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Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper

riggerrob

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Odd, because the tail hanging over that Pakistani fence looked more like a much-modified Sikorsky S-76.
 

Mr London 24/7

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...Approximately five kits were produced and fielded (with the 101st), and I understand that at least 3 were deployed during Desert Storm. The word we got was that the kits were a maintenance headache, and portions were removed in the desert, and use of the kits was abandoned shortly after. I have also heard rumours that further development of the kit continued...

FWIW in relation to the reference about the 101st, an apparent former member posted in reply to the thread in 2011 that:

We got 3 of these EH's in the 101st, 4/17th Cav while I was there and I was assigned 658. We put these on and took them off in the hangar and they only came out at night, I always flew with my aircraft and we went into hot gas at just before dusk and I had to go and confiscate film from someone "trying to not get caught" in the refuel shack. It had airspeed and other restrictions as well. We never used them on missions though, they just were a pain in the neck. The Sikorsky crew that came with them to show us us the system worked was a bunch of great guys though.

So that would be 87-24658.
 
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TomcatViP

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I wonder: would the kit for the Apache have been available for Desert Storm? I am thinking at the infamous DEAD mission on first night...
 

TomS

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Except that the apaches were escorted by even larger MH-53 PaveLows:

1091apache

The Pave Lows were pathfinders, but they stopped 9 miles out and let the Apaches go in on their own another 5 miles.

But they had some serious fuel issues on that mission, so I doubt they'd have wanted to load the Apaches down with a bolt-on stealth kit.
 

_Del_

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Except that the apaches were escorted by even larger MH-53 PaveLows:

1091apache
Which depending on what version of the story is being told, never came within 30 miles of the radar sites. And according to other accounts, actually illuminated for the Apaches. There's probably more to TFNormandy than we'll see in print anytime soon.
 

RavenOne

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Except that the apaches were escorted by even larger MH-53 PaveLows:

1091apache
Which depending on what version of the story is being told, never came within 30 miles of the radar sites. And according to other accounts, actually illuminated for the Apaches. There's probably more to TFNormandy than we'll see in print anytime soon.

Are you thinking what I am th8nking comparing It to the general knowledge and assumptions the TR-3 acted as forward designator for the F-117A during Desert Storm?

cheers
 

_Del_

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I don't think there's enough information to make me think anything so exciting. I just know there have been multiple discrepancies in the first hand accounts, which one would expect to be more uniform. There could be a number of explanations, starting at something as mundane as bad memories, but it suggests to me that we haven't gotten the full story.
 

riggerrob

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Yes dear Del,

And the US Special Operations Command prefers that public information be a decade or more behind the times, because they might have to repeat that raid.
Remember that Al Queda, PLO, FLQ, Boko Haram, etc. also read news feeds.
 

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fightingirish

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Anyhow slightly digressing ..
My first thought is, that IMHO this is a sensor system to detect rocket-propelled grenades.
Like a real-time millimetre wave imaging and detection system to maintain the helicopter pilot's situational awareness during critical battle situations.
The picture was taken on August 6th, 2020. And Extortion 17 was on that day nine years ago.:( The date might just be a coincidence.
 
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TomcatViP

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It's probably a HPMW kit (2x 2x) with ~90deg arc coverage each (I presume that the mount is symtrical on each side).
Defensive primarily with a probable secondary offensive capability.
 

coanda

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It's interesting, the close up picture looks like the black pads are arrays of some kind, maybe even LED arrays for what I can see. It looks to me like one column of arrays is masked by what appears to be mounting plates for another piece of equipment. you could be right, the forward and aft pointing planar faces could well be the actual effectors rather than mounting plates, considering that the opposing faces have blue wiring connections.

The blue cabling is indicative of power connections rather than flight test gauging (strains etc). The arrays appear to be mounted within the cabin supported on a tubular structure.

As an aside, always happy to see a Thundercats logo!
 
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coanda

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Looked at it again.

I think the black pads are radiators. The blue 'wiring' is tubing for coolant. The radiators are connected in rows.
 

