Freedom / Enduring Freedom?

There was an AirForcesMonthly special report magazine which reached the magazine shelves at WH Smiths etc in the summer of 1998 about stealth warplanes. The section on Senior Citizen had a sentence about one night over Baghdad, where a Marine Recon sniper with a dozen important kills to his name, was dropped out of a transport but would not state what for security reasons. He claimed CENTCOM ordered nothing but stealth a/c were allowed to operate over the capital during Desert Storm on this particular night. So if 2 + 2 = 4 in this case, the sniper would be in a low observable transport not in any of Janes or Flight International listing.

Anyone's best guess would be nothing more exotic than a  MC-130H Combat Talon II from either the 1st SOW or the 39th SOW but ....is there anything that could be hung onto the Marine's word.....

Cheers




Offline TomS

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #160 on: February 17, 2015, 02:51:46 pm »
Color me skeptical about the story
  There's nothing to indicate that any ground forces were inserted into Baghdad during Desert Storm, much less by super secret stealth transport.

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #161 on: February 17, 2015, 07:58:51 pm »
Quote
OBJECTIVE: AFSOC Mission Area Plans identify signature deficiencies for current transport aircraft. Next generation transports will require reduced observables across the threat spectrum to satisfy SOF mission requirements. However, there is no precedence for installation of efficient large fan propulsion units into advanced low observable air vehicles. Due to recent fighter/attack aircraft development efforts, technology readiness for some air induction components is considered medium to high, and promising technologies for exhaust nozzle components are beginning to evolve. This effort will determine propulsion sensitivities by integrating air induction components, fan propulsion units, and exhaust nozzle components into conceptual low observable transport configurations. High payoff technologies will be identified for inclusion in follow-on full scale development. Operability problems with fan propulsion units installed in low observable configurations will also be identified. Key factors considered are balanced low observables (IR, RF, acoustic), and propulsion system integration with powered high lift devices for STOL. SOF infil/exfil is expected to have the most demanding requirements, but technology derived from this effort will also be applicable to other medium size transport missions (tankers, gunships, airborne command and control, anti-submarine warfare, reconnaissance, etc.) This effort is coordinated with current air vehicle configuration development and advanced transport structures development.

TECHNICAL APPROACH: Trade studies of candidate propulsion components will be conducted via comparison of estimated system performance with these components integrated into a low observable airframe. Performance estimates will be obtained from empirical databases or advanced computational analyses. Promising candidates will be identified by air vehicle performance metrics including cruise range, STOL capability, detectability. Performance estimates and fan unit operability will be verified experimentally by standard subscale aero-propulsion wind tunnel test methods. Signature levels will also be verified by standard subscale RF range tests, IR measurements in conjunction with the wind tunnel tests, and exhaust nozzle acoustic chambers. Trade studies will be completed within the first year (Jun 97). Experimental databases for follow-on design and development will be available during the third year (Sep 98).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 10:54:29 pm by PaulMM (Overscan) »

Offline sublight is back

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #162 on: February 18, 2015, 06:57:13 am »
Where did this come from?

Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #163 on: February 22, 2015, 12:16:46 pm »

SENIOR CITIZEN was PE code 0401316F, a tactical airlift operational support program. In FY93 this PE code disappeared from the budget.


There has never been any *concrete* link between this program and special operations or R&D. At the time that SENIOR CITIZEN was active there were other, unclassified efforts to develop V/STOL airlift and the connection was inferred by several people.


In 1993 and 1994 test activity that *could* have been V/STOL aircraft were observed in and around the Nevada test ranges. It's now known that in the late 80s/early 90s Lockheed was contracted by DARPA to research new low observable V/STOL approaches for small strike fighters (GHOST HAWK). It is also now known that several contractors were working on V/STOL concepts for special operations applications as part of a series of DoD efforts. It is important to keep in mind that special operations were a much lower national priority at the time than today. It would have been very difficult to fund new fixed wing aircraft development for special operations needs.


The links between the SENIOR CITIZEN program and low observable V/STOL SOF concepts are very tenuous.


