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US Lifting Bodies Studies - START (ASSET/PRIME), FDL, X-24, etc.

quellish

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XP67_Moonbat said:
The forebody with upturned wingtips catches my eye. Any idea if it is anything specific? Or is it just a generic concept?
I am pretty sure I recognize it as a post AMaRV RV, though the name of the program I can't recall.
Semi-related:
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12061&page=89

The unknown lockheed missile, I think, maybe be a hypersonic strike missile they were shopping around in the late 80s. Not to be confused with the boost-glide weapon that was an anti-airfield weapon (see http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3721.0 )
 

Desert Dawn

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flateric said:
http://www.mri.psu.edu/Events/MaterialsDay/2004/kramer.pdf
Nice ones Flateric. The Lockheed vehicle illustration strongly mirrors the Flying Wind tunnel concept though they are obviously two different projects from different companies (but perhaps with the same ancestor).

Nice one with the model of the General Dynamics HGV.
 

Desert Dawn

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Dynoman said:
Great find flateric!
As soon as I saw it I thought of the Sortie type vehicle depicted in the two pictures above (137_02.png and 137_03.png). It shows a manned system with a 'hidden-line' drawing illustrating a break in the verticle stabilizer.

I'm wondering if that model was tested without the verticle stabilizer and is reflected in the unknownmissile picture. The 'inlets' reminded me of the manned FDL-5 cockpit windows.
** No relation.

The missile is shown above the launch aircraft, so I assume the vehicle will climb after launch.
I would think that the raised 'inlet' area would be better positioned on the bottom, or symetrically positioned on the top and bottom for uniterrupted flow, especially at hypersonic speeds.
[/quote]
 

blackstar

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Anybody got a copy of this (the pdf only shows the first page):

http://pdf.aiaa.org/preview/CDReadyMISPHST08_1877/PV2008_2611.pdf

FDL-5A
Precursor to High Performance Lifting Entry Spacecraft
An Historical Review

Carl F. Ehrlich, Jr.


I'm doing a follow-up to my ALSV article and the FDL-5A shape was one of the vehicles considered around this timeframe.
 

RanulfC

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flateric said:
http://www.mri.psu.edu/Events/MaterialsDay/2004/kramer.pdf
Old topic a bit but something that caught my eye here was the bottom pic of an "unknownlockheedmissile" which pretty much fits the FDL-5/7 mock-up images and it got me thinking...
I KNOW all the info says the flat surfaces on the mock-up are windows, but something about them always bothered me. Mostly I suspect the "angle" they are at, especially given the overall "nose-high" landing mode always shown for the design. Combined with the ninefingers models model and now this pic it occurs to me: What if they weren't 'windows' but intakes?
Sure having your intakes on the upper surface actually costs you some perfomance, (and makes rapid changes of AOA a stone-..er.. bear ;) ) but this isn't actually (from what I've been reading on the subject in various places) as critical for a hypersonic cruise vehicle. Manned or unmanned.

Am I crazy? (Ok, any more than NORMAL maybe... ;) )

Randy
 

quellish

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RanulfC said:
Sure having your intakes on the upper surface actually costs you some perfomance, (and makes rapid changes of AOA a stone-..er.. bear ;) ) but this isn't actually (from what I've been reading on the subject in various places) as critical for a hypersonic cruise vehicle. Manned or unmanned.

Am I crazy? (Ok, any more than NORMAL maybe... ;) )

Randy
No, this is not crazy. I have seen some serious work done on "dorsal" inlets for hypersonic cruise aircraft, but not accelerators.
 

Desert Dawn

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Hi Randy,

The FDL-5 and other low lift-to-drag ratio hypersonic reentry vehicles like FDL-6, FDL-7, FDL-8, etc, never fly at a nose high attitude. The Space Shuttle have an entry angle of about 40 degrees. The FDL family of hypersonic vehicles were designed to fly with very minimal nose high attitude (way below 40 degrees). The way the Wright Patterson FDL-5 mock up is built (and my resin scale models of it) shows it without its window shrouds. You cannot fly hypersonic speed in the atmosphere with the nose angle at nearly level flight with flat or slightly angles windows at the speeds at which the FDL-5 and X-20 fly. That's why the X-20 had a jettisonable window shroud. The windows would have been visible only in the last moments of the flight (shortly before touch-down), they are used only for visual final approach. In orbit, video cameras and optical periscopes would have been used (by the way, i spotted two small window fairings on a higher resolution picture of the manned FDL-5 mock-up that would correspond to that).
The 64 feet long FDL-5 manned would have flown its mission on instruments, the window shrouds being jettisonned only shortly before landing (and only after completing its reentry). There would not have been anything retractable to cover the windows and the area in front of the windows (way too complicated, heavy and risky). Just a note, i took the artistic license to photograph my resin kit model of the FDL-5 "in space" and without window shrouds simply because the window shrouds have never been shown and because we better know the mock-up in its without-window-shrouds configuration (and admitedly because it looks more interesting that way). For the sake or realism anyone who wants to represent the FDL-5 manned as it would really look like in orbit can always cover the area in front of the windows with plasticard and it will give a good idea of what it would look like with window shrouds in place.

