WW1 Krupp-Protze

[SirCoutin]

Hello everyone,

I recently watched 2 videos by the "Great War" channel where they mention and even show modern illustrations of what the vehicle would've looked like, despite all of this, I haven't been able to find any information regarding this curious beast at all, even on books. Does anyone have any leads? Any info?

Thanks

- Coutin

 

[Apophenia]

Protze just means munitions limber. Are you referring to the Kraftprotze - Krupp's 'powered limber' concept of 1918?

If so, this lightly-armoured vehicle was meant for use as a gun tug or limber tower (to augment increasingly scarce horses for the artillery). A brief history is available here (scroll down): https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/leichte-kampfwagen-ii-lkii/

The Tanks Encyclopedia gives the alternative name "Leichte-Zugmaschiene" [1] for the Kraftprotze. And an illustration credited to the Bundesarchiv is presented (attached). This drawing is meant to show the May 1918 submission which was to be armed with a single MG 08 machine gun.

In the Summer of 1918, Krupp proposed an upgunned Kraftprotze armed with both the MG 08/15 and a 5.7 cm Maxim-Nordenfelt cannon. (If this variant was intended as a fighting tank, one assumes that the armour protection would have been improved.) However, the OHL preferred to develop Joseph Vollmer's Leichter Kampfwagen III - a rear-engined development of the LK II.

There are other images out there (and 3D models) purporting to be Krupp's Kraftprotze. Presumably, those are fantasies or mis-identifications.
__________________________________

[1] And, note, that weird spelling/misspelling is on the original drawing.

 

[SirCoutin]

Hey there Apophenia,

Thank you so much for the reply, I appreciate the information as I plan on making a 3D Model of it for some projects of mine. And yes, that is exactly what I meant by Krupp Protze. I heard it could atleast be used as a way of transporting troops, is there any truth to that?

 

[Apophenia]

... I heard it could atleast be used as a way of transporting troops, is there any truth to that?

The Kraftprotze would have had a very small crew compartment - think Medium Mark A Whippet tank for comparison.

Some of the dodgier sources mention an armoured screen fitted to the rear of the vehicle. This was to provide some protection for infantry advancing behind the Kraftprotze ... although how that role fits in with a motorized artillery limber, I cannot imagine.

 

[Apophenia]

I came across a brief mention of Krupp's Kraftprotze in a book on the Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft. Dr. Buschmann's emphasis is on DMG but she does give a Kraftprotze start date - by the APK (Artillerieprufungskommission) - of April 1917.

"Zum Transport von Geschutzen leicheteren Kalibers wurde eine sogenannte Kratzprotze entwickelt. Da die bisherigen Erfindungen auf diesem Gebiet sich als unbrauchbar erwiesen hatten, sandte die Artillerieprufungskommission im April 1917 die von ihr festgelegten Bedingungen für den Bau einer Kraftprotze an die Firma Krupp. Nach Einigung über die Konstruktionsgrundsatze wurde die Bauerlaubnis fur 5 Probefahrzeug nach Bauart KDO erteilt."

Source: Unternehmenspolitik in der Kriegswirtschaft und in der Inflation. Die Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft 1914–1923, Birgit Buschmann, Zeitschrift für Unternehmensgeschichte (ZUG), Walter de Gruyter GmbH, Berlin, January 2000, page 39

So, it seems, that the APK issued an order to construct five, new-pattern K.D.O. vehicles. But I'm not really clear on the context. Was it Krupp who received this prototype contract or DMG (the main subject of this book)?

In 1919, Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft did build two prototypes of a Typ K.D.O. - but these were four-wheeled vehicles, not tracked. (For the record, those DMG Typ K.D.O. wheeled vehicles were said to be powered by a 70 hp 4-cylinder engine, had a 2 tonne payload, and a 3.5 tonne winch pull.)

 

[Apophenia]

The more one stirs around after the Kraftprotze, the muddier the waters seem to get!