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Fluff

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Anyhow slightly digressing ..
My first thought is, that IMHO this is a sensor system to detect rocket-propelled grenades.
Like a real-time millimetre wave imaging and detection system to maintain the helicopter pilot's situational awareness during critical battle situations.
The picture was taken on August 6th, 2020. And Extortion 17 was on that day nine years ago.:( The date might just be a coincidence.
But a big area underneath the aircraft is shielded, by the fuel bulges.
 

coanda

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Anyhow slightly digressing ..
My first thought is, that IMHO this is a sensor system to detect rocket-propelled grenades.
Like a real-time millimetre wave imaging and detection system to maintain the helicopter pilot's situational awareness during critical battle situations.
The picture was taken on August 6th, 2020. And Extortion 17 was on that day nine years ago.:( The date might just be a coincidence.
But a big area underneath the aircraft is shielded, by the fuel bulges.

When you spend a lot of your operational flight time at 100ft or so, it is probable that your main threats are not underneath you.

You'll note the aircraft has LAIRCM/DIRCM AN/AAQ-24 fitted to hopefully deal with IR guided missiles for when you are in the MANPADS ideal envelope . This new kind of device appears to be more 'area defence' for a 90 degree sweep which would be more in line with defeating RPGs
 

yasotay

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I think the SOAR 47 community has decided to take on the SOAR 60 community on who can have the most parasite drag on their aircraft. Then there is - "I'm sorry sir we can only take 5 operators due to all the ASE gear we have on board."
 

Josh_TN

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The diagonal bricks at the center of each array remind of the ESM system on MH060s. No idea what the whole arrangement could be for but the presence of two sets of diagonal faces make me think some kind of direction finding is going on as part of the system.
 

TomcatViP

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Looked at it again.

I think the black pads are radiators. The blue 'wiring' is tubing for coolant. The radiators are connected in rows.
Nice catch but the blue line is probably not for coolant. You have plastic straps attaching parallel lines tightly (would chocke the flow) and metallic protection cover each time the line could scratch a corner (you won't do that for a cooling line as you want the flow unrestricted).

@Mark S. : there is what looks like a meshed plastic/metallic cover on each panel (see @coanda picture). IMHO It won't be there if those were IR flood light.

Notice also the placement of the cover (painted) on each vertical module: front module facing forward and rear, aft. Hence the 4x90deg coverage envioned earlier.
 
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coanda

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Looked at it again.

I think the black pads are radiators. The blue 'wiring' is tubing for coolant. The radiators are connected in rows.
Nice catch but the blue line is probably not for coolant. You have plastic straps attaching parallel lines tightly (would chocke the flow) and metallic protection cover each time the line could scratch a corner (you won't do that for a cooling line as you want the flow unrestricted).

@Mark S. : there is what looks like a meshed plastic/metallic cover on each panel (see @coanda picture). IMHO It won't be there if those were IR flood light.

Notice also the placement of the cover (painted) on each vertical module: front module facing forward and rear, aft. Hence the 4x90deg coverage envioned earlier.

I'm happy that they're radiators and the blue lines are for coolant gas. The tubing isn't pinched tightly enough to restrict the flow of gas refrigerant. I thought the tubing looked familiar, I've seen that blue tubing used for exactly this purpose. It's what made me go back and look at the picture again. The corner speed tape protection is against chafing of a tight install and airframe vibrations. Its a good install.
 
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Fluff

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Looked at it again.

I think the black pads are radiators. The blue 'wiring' is tubing for coolant. The radiators are connected in rows.
Nice catch but the blue line is probably not for coolant. You have plastic straps attaching parallel lines tightly (would chocke the flow) and metallic protection cover each time the line could scratch a corner (you won't do that for a cooling line as you want the flow unrestricted).

@Mark S. : there is what looks like a meshed plastic/metallic cover on each panel (see @coanda picture). IMHO It won't be there if those were IR flood light.

Notice also the placement of the cover (painted) on each vertical module: front module facing forward and rear, aft. Hence the 4x90deg coverage envioned earlier.

