Assault on Bin Laden: mystery of the downed chopper

[Fluff]

'Rocky Mountain Airport'
RAM coating on the fuselage, whats the RCS on a powered Rotor? Pretty high?
My gut tells me this thing is being parked on a mountain, rotors off, transmitting something in all directions....

 

[TomcatViP]

Sorry, im going to change my view.

the emitter is the central item, one facing fore, one aft, both at 45deg.

the emitter masks some of the other item, so they aren’t emitting.

now it would make sense You can see, one face is flat, one has a panel shape. I Think’ the flat is the emitter.

the 12 square things are cooling the one emitter.

so what ever it is, it gets hot.

Am I the only one who thinks those blue components look like data cables?

High amperage cable. That would explain test article have them on the outside (any shaffing will be grounded already)

 

[coanda]

High amperage cable would be orange. The blue tubing is for refrigerants.

 

[yasotay]

High amperage cable would be orange. The blue tubing is for refrigerants.

Unless of course you are SOF and you would rather not assist in letting everyone know what you are doing.

 

[coanda]

High amperage cable would be orange. The blue tubing is for refrigerants.

Unless of course you are SOF and you would rather not assist in letting everyone know what you are doing.

yeah, that's definitely what it is...brilliant minds.

 

[TomcatViP]

Some mysterious low fly by mentioned by Bidden in his recent interview regarding the raid:

“In my view,” Biden told CNN, “there was one option there that was remaining: you could have done one more very low flight … spying down on the site” – a compound in Abbottabad – “to determine whether this was Bin Laden, because again, there was no certainty.

'To give him space': Biden reveals why he told Obama to wait on Bin Laden raid | Joe Biden | The Guardian

President-elect in new CNN film tells of agonized discussions but says he subsequently advised Obama to follow his instinct

amp.theguardian.com

 

[rooster]

Some mysterious low fly by mentioned by Bidden in his recent interview regarding the raid:

“In my view,” Biden told CNN, “there was one option there that was remaining: you could have done one more very low flight … spying down on the site” – a compound in Abbottabad – “to determine whether this was Bin Laden, because again, there was no certainty.

'To give him space': Biden reveals why he told Obama to wait on Bin Laden raid | Joe Biden | The Guardian

President-elect in new CNN film tells of agonized discussions but says he subsequently advised Obama to follow his instinct

amp.theguardian.com

What is so mysterious? There's a plethora or small drones some that look like birds......no its not a ufo or a stealthy manned recon

 

[marauder2048]

Some mysterious low fly by mentioned by Bidden in his recent interview regarding the raid:

“In my view,” Biden told CNN, “there was one option there that was remaining: you could have done one more very low flight … spying down on the site” – a compound in Abbottabad – “to determine whether this was Bin Laden, because again, there was no certainty.

'To give him space': Biden reveals why he told Obama to wait on Bin Laden raid | Joe Biden | The Guardian

President-elect in new CNN film tells of agonized discussions but says he subsequently advised Obama to follow his instinct

amp.theguardian.com

What is so mysterious? There's a plethora or small drones some that look like birds......no its not a ufo or a stealthy manned recon

The only mystery is what Biden actually said since he and Obama can't keep their story straight.
This isn't a political polemic since it's really hard to reconcile the various accounts that have emerged.

 

[TomcatViP]

@rooster: to me logically a very low flight with a small drone as you say can only be... A shave.
I sense in that quote something more consequential. And no, I am not arguing about UFO or laser kitty.
It could be a covert flight at low alt to get oblique view of the compound.

 

[RavenOne]

Yes, according to most responsible and authoritative reporting going back to 1987.

Despite the absence of available noise reduction options/retrofits
for the S-70/UH-60 family + derivatives (S-76 and S-92)?

With ever tightening noise regulations, you should have seen something by now.