According to Yuri Pasholok, Krupp's Kraftprotze design was submitted to the OHL on 22 May 1918. One image purporting to be the Kraftprotze (1st image attached) is actually a variation on Krupp designer Georg Hagelloch's 1920 patent application drawings (2nd image attached). According to Yuri Pasholok, the Kleiner Sturmwagen (3rd image) was an odd rear-engined vehicle with a pivoting MG 08 mount at the very front of the hull. That Kleiner Sturmwagen concept (particularly its suspension) would then be improved upon in that Hagelloch patent drawing.

-- https://www.tankarchives.ca/2016/06/krupp-leichttraktor-rival-with-no-future.html

The original Kleiner Sturmwagen light tank concept was a 1917 Krupp/DMG joint effort - by Hagelloch and Erich Wölfert amongst others. This design was presented at the Krupp offices in Essen during a conference on 13 June 1918. The unbuilt Kleiner Sturmwagen concept competed unsuccessfully with ing Joseph Vollmer's LK II (which was approved for further development a week later). [1] Although draughted by the same design department around the same time, Krupp's Kleiner Sturmwagen doesn't seem to have a great deal in common with their submitted Kraftprotze concept.

According to another website - armor.kiev.ua - Vollmer and Krupp designers worked together on "an armoured artillery tractor-transporter ... developed on the LK-II chassis." An illustration (4th image) is meant to show that joint project transport design (top) and an LK II-based tow-hitched Kraftprotze concept.

-- http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWI/kaizer/kaizer5.html

Vollmer did draught two turretless LK IIs ... but both were Kraftprotze variants. According to Wolfgang Schneider and Rainer Strasheim (German Tanks in World War I: The A7V and Early Tank Development, Schiffer Publishing, Atglen, PA, 1990) that upper sideview drawing represents a Vollmer LK II Kraftprotze concept with a vehicle crew of three plus raised rear armour panels to protect a gun crew of six. The bottom drawing appears to be the Leichte-Zugmaschiene concept already discussed - ie: an LK II hull fitted with a similar fixed cupola to the upper vehicle but lacking its rear gun crew compartment.

Vollmer's LK II Kraftprotze concepts remained paper exercises - according to Strasheim, drawn mainly to "placate" OHL section head, Oberstleutnant Max Bauer. At any rate, makers Steffen & Heymann were already having trouble delivering base LK II models. I suspect that 'armor.kiev.ua' author S. Fedoseev (or article preparator Denis Tumanov?) have conflated the Vollmer and Krupp Kraftprotze designs But, in reality, these design efforts likely remained quite separate. Does anyone know for sure?

__________________________________

[1] In this case, Vollmer's position as chief designer for the Kfz-Abteilung at the Kriegsministerium obviously presented him with an 'inside' advantage over the combined industrial might of Krupp and Daimler.

On the attached drawing of the Kleiner Sturmwagen, note the large panel at the rear. This panel was reportedly meant to act as a shield to protect infantry advancing behind the Kleiner Sturmwagen.

 

[robunos]

From 'Osprey New Vanguard 127 German Panzers 1914-18', pp. 42-3

'Krupp offered an unconventional tankette design, the leichte Kraft-
protze, that was similar to postwar machine gun carrier ideas. It had a
crew of two, was armed with a single Maxim 08 machine gun, and had
folding armored shields at the rear to provide cover for infantry that were
expected to advance behind it. Twenty of these were ordered on ]une 13,
1918, but it would appear that the prototype was never completed.'



Caption reads :-

'A total of 20 Krupp leichte Kraftprotze tankettes were under construction when the war ended. No known photos survive . . .'

cheers,
Robin.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks Robin.

It is Georg Hagelloch's original Kleiner Sturmwagen concept which is illustrated here. According to Rainer Strasheim, drawings of the Kleiner Sturmwagen design were shown at that 13 June 1918 conference at Essen. However, the joint Krupp/DMG concept was outshone by the LK II. And it was Joseph Vollmer refined LK design which received an order on 17 June 1918. Here the ordering gets confused.

