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1967 US MICV mock up in Janes Weapons Systems

uk 75

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I wonder if anyone with a first or second edition copy of Janes Weapons Systems (1969 or 70) could help
me track down an image showing a Marder like mock up of a US MICV design for the 1967 MICV competition.
I photocopied it some years back from a Library copy (now no longer available) and wanted to post it here.

JWS showed a number of otherwise unpublished MICV designs as did the Austrian reference book by
Friedrich Wiener ARMEEN DER NATO STAATEN in the 70s. Again, I had a photocopy but cannot find it.
 

Pioneer

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Sounds interesting!
Good luck with your endeavour!

Regards
Pioneer
 

John21

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I'll see what I can do. I've got the first edition of Janes Weapon Systems and I'll see if I can get a pic of it for you.

Edit: Just checked my 1969-1970 edition and I could not find an image of the MICV you mentioned. Do you by chance have a copy of Hunnicutts Bradley? It may be in there. I've got a copy and could check for you.
 

BB1984

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This one? It's the MICV-65 program's XM701 vehicle. It was based on the chassis for the M107/M110 self propelled guns.



There's a little about the program and another picture on wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICV-65
 

uk 75

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Thanks all.
I have Hunnicutt and cannot find the mock up there. I was pretty sure that it came from Jane's and was referee to as 1967 micv.
It was not the Xm 701.
 

Kadija_Man

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How about the XM734?



Or it's successors:





Problem is, apart from the XM701, you really only have, in physical form, the XM734. The XM734 suffered from amphibious stability problems (most weight forward) and mobility problems. The XM701 suffered from being too much based on the M113. Revolutionary versus evolutionary development.
 

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Possibly already common knowledge, but the MICV-65 apparently exceeded the dimensions (width I think it was) of the USAF's premier transporter - The C-141A, which negated its strategic mobility/lift......
 

uk 75

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Sorry, no, the thing I remember was a wooden mockup with a
Cannon mount like the German Madder and a crude Bradley style body
 

uk 75

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Paul

The wooden, emphasise wooden, mockup was very crude and had a hull
which was a cross between the XM723 and a German HS30, with the
gun mounting of an early Marder and was said to date from 1967.

I thought I had put my photocopy in Hunnicut but cannot find it. As
I say it came from either Janes Weapons Systems (pre 1974) or
Wiener Streitkraefte der NATO Staaten, though this was only a
very small version.

I will keep looking, it must be somewhere..
 

skylancer-3441

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Something like this?

btw, using GoogleBooks version of Jane's Weapons Systems 1972, which is unfortuntelly available only in "snippet view" mode (like all the other Jane's books and magazines) so most of the pictures (all of them in this particular case) are removed, i was able to get text of their article on XM-723
==280==
5055.102
XM 723 MECHANISED INFANTRY COMBAT VEHICLE (MICV)
Description:
Based on the experience of Vietnam, the US Army issued in 1967 a specification for an armoured personnel carrier to succeed M113. The specification called for a vehicle capable of being used for a mounted attack by mechanised infantry, and with a very refined environmental control capsule to protect the crew from chemical, biological and radiological hazards as well as providing good protection against conventional gunfire. Learning from the experience with MBT 70, a very rigorous costing exercise was done on this specification before it was committed to development. As a result, the 1967 specification was withdrawn and a new 'austere' MICV defined.
The US Army's specifications call for a vehicle weighing from 35,000 to 38,000 pounds and having a forward speed of 40 to 45 mph and a reverse speed of 5 to 10 mph. Its cruising range will be 300 to 350 miles. With the addition of a special kit, the vehicle
• The experimental version of MICV put forward in 1965 by the Pacific Car and Foundry Co to test their proposals and to assist with defining the US Army specification (US Army photograph)
==281==
will have a water speed of 6 mph at the minimum. The vehicle will have a ground clearance of 18 to 22 inches and will be able to clear dikes and other vertical obstacles up to 36 inches in height.
Primary armament will be a single-barrel automatic gun weighing approximately 68 kg and having a variable rate of fire up to 550 rounds/min with selectable (dual feed) ammunition. It has been named the Bushmaster. The vehicle will have a twelve man crew and will be air transportable.
Official Requests for Proposals for the system have been expected to be issued for some time and are currently said to be due for issue during 1972. This will be followed by the issue of a cost-plus-incentive fee contract for engineering development, with the contractor being required to fabricate and deliver three prototype vehicles for design testing.
Requests for proposals for the Bushmaster gun were issued in December 1971 and bids were received from four firms. Three of these firms — AAI Corporation, General Electric Company and Philco Ford Corporation — have been awarded contracts for work on the validation phase.
• The XM 765 experimental vehicle based on the M113 APC, but carrying a 20 mm Hispano Suiza cannon, put forward by tht FMC Corporation as a contender for the 'austere' MICV requirement
• Official US Army picture of proposed MICV design
 

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skylancer-3441

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btw, Hunnicutt's book has (on page 274) a drawing and a diagram of some early XM-701 - with different frontal part which lacks built-in flotation device -
well - there is another drawing of the same vehicle
 

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Pioneer

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skylancer-3441 said:
or may be something like this?
What a nice looking design - especially the Glacis plate design and angle, when compared to the odd flat-nosed arrangement of the MICV-65/XM701 vehicle's design!!