I'm not super familiar with helicopter noise regs, but it looks like the new, more stringent Stage 3 rules only apply to new helicopter types, so there may not be a pressing market for hushkits on existing aircraft.

Also, the lack of commercial S-70s might be a factor -- there really don't seem to be any true civilian users at all, just military and a few paramilitary or police users.

Speaking of commercial and modified HawK ....BHI or B3 (Brainerd Firehawk and Brown Helicopter joint Venture) has got a H-60X (ex US Army UH-60A) which they use for various mods and trials from modified füel tanks / system (my pics below from Heli Expo 2016 in Louisville) To avionics trials.

 

[RavenOne]

Yes, according to most responsible and authoritative reporting going back to 1987.

Despite the absence of available noise reduction options/retrofits
for the S-70/UH-60 family + derivatives (S-76 and S-92)?

With ever tightening noise regulations, you should have seen something by now.

I'm not super familiar with helicopter noise regs, but it looks like the new, more stringent Stage 3 rules only apply to new helicopter types, so there may not be a pressing market for hushkits on existing aircraft.

Also, the lack of commercial S-70s might be a factor -- there really don't seem to be any true civilian users at all, just military and a few paramilitary or police users.

Also from attending following year Heli Expo 2017 in Dallas, so I saw BHi/B3 H-60X and this time it was configured for customer weapons trials. So here are my photos.

Cheers

 

[yasotay]

There will be more commercial S-70A in the coming years as many of the UH-60A are taken out of the active fleet. As mentioned a number of them are being bought for military use (no surprise there), but they are also being used by para-military and I believe there are a few being used for logging ops (not sure). Still pretty big helicopter for many of the commercial applications and it has to compete with purpose designed helicopters with lower operating cost.

 

[RavenOne]

There will be more commercial S-70A in the coming years as many of the UH-60A are taken out of the active fleet. As mentioned a number of them are being bought for military use (no surprise there), but they are also being used by para-military and I believe there are a few being used for logging ops (not sure). Still pretty big helicopter for many of the commercial applications and it has to compete with purpose designed helicopters with lower operating cost.

Timberline Helicopters Inc using them for supporting forestry etc (my pics from Heli Expo 2016). Also for electricity company in California PAG or PAC is using them...

But tbh any heavy logging is carried out with likes of Erickson AIrcrane or Kaman K-MAX or Super Puma.

cheers

 

[bob225]

Some little bits of info about the choppers on the raid: (updated with quotes)

LEON PANETTA: They decided to make use of these newer helicopters that had been developed because they were better able to avoid radar detection.

JEREMY BASH: We all went out to the observation post—we were given night vision goggles and parkas to stay warm—and looked out over the ridge and waited for the helicopters to emerge. To the surprise of everybody, the helicopters emerged not at the ridge we were looking at, but actually right behind us, right over our backs. It reinforced how these aircraft could come with a pretty good degree of surprise.

LEON PANETTA: They had to put the body on the helicopter, get whatever intelligence they could that was in the compound, destroy the helicopter that was down because it was classified and they did not want it falling into the hands of the Pakistanis or, more importantly, the Chinese.

MIKE LEITER: The president at the moment quipped to Bill McRaven, “You just blew up a $65 million helicopter and you don’t have enough money to buy a tape measure?”

EON PANETTA: Then it was really a question of McRaven working with the SEAL team to practice that operation. A model of the compound was built at one of our classified facilities.

‘I’d Never Been Involved in Anything as Secret as This’

The plan to kill Osama bin Laden—from the spycraft to the assault to its bizarre political backdrop—as told by the people in the room.

www.politico.com

 

[fightingirish]

The newest render is still fiction, but I hope one day to see the second helicopter in real in a museum.

The Day We Learned About The Stealth Black Hawk Used In OBL Raid.

Since 2011 we have collected the description of someone who was in Afghanistan and saw the secret MH-X Stealth Black Hawk helicopter recover after the

theaviationist.com

 

[yasotay]

Seems a little more practical than other ideas, but the "salad" on the nose doesn't help.

