• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Turkish TFX National Combat Aircraft

Deino

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,832
Reaction score
692
But is there anything new and finally confimative? For example has GE ever disclosed if it has delivered the engines? What's the latest on the indigenous engine?

I would assume in respect of engine. If Turkey wants this bird get to the air ASAP... they will "borrow" the F-16 engine.


That it will use two F110s for the prototypes is known, but are they simply allowed to do so?

Otherwise - and that's my point - GE announces the decision that its engines were chosen, that they reached this or that certain milestone and when they delivered them for a certain project ... for the TFX nothing from GE.
 

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
Adding this here since facility will play a huge role in future of TFX production

Turkish aerospace giant TAI to soon open world’s 4th largest composite factory​


Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is days away from opening the world's 4th largest composite factory, the company said in a statement Thursday.
TAI has already been designing and producing important composite parts for the leading global aviation companies like Airbus and Boeing.

The new generation factory is designed to be an autonomous facility and will be put into service soon. It will use artificial intelligence (AI) to eliminate possible errors in composite material production, the statement added.

TAI added that it continues to deliver as the "design owner and sole source manufacturer" of aileron used in the Airbus A350 aircraft. Flag carrier Turkish Airlines (THY) has recently included two of these aircraft in its fleet.

The aerospace firm, which has delivered 500 sets of ailerons to Airbus to date, has also accelerated the design of the composite flight control surface and strengthened its place in the market by designing and producing original products.

Continuing to work with the vision of zero error in production, the company has been designing and producing ailerons, which are important flight control surfaces used in tilting movements for Airbus A350-900 and A350-1000 aircraft since 2012. Both are among the biggest new generation passenger aircraft.

Within the scope of TAI's A350 Airfoil Program, in which 500 engineers and technicians took part, four carbon composite ailerons, each 5 meters long and 1 meter wide, are produced for each aircraft.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFJsZz8bZ2s&feature=emb_title
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
3,008
Reaction score
1,652
Nice one. But if their intend is to bypass human qualified operators to get to 100% defect free via AI (which at 90% of decision time is the result of an input from a non-qualified programmer checked by an engineer with 0 hand-on tool experience), good luck.
 
Last edited:

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
381
Reaction score
445
^ the plane in that graphic looks definitely more like the F-22 than the TFX mockup
 

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
TAI Large Subsonic Acoustic Wind Tunnel to be completed by 2023

Once the wind tunnel is completed, it is expected to serve the Turkish Fighter (MMU) first. The tunnel will then undertake important tasks in the testing stages of all platforms developed by Turkish Aerospace. The tunnel is also planned to execute tests for aircraft, helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, armed unmanned aerial vehicles, drones, ammunitions, missile systems, automobiles, race cars, trucks, radar systems, wind turbines, panels, traffic structures, construction structures, and bridges. During all tests, the newest techniques of particle image velocimetry will be used alongside classical methods such as special cameras, oil flow, and tuft tests to visualize the airflow. The Large Subsonic Acoustic Wind Tunnel, which will play an important role in indigenous product development, will increase the design capability of Turkish Aerospace in the development of air platforms. It will also contribute to the development of a domestic industry
118-88.jpg
• Single stage acoustic fan with 14.5 MW power
• A closed test section with a 6.4 m x 4.8 m test section. The maximum air speed in the test section is 126 m/s.
• A closed test section with a test section of 4.9 m x 3.7 m. The maximum air speed in the test section is 181 m/s.
• An open test section with a 6.4 m x 4.8 m test section. The maximum air speed in the test section is 107 m/s.
 

