UK-Japan-Italy Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP) News & Technical Analysis

momosir said:
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/kousouken/rc_support.html
スバルの次世代戦闘機に同行するドローンの動画が公開されました。
これは自律編隊飛行や自動ルート生成をテストするためのスケールモデルで、実際のドローンのサイズは10m前後と言われています。
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このデモンストレーターはSUBARU製なのでしょうか?
テストベッドとはいえ、三菱重工か川崎重工業が開発しているんじゃないかと思っていました。
1752063532187.png
 
takacosta said:
このデモンストレーターはSUBARU製なのでしょうか?
テストベッドとはいえ、三菱重工か川崎重工業が開発しているんじゃないかと思っていました。
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The Contractor is Subaru.
https://jm2040.blogspot.com/2020/07/rosa.html
Of course, the aircraft could be manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries or Kawasaki Heavy Industries as a subcontractor. Subaru manufactured the flight system, which is the most important part of the project.
However, Subaru has independently developed a drone called TACOM and has the ability to manufacture aircraft, so it is possible that Subaru also manufactured this aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuji_TACOM
 
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momosir said:
The Contractor is Subaru.
https://jm2040.blogspot.com/2020/07/rosa.html
Of course, the aircraft could be manufactured by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries or Kawasaki Heavy Industries as a subcontractor. Subaru manufactured the flight system, which is the most important part of the project.
However, Subaru has independently developed a drone called TACOM and has the ability to manufacture aircraft, so it is possible that Subaru also manufactured this aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuji_TACOM
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I've seen the Fuji-Tacom. It was surprisingly made in 1998, so it actually has quite a bit of history.
 
This scale experimental model plane is for the study of the control method for the AI plane.(automatic way point construction, reduction of ordering workload, how to indicate CCA status and situation for fighter pilot)
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/research/ats2023/pdf_exhi_pos/P-26.pdf スクリーンショット 2025-07-10 021429.jpg

And there are three contract will be planed(application deadline is Today) for the CCA development evaluation related to NGF.
#1 is for MHI.(ＮＡＷ２０７２０７)
#2 is for KHI.(２４ＫＴ００９５２８)
#3 is for Subaru.(ＵＨＤ－４３１０９)
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/data/info/ny_honbu/ippan.html
スクリーンショット 2025-07-10 020742.jpg
 
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Thanks robunos, I did not know that there was also a bi-plane transport from Vickers also called the Vulcan, I have to laugh about it also being called the "Flying Pig" I wonder why that was?
 
Known as Tempest in Britain, a concept model of the aircraft was on display in Warton. BAE said it would be three to four metres (10 to 13 feet) longer than the Typhoon military jet and designed to fly a longer range.
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That would put it at 19-20 metres - F-15 size, not quite F-111 as some had suspected. Edit: this is not new info, apologies
 
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Mk_IX_Hawk said:
https://www.reuters.com/business/ae...ghter-jet-project-diminishing-bae-2025-07-15/
https://www.britainsworld.org.uk/p/the-big-ask-28-2025
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Industrial division has already been agreed upon, and there's no parter who'd want to change that up who could pony up enough money that we'd agree to it outside of the United States or China (India in some people's delusions, I guess) and for rather obvious reasons neither the three partners or those other nations would agree to such a thing.

What is needed now is people within each of the agreed upon geographical divisions (Japan and East/South East Asia obviously, UK and Commonwealth, Europe and North Africa to Italy with some sort of Middle Eastern division between former British and non-former British forces the UK and Italy?) to buy the plane to use.
 

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So according to the graphic the GCAP/Tempest will be larger than the F-15 and I take it larger than the F-22 which means that the Tempest will have at least double the range of the F-15/F-22 on internal fuel only which will be good news.
 
FighterJock said:
So according to the graphic the GCAP/Tempest will be larger than the F-15 and I take it larger than the F-22 which means that the Tempest will have at least double the range of the F-15/F-22 on internal fuel only which will be good news.
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You were able to estimate the range just based on a fan art drawing? (lol)

More seriously, it's bad form to mix speculation and leaps of faith with factual statements like "will have at least double the range as XYZ".
 
LightningFan1959 said:
Industrial division has already been agreed upon, and there's no parter who'd want to change that up who could pony up enough money that we'd agree to it outside of the United States or China (India in some people's delusions, I guess) and for rather obvious reasons neither the three partners or those other nations would agree to such a thing.