0401129F was THEME CASTLE, an airlift operations program. Other airlift operations programs of that period were things like funding for operational C-5 squadrons. THEME CASTLE was active during the same period that SENIOR CITIZEN was, but there has never been any other connection between the two.

Offline Avimimus

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #164 on: February 22, 2015, 07:31:20 pm »
Thank you for the thoroughness. It is well appreciated.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #165 on: February 23, 2015, 03:25:59 am »
Just a reminder that we have a topic here dedicated to SOFTA (mostly Burt Rutan's Scaled proposals as a subcontractor to Vought):

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20555.0

Of course, SOFTA may or may not be related to Senior Citizen, but I think it's good to have a cross-reference to it from here.

Offline Skyblazer

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #166 on: February 23, 2015, 03:58:15 am »
As an afterthought about the possible connection between SOFTA and Senior Citizen (which has often been hinted/suggested/assumed but never clearly evidenced), here's an excerpt from a message sent by Burt Rutan himself:

Quote
I do not think I can discuss senior citizen in any way.

Note that he didn't say: "I don't know what the hell you're talking about"... To me, his reply indicates at least that:

1°) Burt knows full well about Senior Citizen.
2°) If he knows about it, chances are Scaled Composites must have been involved in it.
3°) If Burt didn't feel free to discuss it a couple of years ago then Senior Citizen must have been technologically-sensitive enough a program that it still fell under the veil of secrecy 20 years after the program's entry disappeared from budget lists.

From which we may infer that IF there was an article built at the time, however experimental, it featured technology that is still relevant to current operational articles. Thoughts anyone?

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #167 on: January 07, 2016, 04:11:37 am »
...
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline flateric

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Offline xstatic3000

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #169 on: April 02, 2017, 10:42:17 am »
....Came across this while going through my photo library on an old hard drive. I honestly can't remember where it came from, but I didn't see that it had been posted in this thread. Quite a bit of Northrop "family resemblance" to Tacit Blue, B2 and YF-23, IMHO.

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #170 on: April 02, 2017, 04:31:50 pm »
Thank you for heads up!
Seems to be NAR/RI 1992 white world design - among others in this treasure cave source document.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a269069.pdf
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 04:52:21 pm by flateric »
"There are many disbelievers in
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Offline sublight is back

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #171 on: April 02, 2017, 06:26:26 pm »
Thank you for heads up!
Seems to be NAR/RI 1992 white world design - among others in this treasure cave source document.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a269069.pdf

Is there supposed to be some connection between this and the CREST requirements, or does that link point to the wrong doc?

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #172 on: April 02, 2017, 07:43:10 pm »
First question that comes to mind is 'have you seen the document further than cover page?'))
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Sundog

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #173 on: April 02, 2017, 08:01:09 pm »
Thank you for heads up!
Seems to be NAR/RI 1992 white world design - among others in this treasure cave source document.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a269069.pdf

Is there supposed to be some connection between this and the CREST requirements, or does that link point to the wrong doc?

The link is to the correct document.

Offline sublight is back

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #174 on: April 02, 2017, 09:28:48 pm »
Thank you for heads up!
Seems to be NAR/RI 1992 white world design - among others in this treasure cave source document.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a269069.pdf

Is there supposed to be some connection between this and the CREST requirements, or does that link point to the wrong doc?

The link is to the correct document.

Ok, so the craft posted by Xstatic, is somehow in the 200 page CREST document on ejection seats? I took a cursory look through, and I'm only seeing studies on ejection seats. Unless I'm just not getting the April fools joke?

Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #175 on: April 02, 2017, 09:50:15 pm »
Somehow yes. Ejection seats are ejecting from _some_vehicles_, usually aircrafts.
Stuff starts at p.65 in short.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline xstatic3000

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #176 on: April 03, 2017, 04:43:49 am »
Thanks Flateric! That's the one.

According to a post by AeroFranz in our CREST thread, this appears to have been a Rockwell design:

Re: North American/Rockwell CREST,and some projects

If so, it seems that just about everyone was studying LO VTOL/VSTOL transports in the late 80's and early 90's.