A revised Krupp/DMG Kleiner Sturmwagen was presented on 23 July 1918 which could be armed with either an MG 08/15 or a 5,7 cm cannon. However, by 17 July, the OHL had already issued its orders for the rival LK II. Still, on 08 August 1918, Chefkraft Max Bauer reported a decision (based on the 13 June conference) to order "270 LK II and 33 Krupp vehicles". Those orders were to be fulfilled by April 1919. But what exactly were those "33 Krupp vehicles"?

Based on the decision date (and Bauer's artillery predilections) an order for 20 Krupp/DMG Kraftprotze 'powered limbers' cannot be completely ruled out. Or perhaps the vehicle's exact role was left as 'to be determined'? However, all evidence suggests that the OHL had already decided that the simpler solution to the gun tug role was a LK II (simply tanks fitted with hitches or one of Vollmer's half-hearted turretless LK II Kraftprotze derivatives).

Alternatively, Krupp/DMG's revised Kleiner Sturmwagen may have been ordered in small numbers as an insurance plan for the LK II. A drawing of another Krupp light tank design appeared in 1920. [1] Did this represent the appearance of 23 July 1918 Krupp/DMG Kleiner Sturmwagen? Other than its rotating turret, the design shown resembles Hagelloch's 1920 patent application drawing. The tracks are obscured by armour covers but the track system proportions also look similar.

Reportedly, this turreted Krupp light tank concept was meant to carry eight troops tank desant style. But, obviously, it also had that (folding?) rear armour panel to help shield advancing infantry.

_________________

[1] Captioned "Leichter deutscher Tank mit 4,7-cm-Kanone der Friedr. Krupp-A.-G.". This 2-view drawing appeared in a 1920 supplement volume (Ergänzungsband) to the 1904 second edition of the Lexikon der gesamten Technik und ihrer Hilfswissenschaften (originally by Otto Lueger, 1843-1911).

 

[SirCoutin]

Wow guys, extremely cool finds here, I've never even heard of that 1920s Krupp Light Tank before. I'll have a book on old documentation to see if I can come up with anything.

 

[SirCoutin]

I have good news,

I did indeed find alot of documentation about the Kraftprotze development in Militärwissenschaftliche Mitteilungen. v.54. It talks about the Daimler connection as previously mentioned by Apophenia. It specifies that in 1917, the German Army Administration commissioned a two-axle, all terrain vehicle which could carry loads upto 31t. Does not specifically mention the Krupp model but it does talk about Österreicher-Fiat Werke which submitted a design in mid 1918. It seems that Daimler also provided a prototype but I couldn't understand if it was supposed to be a motorized vehicle or just a standard limber.

 

[SirCoutin]

Thanks Robin.

It is Georg Hagelloch's original Kleiner Sturmwagen concept which is illustrated here. According to Rainer Strasheim, drawings of the Kleiner Sturmwagen design were shown at that 13 June 1918 conference at Essen. However, the joint Krupp/DMG concept was outshone by the LK II. And it was Joseph Vollmer refined LK design which received an order on 17 June 1918. Here the ordering gets confused.

A revised Krupp/DMG Kleiner Sturmwagen was presented on 23 July 1918 which could be armed with either an MG 08/15 or a 5,7 cm cannon. However, by 17 July, the OHL had already issued its orders for the rival LK II. Still, on 08 August 1918, Chefkraft Max Bauer reported a decision (based on the 13 June conference) to order "270 LK II and 33 Krupp vehicles". Those orders were to be fulfilled by April 1919. But what exactly were those "33 Krupp vehicles"?

Based on the decision date (and Bauer's artillery predilections) an order for 20 Krupp/DMG Kraftprotze 'powered limbers' cannot be completely ruled out. Or perhaps the vehicle's exact role was left as 'to be determined'? However, all evidence suggests that the OHL had already decided that the simpler solution to the gun tug role was a LK II (simply tanks fitted with hitches or one of Vollmer's half-hearted turretless LK II Kraftprotze derivatives).

