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Author Topic: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper  (Read 249520 times)

Offline Mr London 24/7

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #480 on: December 07, 2015, 01:59:29 pm »

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #481 on: February 13, 2019, 04:31:49 am »
Morning all.

"Among the classified products produced under his Boeing tenure were the stealth helicopters involved in the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, which were based on technology developed for the Boeing-Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche helicopter the Army had canceled."

http://airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2019/February%202019/George-K-Muellner-1943-2019.aspx?fbclid=IwAR1LiPAHlWNTRBWZvCff1lzP6zYPJGPTmEZNA8vL7-hVITrEUT2KfDy8bIk

Offline TomS

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #482 on: February 13, 2019, 07:54:47 am »
Now, that is interesting, and certainly lends credence to the position that the Bin Laden raid helos were a new design (presumably with parts adapted from the S-70 and possibly other aircraft), rather than being simply Black Hawks with minor modifications.

Offline Sundog

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #483 on: February 13, 2019, 10:33:38 am »
Now, that is interesting, and certainly lends credence to the position that the Bin Laden raid helos were a new design (presumably with parts adapted from the S-70 and possibly other aircraft), rather than being simply Black Hawks with minor modifications.

IIRC, the original LHX program also looked at a small utility version, besides just the scout. My guess is they took that work and scaled it up to fit the Blackhawk's mechanical systems, so in a sense, mainly just the airframe was new, in a typical "Skunk works" fashion. Or should I say Phantom Works? ;)

Offline Flyaway

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #484 on: February 13, 2019, 04:07:55 pm »
Now, that is interesting, and certainly lends credence to the position that the Bin Laden raid helos were a new design (presumably with parts adapted from the S-70 and possibly other aircraft), rather than being simply Black Hawks with minor modifications.

IIRC, the original LHX program also looked at a small utility version, besides just the scout. My guess is they took that work and scaled it up to fit the Blackhawk's mechanical systems, so in a sense, mainly just the airframe was new, in a typical "Skunk works" fashion. Or should I say Phantom Works? ;)

Are you saying it was a Blackhawk under the skin just with a different body?

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #485 on: February 13, 2019, 04:22:33 pm »
Could they really have achieved meaningful acoustic reductions with such an arrangement?

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #486 on: February 13, 2019, 04:35:47 pm »
Yes, according to most responsible and authoritative reporting going back to 1987.

Offline Colonial-Marine

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #487 on: February 13, 2019, 04:56:59 pm »
In my opinion abandoning the light utility variant of the LHX was a big mistake and certainly didn't help save the RAH-66 from the chopping block years later. I'm glad it seems something came from all that work at least.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #488 on: February 13, 2019, 07:25:20 pm »
The two versions would have had the same engines and rotor system.

What would have been brought over to the LO Hawk would have been flight controls and blade aerodynamics.

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #489 on: February 13, 2019, 07:36:33 pm »
Yes, according to most responsible and authoritative reporting going back to 1987.

Despite the absence of available noise reduction options/retrofits
for the S-70/UH-60 family + derivatives (S-76 and S-92)?

With ever tightening noise regulations, you should have seen something by now.
 

Offline LowObservable

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #490 on: February 14, 2019, 04:30:01 am »
Not necessarily. LO generally involves compromises and the civil operator may not care enough about noise to accept them.

And then there's the rather obvious point that "quiet" in an urban, civilian environment is not the same as "quiet" when you're trying to get the jump on a twitchy foe in the middle of the night, in a mid-sized town in Pakistan.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 04:57:47 am by LowObservable »

Offline TomS

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #491 on: February 14, 2019, 05:34:22 am »
Yes, according to most responsible and authoritative reporting going back to 1987.

Despite the absence of available noise reduction options/retrofits
for the S-70/UH-60 family + derivatives (S-76 and S-92)?

With ever tightening noise regulations, you should have seen something by now.

I'm not super familiar with helicopter noise regs, but it looks like the new, more stringent Stage 3 rules only apply to new helicopter types, so there may not be a pressing market for hushkits on existing aircraft. 

Also, the lack of commercial S-70s might be a factor -- there really don't seem to be any true civilian users at all, just military and a few paramilitary or police users. 


Offline TomcatViP

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #492 on: February 14, 2019, 12:10:53 pm »
And the S-70 is heavier. Built for the military. Heavier, more lift (at eq. representative rpm), more noise. It would be like comparing an armored car with a Prius.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 12:12:35 pm by TomcatViP »

Offline marauder2048

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #493 on: February 14, 2019, 01:56:14 pm »

And then there's the rather obvious point that "quiet" in an urban, civilian environment is not the same as "quiet" when you're trying to get the jump on a twitchy foe in the middle of the night, in a mid-sized town in Pakistan.

The CRH-60 has no acoustic reductions; is there a third type of "quiet" for CSAR?

Offline RavenOne

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Re: Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper
« Reply #494 on: February 15, 2019, 04:47:12 pm »
Yes, according to most responsible and authoritative reporting going back to 1987.

Despite the absence of available noise reduction options/retrofits
for the S-70/UH-60 family + derivatives (S-76 and S-92)?

With ever tightening noise regulations, you should have seen something by now.

I'm not super familiar with helicopter noise regs, but it looks like the new, more stringent Stage 3 rules only apply to new helicopter types, so there may not be a pressing market for hushkits on existing aircraft. 

Also, the lack of commercial S-70s might be a factor -- there really don't seem to be any true civilian users at all, just military and a few paramilitary or police users.

Yes there are a lot of former army UH-60A hitting the commercial marketplace ...in last few years.

And S-70i International Blackhawk entering service with likes of LA County FD, Polish Police etc

Here’s Heliops poster of all commercial UH-60A and S-70i

Cheers