About the dorsal inlets for hypersonic airbreathers, there are not tons of them out there, and the Flying Wind Tunnel was not built. Usually the best place to put your inlets is under the fuselage, with at least 3 ramps to compress the air to the engine modules. Their are several axi-symmetric inlet designs too including some that were flown (Russia, Australia) which use a cone in the inlet for compression. X-43, X-51, X-30, etc, all use ventral inlets with compression ramps. It's interesting to note that even for the Mach 3 plus D-21 drone, the ramjet used to blow-out during turns but would re-ignite during straight flight due to the heat of the engine walls alone (!). A dorsal inlet for a maneuvering hypersonic vehicle might experience more blow-outs than a model with a ventral inlet.

Stephane.
Stratosphere Models



RanulfC said:
flateric said:
http://www.mri.psu.edu/Events/MaterialsDay/2004/kramer.pdf
Old topic a bit but something that caught my eye here was the bottom pic of an "unknownlockheedmissile" which pretty much fits the FDL-5/7 mock-up images and it got me thinking...
I KNOW all the info says the flat surfaces on the mock-up are windows, but something about them always bothered me. Mostly I suspect the "angle" they are at, especially given the overall "nose-high" landing mode always shown for the design. Combined with the ninefingers models model and now this pic it occurs to me: What if they weren't 'windows' but intakes?
Sure having your intakes on the upper surface actually costs you some perfomance, (and makes rapid changes of AOA a stone-..er.. bear ;) ) but this isn't actually (from what I've been reading on the subject in various places) as critical for a hypersonic cruise vehicle. Manned or unmanned.

Am I crazy? (Ok, any more than NORMAL maybe... ;) )

Randy
 

fightingirish

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HL-10, one picture shows HL-10 Logistics Vehicle and a launch mock-up.
Link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4589926701/
 

Michel Van

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this look like Martin Lifting body (and MOL Mockup ?)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4590546198/sizes/o/in/photostream/
 

Byeman

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Michel Van said:
this look like Martin Lifting body (and MOL Mockup ?)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4590546198/sizes/o/in/photostream/
That is the booster for the lifting body
 

archipeppe

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Byeman said:
Michel Van said:
this look like Martin Lifting body (and MOL Mockup ?)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/4590546198/sizes/o/in/photostream/
That is the booster for the lifting body
It appears also in the Jenkins' "X-Planes Scrapbook".
 

flateric

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oh...what a present. thanks!
 

Retrofit

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The Artist said:
This looks like the place and time to post this. I've had this photo in my collection since the 80s or early 90s.
Indeed, thanks a lot Artist!
Very interesting 2- (or 3-) place HL-10 type lifting body mock-up.
And only with "US Air Force" markings?
Any other information concerning the background and the actual status of this vehicle?

Thanks in advance,

Philippe
 

Stargazer2006

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The Artist said:
This looks like the place and time to post this. I've had this photo in my collection since the 80s or early 90s.
When you think you've seen it all, there's always something new and amazing to come your way...

I visited the Cradle of Aviation Museum back in 1993 and also some of its workshops (they were rebuilding a Savoia-Marchetti S.56 flying boat) but I never saw that thing. Do they still have it or was it swapped? Scrapped?

Anyway, thanks for sharing!
 

The Artist

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I posted that picture hoping that someone else would know something about it. I'm going to have to dig for what little information I have on the thing. I want to say that Robert McCall referred me to the Cradle of Aviation Museum about that thing. (That was a long time ago) I had seen one of his paintings depicting a vehicle of this design and the caption referred to the vehicle as the Dynasoar. I called him to ask about that designation as I had not seen that shape in any of the Dynasoar images I had seen by then. Anyway. I called the museum and asked about the mock-up Bob had mentioned and they sent the photograph.

Now. The information I'll have to dig for is what little I learned about the thing some time later. While the thing may have been used as a training aid or design tool, it had been used in an exhibit - World's Fair - I believe. I have seen a photo of this, or something like it, hanging with a small space station module and an astronaut in EVA suit. I saw that picture in - I believe - an article about that mock-up being moved from the Cradle of Aviation Museum to its new home in another location. If I find the article I'll post it.
 

Barrington Bond

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The World Fair you mention is in Robert Godwin's Dyna-Soar: Hypersonic Strategic Weapons System I believe.