What is needed now is people within each of the agreed upon geographical divisions (Japan and East/South East Asia obviously, UK and Commonwealth, Europe and North Africa to Italy with some sort of Middle Eastern division between former British and non-former British forces the UK and Italy?) to buy the plane to use.
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In the article from Reuters:
"To be part of the core programme today in the same way as Japan, Italy and the UK, because of the pace we've achieved, and where we are today becomes quite challenging now," Herman Claesen, managing director of BAE's Future Combat Air System business told reporters on Tuesday.

Of course BAE has a vested interest in keeping current work share, though the point remains that adding any core partner at this point would likely slow development, and could add delay and therefore cost to a factor greater than any financial contribution. Agree focus should be on "tier 2" purchasing partners, that also may buy into the program and co-operate on industrial aspects later down the line during production - example nations Canada, Australia etc. There was a study comparison that projected efficiency / cost on number of partners for such a project, I couldn't find it, I'll keep looking. But >3 partner the cost / efficiency was less optimal.

The second article linked, most of the opinion is towards no further core partners as this point.
 
H_K said:
The drawing's scale is messed up. It shows the F-15 to be the same length as GCAP, when in fact the F-15 is only 19.4m.
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Thanks. Even if off by 0.4m, for me it's useful to see the relative difference in wing volume (fuel etc), and width of the central body (internal carriage). But that it's not of a greater order of magnitude in size vs current larger fighters, perhaps has implications of retaining a certain amount of maneuverability.

With the caveat that we don't know if the current concept shown is close to what their current working design is, or quite different.
 
Mk_IX_Hawk said:
Even if off by 0.4m, for me it's useful to see the relative difference in wing volume (fuel etc), and width of the central body (internal carriage). But that it's not of a greater order of magnitude in size vs current larger fighters, perhaps has implications of retaining a certain amount of maneuverability.
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That wing is huge though... somewhat reminiscent of FB-22. Likely detrimental to sustained turn rate even if instantaneous maneuverability may still be quite good.
 
FighterJock said:
Let's put it this way, the GCAP/Tempest will be ONE of the best fighters on the world the other being the F-47.
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Unless the upcoming EJ200 powered demonstrator is only a subscale model, the GCAP/Tempest will only be a fighter in the same sense as the Mirage IV or North American Vigilante. This demonstrator will have a lot less public impact than the EAP did in the 1980s. Especially when a developing country like Turkey can be so much farther advanced in a comparable program like the Kaan.
 
TinWing said:
Unless the upcoming EJ200 powered demonstrator is only a subscale model, the GCAP/Tempest will only be a fighter in the same sense as the Mirage IV or North American Vigilante. This demonstrator will have a lot less public impact than the EAP did in the 1980s. Especially when a developing country like Turkey can be so much farther advanced in a comparable program like the Kaan.
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One of the most important performance factors when discussing which 5th or 6th generation fighter is superior is power generation—on a completely different scale compared to past aircraft. In the GCAP program, the UK and Japan are developing an engine with extremely high electrical output. It doesn’t make sense to put the KAAN, which uses the F110-GE-129, on the same level as GCAP, which will be equipped with a next-generation engine.
 
IRT said:
OP put the kaan in the same bracket as the next gen GCAP.. thats ridiculous.
And yes as you said, it got a long way to go before its a real fighter aircraft. Im sure it will fail.

Thanks, did not mean to comment on the Chinese designs.
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Oh, I agree that the Kaan does not sit in the same bracket in terms of capability as the GCAP.

I don't think it will fail. The Turkish government is funding the programme, and was able to siphon off much knowledge from the JSF programme into the parallel-running Kaan programme during their participation.
 
Since there hasn't been any recent news about GCAP, let me ask a question from a layman's perspective:
In the end, do next-generation fighters need tail fins? Or is a tailless design the optimal solution?
 
takacosta said:
Since there hasn't been any recent news about GCAP, let me ask a question from a layman's perspective:
In the end, do next-generation fighters need tail fins? Or is a tailless design the optimal solution?
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No i dont think so.
Im guessing tailless is optimal for rcs reduction.

Do you guys think that the renderings of the GCAP/Tempest that have been shown are actually the real planned design of the aircraft? I mean the Americans keep F47 hided for some reason.. FCAS shown one model but claimed det got several designs to chose from.
 