I'm wondering if we have reached a fork in the path at this point - could this apparent Rockwell design, along with the other VTOL/VSTOL concepts in this thread, have been part of proposals for USMC's THUNDER CAT project?

And could the LTV/Scaled SOFTA proposals, as well as Northrop's SMOCA concept, been in response to DARPA's special operations/low-intensity conflict (SO/LIC) requirements?

Offline RAP

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Offline Antonio

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Lockheed MMSA art
« Reply #178 on: July 23, 2017, 02:17:51 am »
Lockheed Multi Mission Support Aircraft concept from early 90's

Offline flateric

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Re: Lockheed MMSA art
« Reply #179 on: July 23, 2017, 08:23:26 am »
..
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline TSARb

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #180 on: September 19, 2017, 04:38:02 am »
It looks like subj, doesn't it?


0:46


Offline Avimimus

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #181 on: September 19, 2017, 07:56:45 am »
I think that is a much smaller aircraft. I'm trying to remember the name of the proposal - but I believe it was for an observation UCAV with a couple of hellfires. Of course, it could have inherited some of the R&D effort.

Offline AeroFranz

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #182 on: September 19, 2017, 08:18:58 am »
VARIOUS
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics.   TSR.2 got the first three right - Sir Sydney Camm

Online Triton

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #183 on: September 19, 2017, 08:20:12 am »
Lockheed Martin VTOL Advanced Reconnaissance Insertion Organic Unmanned System (VARIOUS).

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3729.0.html

Offline antigravite

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #184 on: September 25, 2017, 11:52:18 am »
Hi,

SAP moderator posted on the reddit thread a "senior citizen" related document which has been auctioned on the bay last week, as it seems. I have not been able to track down the original (source) bay auction page. Here is what I have:

thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/SpecialAccess/comments/7133py/found_on_ebay_somebody_selling_concept_art_for/

image:
https://i.redd.it/svnmjrjkhumz.jpg

File name unchanged.

Enjoy.

A.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 12:07:55 pm by antigravite »
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Offline flateric

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #185 on: September 25, 2017, 01:34:55 pm »
I have not been able to track down the original (source) bay auction page.
Good starting point https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg310605.html#msg310605
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline antigravite

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #186 on: September 26, 2017, 10:06:38 am »
I have not been able to track down the original (source) bay auction page.
Good starting point https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,413.msg310605.html#msg310605

oh my !!!!
Apologies to all!!!
I went too fast on this thread and it escaped my attention!!!!
I am very confused. :-[

A.
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Offline quellish

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Re: Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"
« Reply #187 on: February 13, 2018, 09:02:08 pm »
"Beyond the fleet of C-130 variants, the command’s future was now tied to the CV-22 and increased utilization of RPVs and possibly other “specialty” fixedwing aircraft that were beginning to appear."

Air University Press. On a Steel Horse I Ride: A History of the MH-53 Pave Low Helicopter in War and Peace (Kindle Locations 9347-9348). Pennyhill Press. Kindle Edition.

"The AFSOC staff began detailed planning for the move. The base was projected to receive AC- and MC-130s, possibly CV-22s, RPVs as they continued to develop, and various other unspecified “low signature” aircraft. It was done— AFSOC would finally get its western base. Conspicuously absent, though, was any mention of MH-53s."

Air University Press. On a Steel Horse I Ride: A History of the MH-53 Pave Low Helicopter in War and Peace (Kindle Locations 9354-9356). Pennyhill Press. Kindle Edition.

"I considered it my responsibility to take that core competence of SOF culture and airmanship and push that out to other aspects of SOF, whether it’s CV-22 or the blue airplanes that we are now flying at Cannon AFB."

Air University Press. On a Steel Horse I Ride: A History of the MH-53 Pave Low Helicopter in War and Peace (Kindle Locations 9533-9534). Pennyhill Press. Kindle Edition.


It is not clear if the "specialty", "low signature", or "blue" aircraft refer to the 318th SOS PC-12s or something else.

Offline flateric

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"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works