• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

VSS - VSTOL Support Ship - exotic air group

zen

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
1,091
A hanger tends not to have a opening forward through which the ships motion drives fresh air....well not on a modern one anyway.

But yes fire in a hanger is always a nightmare.

However a second flight deck, which is what your design has, has a lot of openings which would need to close to counter the risks of fire. Closing them off requires a lot of metal.
 

Purpletrouble

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
292
Reaction score
213
Some good reasons why double-decker carriers might not be a good idea..
Master, i didn’t understand what you mean. What’s diference betwen both decks to get fire ??? Both decks exist independent of under deck be a flyIng deck. In the same case, both decks be a lot of aircrafts with the same equipaments, conventional deck or not.
What is this trying to solve?Having both a catapult and a ski jump?

The older flying off decks of pre WW2 did not extend very far back because the take off run was pretty much the open bit. On yours it would make more sense to put the catapult on the lower deck. That would at least solve airflow problems from having the ramp in front of that tunnel. The catapult flying off bit could then be screened to the rear with a door.

Wouldn’t a split bow be far easier? Catapult to one side (starboard in front of island) and runway + ramp to other (port)?

Your lower flight deck would be impossible by the way. Structurally you just cannot have that much open the full length with that much on top of it. And you need at least a full deck if not two between the two for the carapult kit.

Where is the hangar? I assume underneath the lower flight decl in which case this is a very tall ship with significant rolling on the top deck. Landing on that will be a challenge even if well stabilised.

Again I think a split bow would achieve combined cat/stovl ops much more easily, although notable that even natioks with both types (India) didn’t try to adopt that.
 

Purpletrouble

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 16, 2019
Messages
292
Reaction score
213
A fire in a tunnel is even worse
But, the CVF´s lower deck is closed too, isn´t it?

All aircraft carrier has a lower deck closed with many aircrafts storaged
They also have fire curtains that break it into sections and which can close the lift wells.

The key thing is that they aren’t trying to fly the aircraft in these closed areas or even run the engines, thus minimising the risk of accident/fire.
 

SSgtC

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jul 13, 2020
Messages
680
Reaction score
1,070
Some good reasons why double-decker carriers might not be a good idea..
Master, i didn’t understand what you mean. What’s diference betwen both decks to get fire ??? Both decks exist independent of under deck be a flyIng deck. In the same case, both decks be a lot of aircrafts with the same equipaments, conventional deck or not.
I am no expert on fires but a fire in a contained space is a far worse case than one on an open deck, where planes can be pushed over the edge into the sea. Suffice be it to say that no Navy has adopted a closed flying deck
A fire in a tunnel is even worse
See the current fire on Bon Homme Richard (LHD-6) for proof of why this isn't a very good idea...
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,787
Reaction score
4,009
I was wondering something... had Convair 200 been picked instead of the Rockwell XFV-12 in May 1972, GD-Convair would have found themselves in a weird situation soon.

Since the GD F-16 was competiting for LWF the same year 1972 and it won - along the YF-17.

Basically GD-Convair would have found themselves with two single-seat single-jet fighters: the Convair 200/201 versus the GD F-16.

Ain't that a little weird ? Some kind of amicable treaty: Convair 200/201 for the USN, F-16 for USAF ?

...and things would have gotten even weirder had the Convair 201 screwed the F-17 / F-18 for the Navy... I mean, had two prototypes Convair 200s been build in place of Rockwell XFV-12; then, instead of a naval F-16, GD could have pitched, against the naval F-17, the Convair 201 CTOL variant !

Overall, starting from Zumwalt SCS fighter - the Convair 200 - the CTOL 201 could have played havoc with both F-16 and F-18 competitions. What a troublemaker it would have been !

Thought ?
 
Last edited:

zen

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
2,373
Reaction score
1,091
201 CTOL variant could have swept up a lot of export and licensed production. Not just F16 orders, but contesting Mirage F1, Jaguar, Harrier, etc....
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
5,787
Reaction score
4,009
A F-35 all but in name :p

frack, I've just found this.


For VFAX - General Dynamics submitted two designs; a stretched YF-16 called Model 18 from Fort Worth ; and the Model 218 from Convair San Diego based on the Model 200 VSTOL fighter.

ha ha, I knew it ! At some point the CTOL-200 (be it 201 or 218 doesn't matter) clashed with the F-16.

In August 1974, Congress redirected funds for the Navy’s VFAX program to a new Navy Air Combat Fighter (NACF) program that would essentially be a navalized variant of ACF.

So from this point on, Convair-GD option was a naval LWF, that is, a naval F-16, the one with Vought that lost to the future F-18.

Now, had the Convair 200 screwed the Rockwell design back in 1972, and being build much faster...

Maybe the 201 / 218 could have saved VFAX, being anchored to an aircraft being already build (the 200).

The Navy could have argued "no need to navalize the LWF into the NACF, thanks; I already have the Convair 201/218 for VFAX. Can get it much faster than a navalized F-17 by just removing the lift jets out of the 200 being build for Zumwalt ships..."

In a few word: the Convair 201 could have, all by itself, saved VFAX and prevented NACF that is, the F-18.

------------

In turn that change Northrop fate enormously... they are not screwed by MDD over the F-18L, and then re-screwed over the entire F-20 adventure.

But they could very much end screwed over the F-17 nonetheless; it is an "orphan" (like the F-20 OTL !) since it lost to the F-16 and the F-18 never exists to "save" it.
 
Last edited:
Top