Regards,
Barry
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Try this on for size! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNWzlw1HNjQ&NR=1

"Rendezvous In Space", a film made for the '64 World's Fair. Not bad as far old cartoons go. Goes dark from 4:38 to 6:57. But at least you still get to see the landing sequence.

It's funny how I noticed the voice talent and sound effects on this one.

I recognize some of the voices from "Looney Tunes" (ironically, the carrot had to be the voice of Bugs Bunny) and the computer sound effects remind me of that whole teleportation bit from the original Chocolate Factory movie.
 

The Artist

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Thank you. Yes. That's the bit I saw about it being moved.

On the illustration page facing page 321 there is a contact sheet of 25 exposures of the thing in the process of being installed in the new location. On the preceding page are three small pictures of the mock-up from the right side. The caption identifies it as "The Martin World's Fair X-23A version in Oklahoma." However. The background in these three shots does not match the surroundings visible in the contact sheet images. I believe these shots were taken in the same location as the photo I posted.

In the color section between pages 128 and 129 is a picture of the display in the 1964 New York World's Fair. The caption is as follows.

The Martin Dyna-Soar on display at the New York World's Fair in 1964. The Shape bears some resemblance to thew Martin X-23A/SV-5D reentry model and appears to be an interim design falling between the X-20 and later lifting bodies such as the X-24, the M2-F2, and the HL-10. This life-size model shown docking with a space station was animated. It ended up at the Oklahoma Omniplex and may be the nearest thing left in existence to a Dyna-Soar.
I guess my memory was wrong about the EVA astronaut as none is visible in the picture. I'll try to scan and post the color image - if posting from this book is permitted - or if anyone else is in a position to do so then go ahead and post it. Meanwhile, I'll keep digging because I think I've got something else on this from a magazine.

Edit - note: this is in response to Barrington Bond's message. The animation was posted while I was composing the message.
 

Skybolt

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Actually it wasn't Dyna Soar, it was a Martin's exhibit. The lifting body was a reduced version of the SLOMAR proposal (MB-2 shape)
 

The Artist

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Skybolt said:
Actually it wasn't Dyna Soar, it was a Martin's exhibit. The lifting body was a reduced version of the SLOMAR proposal (MB-2 shape)
Yes, and I see another problem with that caption from the book. The mock-up should have been said to resemble the HL-10, not the X-23A/SV-5D. (Did he mean to say X-24A?)
 

Retrofit

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The Artist said:
Skybolt said:
Actually it wasn't Dyna Soar, it was a Martin's exhibit. The lifting body was a reduced version of the SLOMAR proposal (MB-2 shape)
Yes, and I see another problem with that caption from the book. The mock-up should have been said to resemble the HL-10, not the X-23A/SV-5D. (Did he mean to say X-24A?)
Perhaps some relation with Martin "3/D" proposal detailed in NASA report CR-66358 "Study of the influence of size of a manned lifting body entry vehicle on research potential and cost. Final report; Part VII: Selected Entry Vehicle Design":
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700076975_1970076975.pdf

But the Martin's contrat with NASA ref. NAS 1-6209 is dated April 1966, two year after the World Fair, and Martin's final report is dated May 1967.
In the meantime, NASA published a report NASA TM X-1321 on "Effects of various canopies on the aerodynamic characteristics of a manned lifting entry vehicle at Mach O.O6 to 6.8", dated Decembre 1966:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700078696_1970078696.pdf
 

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Justo Miranda

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Some classic stuff here
Post-5
From
-Le Fanatique de l'Aviation
-Jet & Prop 5/98
-The Eagles Talon INC.
-Airpower-Sept 2003
-Air International-Oct.1996
-Air Enthusiast-Eight
-The Dream Machines-by Ron Miller
-Unknown source
 

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Justo Miranda

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Some classic stuff here
Post-6
From
-Le Fanatique de l'Aviation
-Jet & Prop 5/98
-The Eagles Talon INC.
-Airpower-Sept 2003
-Air International-Oct.1996
-Air Enthusiast-Eight
-The Dream Machines-by Ron Miller
-Unknown source
 

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Michel Van

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THX for Picture Justo


never know this had a rocket engine

normally it was pull by Cadillac or a aircraft
 

Justo Miranda

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Some classic stuff here
Post-10
From
-Airpower-Sept.2003
-The Dream Machines by Ron Miller
-Flight International-January 2000
-The X-Planes by Jay Miller
-Air International-Oct/Nov 1996
-Aeroplane Montly-August 1978
 

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Justo Miranda

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Some classic stuff here
Post-11
From
-Airpower-Sept.2003
-The Dream Machines by Ron Miller
-Flight International-January 2000
-The X-Planes by Jay Miller
-Air International-Oct/Nov 1996
-Aeroplane Montly-August 1978
 

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