 

[RavenOne]

And we are still no wiser there’s a myriad of clues


- Flight Concept Division at Felker AAF, Fort Eustis

- Modified EH-60A pic from 3 decades ago

- A technical paper from near 4 decades ago on lowering radar signature and acoustics for H-60 of which drawings resemble the movie prop


Also here’s a story about one Nightstalker MH-47G crew that took part in the raid and how the CWO pilot, a graduate of the Marine Corps Marine Aviation Weapons Tactics Squadron MAWTS-1 Weapons Tactics Instructors (WTI) course said it helped him and his crew survive unwanted attention from the Pakistani F-16C.

Bin Laden Raid Pilot Says Unique Marine Air-To-Air Course Likely Saved Him From Pakistani F-16s

Ten years after the historic mission, we learn how a Marine course in air-to-air helicopter combat may have saved a Chinook from being shot down.

www.thedrive.com

cheers

 

[Q-nimbus]

And we are still no wiser there’s a myriad of clues


- Flight Concept Division at Felker AAF, Fort Eustis

- Modified EH-60A pic from 3 decades ago

- A technical paper from near 4 decades ago on lowering radar signature and acoustics for H-60 of which drawings resemble the movie prop


Also here’s a story about one Nightstalker MH-47G crew that took part in the raid and how the CWO pilot, a graduate of the Marine Corps Marine Aviation Weapons Tactics Squadron MAWTS-1 Weapons Tactics Instructors (WTI) course said it helped him and his crew survive unwanted attention from the Pakistani F-16C.

Bin Laden Raid Pilot Says Unique Marine Air-To-Air Course Likely Saved Him From Pakistani F-16s

Ten years after the historic mission, we learn how a Marine course in air-to-air helicopter combat may have saved a Chinook from being shot down.

www.thedrive.com

cheers

It’s not that hard to evade the F16’s radar in a helo when flying in low, mountainous terrain. Not only can you use the terrain to shield yourself from view, but the helicopter blades shield the helicopter from (Doppler) radar because they act as a phase locked loop; the signal/frequency that goes in goes out (very simply speaking).

So it seems the story is spiced up a bit, but the timeline doesn’t add up either; the first Pakistani planes weren’t in the air until well after the raid, by then the helicopters participating in the raid were already over the border, or at least very close.

 

[Q-nimbus]

About the SHHHHHH-60’s: I think a lot of people focus on it’s radar evading/stealth capabilities. I believe it’s true stealthiness is that it’s very, very quiet. I still wonder if the helicopter that was heard when the raid was tweeted about by a local was the Chinook that came in later, or one of the SHHHHH-60’s.

 

[RavenOne]

And we are still no wiser there’s a myriad of clues


- Flight Concept Division at Felker AAF, Fort Eustis

- Modified EH-60A pic from 3 decades ago

- A technical paper from near 4 decades ago on lowering radar signature and acoustics for H-60 of which drawings resemble the movie prop


Also here’s a story about one Nightstalker MH-47G crew that took part in the raid and how the CWO pilot, a graduate of the Marine Corps Marine Aviation Weapons Tactics Squadron MAWTS-1 Weapons Tactics Instructors (WTI) course said it helped him and his crew survive unwanted attention from the Pakistani F-16C.

Bin Laden Raid Pilot Says Unique Marine Air-To-Air Course Likely Saved Him From Pakistani F-16s

Ten years after the historic mission, we learn how a Marine course in air-to-air helicopter combat may have saved a Chinook from being shot down.

www.thedrive.com

cheers

It’s not that hard to evade the F16’s radar in a helo when flying in low, mountainous terrain. Not only can you use the terrain to shield yourself from view, but the helicopter blades shield the helicopter from (Doppler) radar because they act as a phase locked loop; the signal/frequency that goes in goes out (very simply speaking).