Deino

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,832
Reaction score
692
TAI Large Subsonic Acoustic Wind Tunnel to be completed by 2023

Once the wind tunnel is completed, it is expected to serve the Turkish Fighter (MMU) first. The tunnel will then undertake important tasks in the testing stages of all platforms developed by Turkish Aerospace. The tunnel is also planned to execute tests for aircraft, helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, armed unmanned aerial vehicles, drones, ammunitions, missile systems, automobiles, race cars, trucks, radar systems, wind turbines, panels, traffic structures, construction structures, and bridges. During all tests, the newest techniques of particle image velocimetry will be used alongside classical methods such as special cameras, oil flow, and tuft tests to visualize the airflow. The Large Subsonic Acoustic Wind Tunnel, which will play an important role in indigenous product development, will increase the design capability of Turkish Aerospace in the development of air platforms. It will also contribute to the development of a domestic industry
View attachment 644044
• Single stage acoustic fan with 14.5 MW power
• A closed test section with a 6.4 m x 4.8 m test section. The maximum air speed in the test section is 126 m/s.
• A closed test section with a test section of 4.9 m x 3.7 m. The maximum air speed in the test section is 181 m/s.
• An open test section with a 6.4 m x 4.8 m test section. The maximum air speed in the test section is 107 m/s.


Intersting but again this fits to all my previous post in which I question the TFX's schedule: If this windtunnel is ready only in 2023 as you mentioned and "is expected to serve the Turkish Fighter (MMU) first", how will they manage to get a prototype ready to "roll out of hangar in 18 March 2023 with and turn on its engines. The first flight is planned for two years later after ground tests have been completed." (as quoted so often!)?
 

kaiserbill

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Messages
1,385
Reaction score
296
This is not a comment on the Turkish program, and it's timings per se, as I am not following it.
But the initial wind tunnel tests could be contracted out to other wind tunnel centres. This is done often enough in the industry.
Through the life of an aircraft, wind tunnel tests would be needed for weapons design, store carriage, separation, aerodynamic modifications etc.. etc... before moving on to actual live tests.
 

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
This is not a comment on the Turkish program, and it's timings per se, as I am not following it.
But the initial wind tunnel tests could be contracted out to other wind tunnel centres. This is done often enough in the industry.
Through the life of an aircraft, wind tunnel tests would be needed for weapons design, store carriage, separation, aerodynamic modifications etc.. etc... before moving on to actual live tests.

Indeed wind tunnel services are contracted out as you mentioned, several countries have been involved in developments of Turkish Aerospace products from missiles, unmanned aircrafts and manned aircrafts.

Countries that are often used;
Switzerland - Hurkus Turboprop and Hurjet Trainer
Ukraine - Missile Projects
Malaysia - Unmanned Aircrafts
United Kingdom - TFX Project
Canada - Wind Tunnel Instrumentation Procurements

That's not to say Turkey does not have wind tunnels of it's own, there are several universities with sub-sonic wind tunnels and government based scientific institutes have wind tunnels available as well.
 

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
Last edited:

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
is there any reason why they didn't work with the Koreans this time?

Prob differences in objective.

Turkey aimed for something more ambitious than KFX, they want an F-15 class heavy fighter. Thus why new engines.
Actually back then when there were talks about the cooperation between the two, the Turkish involvement in JSF was still somewhat healthy and the Turks were venturing something more like a stealthy FA-50 which the Koreans obviously didn't needed.

You go to the first page of this thread then you'll also find how some of the members were calling it a Turkish MAKO, 9 years ago.

Add to that it was probably not acceptable for the Koreans to have same amount of share in the program like how the Turks were demanding when they never even made a supersonic aircraft and were importing a mere turboprop aircraft from them.

Quite late of a response from my side but better late than never.
 
Last edited:

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
I actually find it quite amusing how this thing got its size beefed up over the time. First it was meant to be Turkish Mako of some sort or a stealthy Gripen, a FS2020 alike. Then from round 2013 until 2016 or so it was a twin 20,000 Ibs thrust class fighter much like the Eurofighter. Soon after there was a coup and the purge, S400 deal made things spicy and eventually Turkey got kicked out of JSF. Parallel to that they made this thing a twin 25,000 Ibs class fighter much like the earlier F-15s. Then it just grows bigger and bigger and its thrusts just gets out of hand. Soon it's twin 27,000 Ibs class, then a while ago became 30,000 Ibs and now it's 30,000 +.

Dunno what made them so confident in increasing the thrust by more than 10,000 Ibs combined in span of just 2/3 years, especially when they are developing the engine themselves:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
381
Reaction score
445
is there any reason why they didn't work with the Koreans this time?

Prob differences in objective.