IRT said:
No i dont think so.
Im guessing tailless is optimal for rcs reduction.

Do you guys think that the renderings of the GCAP/Tempest that have been shown are actually the real planned design of the aircraft? I mean the Americans keep F47 hided for some reason.. FCAS shown one model but claimed det got several designs to chose from.
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Most of the recent renders have been very similar, and we've seen a lot of different angles of the same design in those renders. Whilst that's proof of nothing in itself, other programmes have shown off such a wide variety of potential designs within their promotional materials that I believe that the GCAP/Tempest will share some features with the most current model.
 
Let's get back on topic please, Kaan et al have their own thread

Oh and can those posting unrelated material please remove the posts to a more suitable discussion thread in the 'bar' (or hopefully a mod can clean up the thread ?)
 
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I hope the British version Demonstrator is shown to the public with its first flight, to show it is on track. 2027 i'm look forward to this.

I'm think they will test for a few years with equipment test and future improvement, Ie EJ200 V2 76KN + 120 KN Reheat with test Electrical Generator + CAPTOR-E ASEA Mk 2, AR-VR Head up in a later date, like 2028-29, test update/upgrade (it definitely will not include AR-VR at start demonstrator as been mentioned)

Japan will have its Japanese versions, such as Engine Japanese and AESA Japanese, etc. when they will build and fly?

I'm not sure what Italian demonstrator? Maybe use British and Japanese to test their Plane? As I can't see any info about this.

Once both the completion test, etc and share data, then build the Second Demonstrator is the GCAP Demonstrator with a final version prototype as pre-production 2030. Then full production in 2035 is on track, as I don't want to see a delay.

What I like to see UK

UK build Minimum = 144 (would like to see we order Maximum = 216) GCAP Tempest for the UK for Heavyweight Multi-Role (Twin-Engines)
Focus on Long Range Strike and Long Range Fighter, Long Range QRA, Recon, Patrol.

Off the topic
It would be nice to add
Also, get a Minimum = 36 - maximum =72 of the TA-50 / F/A-50 (Block 70) Golden Eagle "Buzzard for UK name" for Lightweight Multi-Roles (single-engine)
Focus on Short Range QRA, Close Support & Training Jet, Patrol (low-cost), ie Coast Protection

Most important roles TA-50 (and) F/A-50 focus on anti-Drone Spawn or Cruise Mission roles (Shot down use CRV-7 PG / ASRAAM) to replace Hawk & Jaguar, Harrier. (Reason I pick this as they can go fast to 1.5-1.8 Mach it is fast trainer Aircraft bonus they have a quiet good range for UK) to Support GCAP also they could use EJ200 so we could re-purpose EJ200 (upgrade them to V2) From Eurofighter Typhoon to T&F/A-50

Also bonus they already include ASRAAM and Brimstone, Spear 3, and Meteor for integration are already included. (maybe worth add British radar CAPTOR-E Mk 2 if enough size for put in to this)

Keep backup Typhoon Tranches 3 to 2040-2045, also half of them toward to the Falkland Islands and other places.

also 96 F-35 "B" + (12 F-35 "A" <-- I think stupid move they potentially use it to cancel the GCAP use excuse reason later date to get more F-35 "A" 144 of them)

Loyal Wingman
1 GCAP per 2 or 4 (144 / 288 - 576 loyal Wingman) - Possible 288
1 F35 "B" per 2 or 4 (96 / 192 - 384 Loyal Wingman) - possible 192
Total Possible (1 per 2) 480 even Potential if 1 per 4 = 1392 Loyal Wingman

Back to Topic
Update JAGUAR (Uk-JP radar) Engines? etc?

Anti-Air Meteor MLU ? will improve Engine and AESA seeker? or will new AAM France-UK (what roles it will focus on? EXLR-AAM ? 300-400 miles for AWCAS and 200 Miles for Fighter? Hypersonic Speed?)

will how big Internal Bay so FC-ASW can fit inside? or will small cruise missile ie MAKO instead FC-ASW?
 
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takacosta said:
Since there hasn't been any recent news about GCAP, let me ask a question from a layman's perspective:
In the end, do next-generation fighters need tail fins? Or is a tailless design the optimal solution?
Click to expand...
Tailless is probably the optimal solution for Low Observability.
 

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