So it seems the story is spiced up a bit, but the timeline doesn’t add up either; the first Pakistani planes weren’t in the air until well after the raid, by then the helicopters participating in the raid were already over the border, or at least very close.

The Chinook was removing the target‘s remains after the raid

cheers

 

[yasotay]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

 

[quellish]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

FARP was inside Pakistan, 30 miles from target. Chinook arrived at the target from the FARP about 10 minutes after being called.

 

[yasotay]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

FARP was inside Pakistan, 30 miles from target. Chinook arrived at the target from the FARP about 10 minutes after being called.

Interesting. Then the delay associated with the time on ground was likely due to the amount of intelligence that was being recovered from the building. Out of curiosity, where is the information published regarding the tactical actions associated with the entire mission?

 

[quellish]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

FARP was inside Pakistan, 30 miles from target. Chinook arrived at the target from the FARP about 10 minutes after being called.

Interesting. Then the delay associated with the time on ground was likely due to the amount of intelligence that was being recovered from the building. Out of curiosity, where is the information published regarding the tactical actions associated with the entire mission?

Was posted previously in the thread:

Exclusive: Legendary special operations aviator reveals bin Laden mission details for the first time

Doug Englen talked about the bin Laden raid, and his life, for the first time in an exclusive interview with Military Times.

www.militarytimes.com

 

[rooster]

As the Admiral mentioned in the interview (the) onsite operators asked to stay around to collect all of the intel, which it seems they had not anticipated as being on site (somewhat surprising). He then mentioned that they had overstayed their time and crowds were beginning to gather, necessitating a Pakistani speaking ,member of the team to inform the crowd it was a training effort.

The Chinook was called in because the remaining Blackhawk could not lift the entire ground team, remains, and all of the intel from the site. Recall that it is said that the Chinook was used to set up the FARP for the returning Blackhawks inside Afghanistan. In this case likely carried the FARP Security Team and some of the equipment. Assuming it was called forward immediately after the first Blackhawk crashed, and assuming it was still running at the FARP at flight idle, it would likely have taken ~20 to ~30 minutes for it to get to the target area.

Of course there is possibly a healthy dose of misinformation associated with the story as well. It will likely be some time before a truly clear picture of the event is provided.

FARP was inside Pakistan, 30 miles from target. Chinook arrived at the target from the FARP about 10 minutes after being called.

Interesting. Then the delay associated with the time on ground was likely due to the amount of intelligence that was being recovered from the building. Out of curiosity, where is the information published regarding the tactical actions associated with the entire mission?

Was posted previously in the thread:

Exclusive: Legendary special operations aviator reveals bin Laden mission details for the first time

Doug Englen talked about the bin Laden raid, and his life, for the first time in an exclusive interview with Military Times.

www.militarytimes.com

Great story but I would suspect there was more than flying on that mission than 4 helicopters, i.e. something else was protecting the choppers from the pak's f16s radar.

 

[TomS]

The April/May CTC Sentinel has an interview with RADM McRaven. He mentions the helicopters in passing. Nothing earth shattering, but he notes that the "modified" aircraft had limited troop capacity compared to normal helicopters and that they were especially limited due to the altitude at Abottabad. If they had not flown the op in May, the forecast temperatures were too high to do it for several months. That feeds into the reports that the crash might be in part due to hotter than expected air temps robbing the aircraft of lift at the critical moment.

https://ctc.usma.edu/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/CTC-SENTINEL-042021.pdf

 

[yasotay]

High - Hot has always been the bane of VTOL aircraft. The Hindu-Kush define that.

 

[youROKer]

It seems to be a fresh photo from Afghanistan. The source is unknown to me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/p51xw3 View: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/p51xw3/what_helicopter_is_this_stealth_uh60_black_hawk/

 

[Grey Havoc]

Hmmmm.

 

[Silencer1]

It seems to be a fresh photo from Afghanistan. The source is unknown to me.

