US Army in 1975 (No Vietnam)

[uk 75]

If the US had not become bogged down in the Vietnam war and continued instead to concentrate on its primary Cold War role of defending Germany would we have seen the following developed further.

Main Battle tank

MBT 70 was principally a victim of its own complexity and the poor weapons system (Shillelagh). However, with time and money on their hands and the Russians having invaded Czechosolvakia in 1968 maybe it could have been brought into service.

MICV

Again, although MICV 70 was expensive, it could, like the similarly costly German Marder, have been made to work.

AA system

A lot of effort had already been spent on the Mauler system. Another possible recovered system.

SPG

A successor for M109 (XM 179?) was planned but had to be axed because of the lingering costs of Vietnam.

Although expensive and perhaps difficult to operate, a force in US Seventh Army made up of this equipment might have given the Soviets sleepless nights.

UK 75

 

[Ranger6]

Interesting post UK75, you raise a good point about what could have been if the US Army wasn't bogged down (physically and financially) in Vietnam. That said, let's keep in mind that two of the systems you mention, the upgraded MBT and the MICV, did in fact come into service -- as the M-1 Abrams and the M-2 Bradley. Granted, the actual production models did not "look" like their progenitors and it would certainly have been nice to have them in service earlier (around the time of the great "tank crisis" in 1973/74 for example), but I don't think their would have been any major difference in what we got and what we would have gotten.

As to the Mauler, my understanding is that the problem was with the missile, not with the mount (a modified M-113).. After all, the US has had a tortured history of trying to develop self-propleeld air defense systems that aren't deadly to enemy aircraft (i.e., DIVADS).

Ta for now!

 

[Pioneer]

And more than likely the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne combat helicopter

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Ranger6]

I don't know about the Cheyenne, Pioneer -- seems to me it would have been the same kind of boondoggle (overly complicated and unable to fulfill its mission profile) as the later Comanche helicopter (cancelled by Donald Rumsfeld). Clearly, the Army needed and would have still needed a purpose built attack helicopter, if there had been no Viet Nam war. Presumably that means we would have gotten the Apache (or something like it) sooner and with a greater time to mature its weapons and avionics.

Ranger6

 

[Skybolt]

Agreed. The AAFSS competition was initiated when during large airborne operations in Vietnam the Army discovered that the Chinooks carrying troops outraced the armed Huey that escorted them. Hence the high speed request for the AAFSS, and things like the capability to fire off-course (the swiveling gunner station on the Cheyenne) with the gun. One possible alternate w/o Vietnam (in the sense, w/o a large scale war in Vietnam) could have been an heavily armored recon heli, useful both in COIN and in an European theater of war.

 

[Cobrapilot]

Cheyenne was way ahead of its time, but the weapons system videos I have seen all showed a very workable and accurate system. The pusher prop was a success, but the one cloud hanging over the program was the 1/2P hop. It is a bit disconcerting to have a main rotor system that wants to come visit the pilots inside about neck high... other than that I would have loved flying it. Given another 6 months time, they would have figured out how to eliminate (or avoid) the 1/2P hop as well.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Given another 6 months time, they would have figured out how to eliminate (or avoid) the 1/2P hop as well.

Agreed, though politics (and more than a bit of short sightedness) arguably had more to do with the cancellation.

 

[Pioneer]

On the other side of the coin, I guess there's many a systems and doctrine that were a positive from the US militaries perceptive of Viet Nam:

-PGM's;
-tactical reconnaissance aircraft and sensor development;
-the doctrine of over reliance on beyond visual AAM's and elimination of gun/cannon on fighter's was wrong;
-the development of a seriouserious appreciation of SEAD, technology, sensors and weapons to suppress and destroy air defence systems;
-modern carrier operations and doctrine;
-the appreciation and establishment of dissimulated air combat training and doctrine;
-Special Forces;
-and I guess the biggest learning outcome - never underestimate your opponent or their resolve!!! [well I guess the US military did forget this in the long run - Mogadishu, Afghanistan, Iraq, ......]

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Archibald]

"Nuclear energy depot" carries on after 1966 and "save the day" in October 1973 - after pioneering the use of ammonia and methanol in IC engines.

One can dream, no ?

 

[riggerrob]

Cheyenne was way ahead of its time, but the weapons system videos I have seen all showed a very workable and accurate system. The pusher prop was a success, but the one cloud hanging over the program was the 1/2P hop. It is a bit disconcerting to have a main rotor system that wants to come visit the pilots inside about neck high... other than that I would have loved flying it. Given another 6 months time, they would have figured out how to eliminate (or avoid) the 1/2P hop as well.

UH-60 solved the problem of "canopy shaving" by installing a taller main rotor mast.

 

[Archibald]

They had electronics and mechanical systems on hand to cure that issue by 1972... when the program was canned (facepalm).

I always loved the Cheyenne, so futuristic. It is the B-70 or SR-71 of helicopters.

 

[Pioneer]

Cheyenne was way ahead of its time, but the weapons system videos I have seen all showed a very workable and accurate system. The pusher prop was a success, but the one cloud hanging over the program was the 1/2P hop. It is a bit disconcerting to have a main rotor system that wants to come visit the pilots inside about neck high... other than that I would have loved flying it. Given another 6 months time, they would have figured out how to eliminate (or avoid) the 1/2P hop as well.

UH-60 solved the problem of "canopy shaving" by installing a taller main rotor mast.

Well riggerrob, I'm guessing without the Viet Nam War, the combat lesson learnt with the Bell UH-1 would most likely not even spawned the Operational Requirement, let alone the RfP for the Utility Tactical Transport Aircraft System (UTTAS) competition - hence no there would most likely be no UH-60!
I'm thinking the US Army might have ended up content with the likes of Bell Model 212 / UH-1N.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Michel Van]

USA could had the wisdom not to step in that Asia bear trap ? i think not !

The Vietnam war cost ONE trillion US Dollars in today value
They're allot of programs could benefit from that money like more Apollo moon landing and Skylabs.
But Real Politic make this not possible

YF-12 a Mach 3 interceptor USAF wanted 93 of those
but very likely McNamara find another reason to cancel the program do "high cost and little benefit"

MBT 70 and AH-56 Cheyenne would be canceled anyhow
Both were hyper complex systems with to many unproven technology and too much issues

MOL a manned spy sat, suffer from delays and was overrun by technological progress, making it obsolet.

Apollo program was victorious, but dead on arrival with no soviet cosmonaut landing on Moon
They used the build hardware for maybe Apollo 18/19 or two Skylabs

in development of new Aircraft under VFX and F-X program it would be quite different
It's missing combat experience gain in Vietnam War leading to quite different F-15 and F-14
worst case scenario McNamara last act as Secretary of Defense is order to fusion VFX and F-X program
And build one Fighter for USAF and NAVY use, another F-111...

 

[Elan Vital]

If not for Vietnam requiring tanks on the ground and taking so much funding, we would have seen more M48A3 batches and those would have had M68 guns from 1965-on. M48A5 wouldn't exist as a designation but would happen almost a decade earlier.

 

[pathology_doc]

Would we have seen a switch to the M16/5.56mm cartridge, or would the M14 and developments of it have soldiered on for longer than they did?

 

[Cjc]

Given another 6 months time, they would have figured out how to eliminate (or avoid) the 1/2P hop as well.

Agreed, though politics (and more than a bit of short sightedness) arguably had more to do with the cancellation.

They had already fix that before the axe fell, that was always more of a smoke screen to cancel the program for political reasons anyway.