Hopefully we'll find more on this design!! :eek: :p

Regards
Pioneer
 

skylancer-3441

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another depiction of MICV, which somewhat reminds me of last pic in this post on previous page,
and which was accompanied by this text:
Mechanized Infantry Combat Vehicle (MICV) (Figure 4)
We are preparing to enter engineering development of a successor to the M113 Armored Personnel Carrier. It is called the MICV - for Mechanized Infantry Combat Vehicle.
It is a new type vehicle to the US Army, and results from the Infantry's decision in 1963 to change Its doctrine to allow comnanders the option to fight from within their personnel carriers.
Studies showed that upgrading or product improving the M113 could not provide a key essential, sufficient mobility, to allow the carrier to accompany the future Main Battle Tank across country. The technique to achieve this will probably be a tube over bar suspension system that permits greater torsion and greater wheel travel than conventional systems. It is a proven component.
We have received authority (and we believe the necessary funds in the FY73 appropriation) to begin building the first prototype vehicles early next calendar year. A special board evaluated bids from the three potential contractors: FMC, Chrysler, and Pacific Car and Foundry. The contract was awarded to FMC. A single contractor was selected rather than several competitive contractors since the components to be used on MICV, with the exception of the gun, are already proven components.
The gun is to be the BUSHMASTER - a new stabilized automatic weapon now undergoing a competitive development effort by several contractors. It will be in the caliber range of 20-30mm and considerably more effective and store armor penetrating than current guns.
The shock and vibration problems of the MICV are similar to the Main Battle Tank and there will be unique problems associated with the 20-30mm automatic weapons. Combat vehicles In general have been described by some as having a built-in self-destruct capability. This is a very apt description. Wherever a threaded fastener is used on these vehicles - be they on wheeled or to a certain extent tracked vehicles - there is an almost certainty that over a period of time they will work loose. This problem can be attacked in two ways. One is to design the springs and tires so that the vibration body is damped and the energy absorbed at these points. The other is to use self-locking threaded fasteners, or those with fine threads, which are expensive solutions and which complicates the maintenance function. The XM746, Heavy Equipment Transporter is a good example. Much design effort and testing has been devoted to improving the springs, tires and shock absorbers to dampen the vibration and absorb road shock energy. Fasteners have been working loose in the axle cover plates, axle carriers, wheel lugs, door striker - you name it - and there has been a problem. On our M60 series tanks there has been trouble with both welded and bolted brackets and locks for the driver hatch. A great deal of assistance is still needed in these areas for the design of future vehicles and the improvement of current ones.
btw, Infantry 1971-Jan-Feb has Ogorkiewicz's article on ICVs - which is illustrated with another drawing of MICV

/damn. accidentally uploaded same image twice and did not noticed that untill ~15 hours later/
 

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uk 75

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Skylancer
Thank you for the drawings and text.
One of them is like the one in Jane's. I wish someone with a copy would post here
 

skylancer-3441

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I've tried to ask some Ebay sellers about photo of those pages from their JWS editions,

and so far it turned out that 1973-74 edition has 3 pictures of MICV which I've already seen
and that if 1969-70 edition actually has an article on MICV, illustrated with pictures, - it's NOT on page 280 or on some pages around it.

(it seems to me that in order to bother seller as little as possible, it's better to ask about photo of particular page, instead of asking them to spend some time searching something they are not interested in, in books which is some 500-700 pages long. Unfortunatelly it's rather hard to find on the internet that page number in 1969-70 edition, given that it's not available on GoogleBooks even in snippet view mode,
and given that i have no idea whether this edition has an proper index of some sort, like later editions of JWS, or - even if it has - where this index is located inside the book /in order to ask seller to find page on MICV in that index, and then make a photo/)


>>and so far it turned out that 1973-74 edition has 3 pictures of MICV which I've already seen
I've posted earlier 1 of those - from Shock and vibration bulletin Vol. 43 p.1 (1973-06) in my previous message,
and another one is a photo of early XM-723 wooden mockup, presumably full-scale - which was a mockup of not-yet-simplified version of XM-723 (with what looks like large sight on top of the turret, which was replaced later with some smaller and simpler sight, apparently in order to reduce cost) - which was also published in Army 1973-10 - attached to this post, and also available
there https://books.google.ru/books?id=AUREAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA130
there https://books.google.ru/books?id=rQAsvTQQMu0C&pg=PA130
and there https://books.google.ru/books?id=VLVyFLeuO1EC&pg=PT456
and last one was widely available b/w photo of XM-701 - for example https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.d0001604859;view=1up;seq=274

BTW, on Ebay I've stumbled across another photo of XM-701
 

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uk 75

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Thank you all for helping try and pin down these images.
What is clear from them is that the accounts in all the published sources, notably Hunnicut, are woefully incomplete and there were some very interesting designs being looked at by the US Army.
 