It's first Taliban-designed and produced helicopter, made according to Sharia's laws of aerodynamic.

 

[Manuducati]

More pictures...
Low resolution, distortion and sun reflection on a standard Blackhawk or... ?

 

[yasotay]

Standard UH-60M. Why on earth would they keep the Super-Duperhawk in country at this late date given that most, if not all, of the customers are gone? Anyone left there is not going to be buzzing around in a super special helicopter, they are likely trying to look very local on a scooter.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

Same angle - Yastotay nailed it...

Sikorsky BLACK HAWK Helicopter

The Sikorsky BLACK HAWK is the primary medium lift helicopter for the U.S. Army performing a wide range of missions that encompass Air Assault, MEDEVAC, CSAR, Command and Control, and VIP transport.

www.lockheedmartin.com

 

[Jeb]

Standard UH-60M. Why on earth would they keep the Super-Duperhawk in country at this late date given that most, if not all, of the customers are gone? Anyone left there is not going to be buzzing around in a super special helicopter, they are likely trying to look very local on a scooter.

There are apparently a couple of State Department-operated H-60s that have a pointier nose; saw pics of them parked in Kabul from a prior date. That would explain the nose appearing to have more of a chine to it. Doesn't exactly explain WHY there are odd-mods around.

 

[yasotay]

Maybe they got them second hand from "another" agency.

 

[TomS]

Standard UH-60M. Why on earth would they keep the Super-Duperhawk in country at this late date given that most, if not all, of the customers are gone? Anyone left there is not going to be buzzing around in a super special helicopter, they are likely trying to look very local on a scooter.

There are apparently a couple of State Department-operated H-60s that have a pointier nose; saw pics of them parked in Kabul from a prior date. That would explain the nose appearing to have more of a chine to it. Doesn't exactly explain WHY there are odd-mods around.

They're HH-60Ls according to their FAA registries. But they sure look like M models. The pointy nose is what they hang the FLIR from.

State Department's New Black Hawks In Afghanistan Could Prove Especially Important After Withdrawal

The State Department's Air Wing could be critical to keeping Americans safe if the security situation in the country continues to deteriorate.

www.thedrive.com

 

[isayyo2]

Standard UH-60M. Why on earth would they keep the Super-Duperhawk in country at this late date given that most, if not all, of the customers are gone? Anyone left there is not going to be buzzing around in a super special helicopter, they are likely trying to look very local on a scooter.

There are apparently a couple of State Department-operated H-60s that have a pointier nose; saw pics of them parked in Kabul from a prior date. That would explain the nose appearing to have more of a chine to it. Doesn't exactly explain WHY there are odd-mods around.

They're HH-60Ls according to their FAA registries. But they sure look like M models. The pointy nose is what they hang the FLIR from.

State Department's New Black Hawks In Afghanistan Could Prove Especially Important After Withdrawal

The State Department's Air Wing could be critical to keeping Americans safe if the security situation in the country continues to deteriorate.

www.thedrive.com

Beat me to it

 

[Grey Havoc]

They're HH-60Ls according to their FAA registries. But they sure look like M models.

Bureaucratic maneuver to avoid possible certification issues?

 

[Silencer1]

Looks, like there were a lot of Black Hawk' versions currently in service by various customers and services. But, with all due respect, why they are discussed in this thread? Perhaps, they deserve their own place in SPF?

P.S. Off-topic: mysterious "stealth" helicopte, used in Bin Laden' raid, looks slightly odd, when today I see "controversial" images from Afganistan. Those special operations could be so far from the victory in whole conflict...

 

[TomS]

Looks, like there were a lot of Black Hawk' versions currently in service by various customers and services. But, with all due respect, why they are discussed in this thread? Perhaps, they deserve their own place in SPF?

Mostly the other Black Hawk variants are discussed here to explain why the pictures people saw are probably not Stealth Hawks.