I'm happy that they're radiators and the blue lines are for coolant gas. The tubing isn't pinched tightly enough to restrict the flow of gas refrigerant. I thought the tubing looked familiar, I've seen that blue tubing used for exactly this purpose. It's what made me go back and look at the picture again. The corner speed tape protection is against chafing of a tight install and airframe vibrations. Its a good install.
If you wanted x amount of cooling, you would stick a pinto radiator, with the draggy profile facing forward. The 'pipes' are too small, and thats a hugely complex system to cool something on board down.

I'm with Josh, the bump in the middle is to prevent any reflections onto the other detectors, its some form of DF. Taking 2 readings, would give some triangulation on whatever it is they are looking for.
 

coanda

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Looked at it again.

I think the black pads are radiators. The blue 'wiring' is tubing for coolant. The radiators are connected in rows.
Nice catch but the blue line is probably not for coolant. You have plastic straps attaching parallel lines tightly (would chocke the flow) and metallic protection cover each time the line could scratch a corner (you won't do that for a cooling line as you want the flow unrestricted).

@Mark S. : there is what looks like a meshed plastic/metallic cover on each panel (see @coanda picture). IMHO It won't be there if those were IR flood light.

Notice also the placement of the cover (painted) on each vertical module: front module facing forward and rear, aft. Hence the 4x90deg coverage envioned earlier.

I'm happy that they're radiators and the blue lines are for coolant gas. The tubing isn't pinched tightly enough to restrict the flow of gas refrigerant. I thought the tubing looked familiar, I've seen that blue tubing used for exactly this purpose. It's what made me go back and look at the picture again. The corner speed tape protection is against chafing of a tight install and airframe vibrations. Its a good install.
If you wanted x amount of cooling, you would stick a pinto radiator, with the draggy profile facing forward. The 'pipes' are too small, and thats a hugely complex system to cool something on board down.

I'm with Josh, the bump in the middle is to prevent any reflections onto the other detectors, its some form of DF. Taking 2 readings, would give some triangulation on whatever it is they are looking for.

Disagree with all of your post fluffy. This is a far better cooling solution (for what looks like a prototype) than what you suggested. Flow of refrigerant gas is not high. Go look at the pipes on your car AC heat exchanger (radiator and heat exchanger being interchangeable terms for all practical purposes) or your refrigerator.

Whatever it is (and I'm of the opinion it is a defensive DE system using HPMW), its making a lot of heat.
 
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Fluff

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Looked at it again.

I think the black pads are radiators. The blue 'wiring' is tubing for coolant. The radiators are connected in rows.
Nice catch but the blue line is probably not for coolant. You have plastic straps attaching parallel lines tightly (would chocke the flow) and metallic protection cover each time the line could scratch a corner (you won't do that for a cooling line as you want the flow unrestricted).

@Mark S. : there is what looks like a meshed plastic/metallic cover on each panel (see @coanda picture). IMHO It won't be there if those were IR flood light.

Notice also the placement of the cover (painted) on each vertical module: front module facing forward and rear, aft. Hence the 4x90deg coverage envioned earlier.

I'm happy that they're radiators and the blue lines are for coolant gas. The tubing isn't pinched tightly enough to restrict the flow of gas refrigerant. I thought the tubing looked familiar, I've seen that blue tubing used for exactly this purpose. It's what made me go back and look at the picture again. The corner speed tape protection is against chafing of a tight install and airframe vibrations. Its a good install.
If you wanted x amount of cooling, you would stick a pinto radiator, with the draggy profile facing forward. The 'pipes' are too small, and thats a hugely complex system to cool something on board down.

I'm with Josh, the bump in the middle is to prevent any reflections onto the other detectors, its some form of DF. Taking 2 readings, would give some triangulation on whatever it is they are looking for.

Disagree with all of your post fluffy.
No problem, lets come back in 6 months, see if anyone has found out.
 