Kadija_Man

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You might want to consider that what you are assuming was a working vehicle was actually a wooden mockup with the actual vehicle which was developed looking rather different to it...
 

skylancer-3441

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uk 75 said:
What is clear from them is that the accounts in all the published sources, notably Hunnicut, are woefully incomplete and there were some very interesting designs being looked at by the US Army.
It seems to me that there are books out there, which probably were not seen by any military vehicles enthusiast, or by anyone else, for years - like this one for example http://library.mit.edu/item/000195603 (and the only reason i've heard about it - is because now-almost-20-years-old "Bradley and How it got that way" mentioned it)


...and another one on that topic - Bruce R. Pirme, From Half-Track to Bradley: Evolution Of the Infantry Fighting Vehicle, CMH, 1987.
 

Kadija_Man

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skylancer-3441 said:
uk 75 said:
What is clear from them is that the accounts in all the published sources, notably Hunnicut, are woefully incomplete and there were some very interesting designs being looked at by the US Army.
It seems to me that there are books out there, which probably were not seen by any military vehicles enthusiast, or by anyone else, for years - like this one for example http://library.mit.edu/item/000195603 (and the only reason i've heard about it - is because now-almost-20-years-old "Bradley and How it got that way" mentioned it)
Not surprising that it really hasn't been seen - it's a university thesis. Few if any of them are worth reading and fewer are worth publishing...
 

uk 75

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I think this is a most fascinating what-if period.
If the US had not been involved in Vietnam and had had more money and resources to devote to its forces in West Germany. Although only paper and wood, some of the deigns shown in these publications are really exciting. The Spz Neu Marder might have had US competition a lot earlier!
 

skylancer-3441

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One could find more than he has bargained for. Eventually some people even started to question whether Marder-alike/BMP-alike vehicle was actually suited for modern battlefield at all. For the first time - as early as 1968, with some proposals (entirely on paper) from then-called-ATAC (what is now TACOM) on much more protected vehicles like this one https://fromtheswedisharchives.wordpress.com/2018/11/07/us-afv-concepts-no-5/ and this one https://fromtheswedisharchives.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/us-afv-concepts-no-9-armored-combat-carrier/ (btw, it reminds me of soviet proposals from late 80s), and this one https://fromtheswedisharchives.wordpress.com/2018/11/17/us-afv-concepts-no-8-armored-infantry-carrier/
and there was also this one https://fromtheswedisharchives.wordpress.com/2018/11/22/us-afv-concepts-no-10-infantry-carrier-low-profile/ moderately protected but with very very low hull

>>For the first time - as early as 1968
at least I have not found anything about earlier US proposals on such vehicles, on the internet, so far. Btw, that Heavy IFV idea back than was unnoticed, and died, and reappeared again only later, after war of 1973, although this time it became more prominent and in 1977-1978 some people had to outright lie to US Senate in order to save IFV (Bradley) instead of starting development all over again (this time with HIFV).
 

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Kadija_Man

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I note that none of the designs just posted allow the passengers to enbus/debus to the rear of the vehicle. This would make them exceedingly dangerous to the passengers if anybody was shooting at them.
 

uk 75

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Thanks for the fascinating new material.
I suspect the influence on the US designs not having a drop down rear door was the German early infantry combat vehicle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%BCtzenpanzer_Lang_HS.30

which discouraged its infantry from dismounting by having them exit over the side. By 1971 it was being replaced by the Marder (Spz Neu) which did have a rear ramp.

Because of Vietnam USAREUR had to wait until the 80s to get such a vehicle. The West Germans of course also used M113s.

The British (who manufactured some of the HS30s) were completely unconvinced and used wheeled Saracens and then tracked FV432s in BAOR until Warriors arrive in the 80s.
 

uk 75

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Many thanks I think this is the mockup I had in mind
 

skylancer-3441

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>>and so far it turned out that 1973-74 edition has 3 pictures of MICV which I've already seen
I've posted earlier 1 of those - from Shock and vibration bulletin Vol. 43 p.1 (1973-06) in my previous message,
and another one is a photo of early XM-723 wooden mockup, presumably full-scale - which was a mockup of not-yet-simplified version of XM-723 (with what looks like large sight on top of the turret, which was replaced later with some smaller and simpler sight, apparently in order to reduce cost) - which was also published in Army 1973-10
I have also found this 1973-74 edition of JWS in the same library as 1970-71 edition, and made photos of those pages
 

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