Alternatively, Krupp/DMG's revised Kleiner Sturmwagen may have been ordered in small numbers as an insurance plan for the LK II. A drawing of another Krupp light tank design appeared in 1920. [1] Did this represent the appearance of 23 July 1918 Krupp/DMG Kleiner Sturmwagen? Other than its rotating turret, the design shown resembles Hagelloch's 1920 patent application drawing. The tracks are obscured by armour covers but the track system proportions also look similar.

Reportedly, this turreted Krupp light tank concept was meant to carry eight troops tank desant style. But, obviously, it also had that (folding?) rear armour panel to help shield advancing infantry.

_________________

[1] Captioned "Leichter deutscher Tank mit 4,7-cm-Kanone der Friedr. Krupp-A.-G.". This 2-view drawing appeared in a 1920 supplement volume (Ergänzungsband) to the 1904 second edition of the Lexikon der gesamten Technik und ihrer Hilfswissenschaften (originally by Otto Lueger, 1843-1911).

Wow so I found the source material for this, it mentions all the designs specifications, plus it mentions that its an 1918(!) design.

It could carry 8 soldiers plus the crew of 4, speed of 14km/h, 4800mm long and 1930mm wide, with space for 200 rounds of 47mm ammo.

 

[dan_inbox]

in Militärwissenschaftliche Mitteilungen. v.54. It talks about the Daimler connection as previously mentioned by Apophenia.

Do you think that it is the same contraption as

Austro Daimler Kraftprotze 1917 mit Munitionsanhänger [MGM80-104]SECONDARY_SECTION29.90EURPRIMARY_SECTIONTracks & Troops On-line Shop

Tracks & Troops On-line Shop Austro Daimler Kraftprotze 1917 mit Munitionsanhänger [MGM80-104]SECONDARY_SECTION

www.tracks-n-troops.eu

 

[Apophenia]

...
[1] Captioned "Leichter deutscher Tank mit 4,7-cm-Kanone der Friedr. Krupp-A.-G.". This 2-view drawing appeared in a 1920 supplement volume (Ergänzungsband) to the 1904 second edition of the Lexikon der gesamten Technik und ihrer Hilfswissenschaften (originally by Otto Lueger, 1843-1911).

Wow so I found the source material for this, it mentions all the designs specifications, plus it mentions that its an 1918(!) design.

It could carry 8 soldiers plus the crew of 4, speed of 14km/h, 4800mm long and 1930mm wide, with space for 200 rounds of 47mm ammo.

Yes, apologies if I confused matters with that 1920 publication date.

They took a 'belt and braces' approach to supporting infantry - that big 'shield' at the back for troops advancing on foot and/or eight dismounts riding in an exposed 'tank-desant' style ('Mind those moving tracks Hans!').

 

[SirCoutin]

Vollmer tank, on Motorwagen 23. With pictures and drawings, sounds super interesting.

 

[SirCoutin]

About the LK.III

 

[SirCoutin]

And jackpot! Found the report which talks about the exact thing I started this thread about:

 

[SirCoutin]

More interesting info

 

[riggerrob]

in Militärwissenschaftliche Mitteilungen. v.54. It talks about the Daimler connection as previously mentioned by Apophenia.

Do you think that it is the same contraption as

Austro Daimler Kraftprotze 1917 mit Munitionsanhänger [MGM80-104]SECONDARY_SECTION29.90EURPRIMARY_SECTIONTracks & Troops On-line Shop

Tracks & Troops On-line Shop Austro Daimler Kraftprotze 1917 mit Munitionsanhänger [MGM80-104]SECONDARY_SECTION

www.tracks-n-troops.eu

That reminds us of some of the low-budget, 2-whelled tractors built for hobby farms.

 

[Arjen]

That reminds us of some of the low-budget, 2-whelled tractors built for hobby farms.

Two-wheel tractors are used worldwide
- by farmers with limited funds
- on small plots of land (for example mountainous terrain)

Two-wheel tractor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org