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It does look like it is set up emit a lot of something. Though I wonder how they are powering it? I wonder what the internals of the CH-47 look like with this configuration and if they can still operate as troop carriers with this kit. I know Shithooks have a lot of horse power and that's why they are great for high and dry ops, but in terms of electrical power are they well equipped for a pile of ECM? Also I still think some kind of DF is occurring as part of this system, and if so, what ever they are tracking is something that IR/UV missile warning sensors are inadequate for.
 

Fluff

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Sorry, im going to change my view.

the emitter is the central item, one facing fore, one aft, both at 45deg.

the emitter masks some of the other item, so they aren’t emitting.

now it would make sense You can see, one face is flat, one has a panel shape. I Think’ the flat is the emitter.

the 12 square things are cooling the one emitter.

so what ever it is, it gets hot.
 

coanda

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Sorry, im going to change my view.

the emitter is the central item, one facing fore, one aft, both at 45deg.

the emitter masks some of the other item, so they aren’t emitting.

now it would make sense You can see, one face is flat, one has a panel shape. I Think’ the flat is the emitter.

the 12 square things are cooling the one emitter.

so what ever it is, it gets hot.

Yep, that summarises pretty much everything I said above.
 

coanda

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It might not be a HPMW kit. Don't focus on that to find the right answer. ;)

I suppose they could be MMW Radar arrays, as fightingirish suggests. I can only think of Radar and DE that requires a lot of cooling.
 
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coanda

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It does look like it is set up emit a lot of something. Though I wonder how they are powering it? I wonder what the internals of the CH-47 look like with this configuration and if they can still operate as troop carriers with this kit. I know Shithooks have a lot of horse power and that's why they are great for high and dry ops, but in terms of electrical power are they well equipped for a pile of ECM? Also I still think some kind of DF is occurring as part of this system, and if so, what ever they are tracking is something that IR/UV missile warning sensors are inadequate for.

This seems like a proof of concept install. You can see the assemblies are built on to a tubular support structure that passes through the window apertures to fix the assemblies within the cabin, either on seat mounts or the floor (as an aerostructures engineer, that's where I would put them). My guess is that the power source is in the cabin.
 

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To get good cooling you need to maximize the surface area from which you want to remove heat from. Those flat plates are nice but don't offer much. If they had fins like you find on your typical heat sink in a computer or audio equipment then I'd agree. Flat plate heat exchangers work better transferring heat between two liquids than gases. Typically inlets and outlets aren't located together as well. Not saying they aren't but not the best design. Maybe they need all of them since they aren't that effective?
 

coanda

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To get good cooling you need to maximize the surface area from which you want to remove heat from. Those flat plates are nice but don't offer much. If they had fins like you find on your typical heat sink in a computer or audio equipment then I'd agree. Flat plate heat exchangers work better transferring heat between two liquids than gases. Typically inlets and outlets aren't located together as well. Not saying they aren't but not the best design. Maybe they need all of them since they aren't that effective?

The heat exchangers are the black parts. The full size crop I posted shows the matrix.
 

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Hi all,
Does anyone know the Radar cross section (rcs) of a black hawk helicopter from the frontal aspect? I cant find any RCS data for a black hawk all i can find is the estimated RCS difference for the S-75 composite helo compared to the S-76 metal helo which is 15 db lower for the S-75. Of course I have no starting reference for the S-76 so 15 db from what I have no clue. Im interested to know how much they lowered the frontal RCS of this black hawk.
 

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Empire

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I have managed to find RCS data for a military style transport helicopter first showing it in metal skin than covered in a multi-functional composite skin. figure 3 is metal skin RCS and figure 5 is the composite skin RCS.
 

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Jeb

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Sorry, im going to change my view.

the emitter is the central item, one facing fore, one aft, both at 45deg.

the emitter masks some of the other item, so they aren’t emitting.

now it would make sense You can see, one face is flat, one has a panel shape. I Think’ the flat is the emitter.

the 12 square things are cooling the one emitter.

so what ever it is, it gets hot.
Am I the only one who thinks those blue components look like data cables?
 

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