Turkey aimed for something more ambitious than KFX, they want an F-15 class heavy fighter. Thus why new engines.
Actually back then when there were talks about the cooperation between the two, the Turkish involvement in JSF was still somewhat healthy and the Turks were venturing something more like a stealthy FA-50 which the Koreans obviously didn't needed.

You go to the first page of this thread then you'll also find how some of the members were calling it a Turkish MAKO, 9 years ago.

Add to that it was probably not acceptable for the Koreans to have same amount of share in the program just like the Turks were demanding when they never even made a supersonic aircraft and were importing a mere turboprop aircraft from them.

Quite late of a response from my side but better late than never.

do you think something like the scale of the KFX would be more practical/achievable by TAI (a Eurofighter/Rafale weight/size aircraft)?

I remember the Mako. really sexy looking thing. the closest something Europe had to a stealthy looking fighter.. except it was a trainer and probably no bay. too bad it never got beyond a concept
1609297518885.jpeg
 

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
is there any reason why they didn't work with the Koreans this time?

Prob differences in objective.

Turkey aimed for something more ambitious than KFX, they want an F-15 class heavy fighter. Thus why new engines.
Actually back then when there were talks about the cooperation between the two, the Turkish involvement in JSF was still somewhat healthy and the Turks were venturing something more like a stealthy FA-50 which the Koreans obviously didn't needed.

You go to the first page of this thread then you'll also find how some of the members were calling it a Turkish MAKO, 9 years ago.

Add to that it was probably not acceptable for the Koreans to have same amount of share in the program just like the Turks were demanding when they never even made a supersonic aircraft and were importing a mere turboprop aircraft from them.

Quite late of a response from my side but better late than never.

do you think something like the scale of the KFX would be more practical/achievable by TAI (a Eurofighter/Rafale weight/size aircraft)?

I remember the Mako. really sexy looking thing. the closest something Europe had to a stealthy looking fighter.. except it was a trainer and probably no bay. too bad it never got beyond a concept
View attachment 647469
I can't really tell unless I know the exact requirements the turks are demanding for their aircraft. If they are looking for something like supercruise (which seems to be the case) or a high instantaneous turn rate like F-35's 50 deg. AOA or other kinds of demanding maneuvers I might suggest it would be easier to go with a smaller plane. If the maneuverability requirements are staying the same after their plans to make a bigger aircraft then definitely. The thing is, on the flipside having a bigger airframe might be easier for them to accomodate all the avionics and its cooling systems. It's just that bigger airframes are generally more complicated and expensive which might not be ideal for a relatively small economy like that of Turkey.

On top of that, my doubts regarding the size of this aircraft mainly comes from the fact that they are continuously enlarging the airframe while trying to build their own powerplant for it. Once it was a fighter jet to be powered by an engine roughly the same thrust to that of F110-PW-220 and now it's planned to be powered with something that has more thrust than a F110-PW-229, hence they are making that on their own. I would say that the same hurdles exist when building a mid sized fighter like the Eurofighter or Rafale considering the fact that EJ200, F414 and M88 are all engines with relatively high T/W ratio coupled with decent SFC numbers. It would be a tid bit easier but not by a whole lot.

Also, who dare hates MAKO...
 

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
British ambassador to Turkey Chilcott on TF-X project :

- “The first phase, design phase, continues ahead of the program schedule. It is going very well."
- “The second stage, prototype production. I think it will probably start towards the end of 2022 or early 2023. ”

Rendering - Turkey is developing a Meteor type (BVRAAM) ramjet air-to-air missile.
mmu-2-min.jpg
 
Last edited:

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
British ambassador to Turkey Chilcott on TF-X project :

- “The first phase, design phase, continues ahead of the program schedule. It is going very well."
- “The second stage, prototype production. I think it will probably start towards the end of 2022 or early 2023. ”

Rendering - Turkey is developing a Meteor type (BVRAAM) ramjet air-to-air missile.
View attachment 647545
I guess preliminary design is going well. I'm not sure how it's ahead of time tho. It's rather on time concerning the fact that PDR and start of detailed design and qualification phase was already planned to be somewhere in between late 2022 and early 23 ever since 2018, when the project started. The powerpoint by TUSAS argues the same as well.

I am still a bit surprised, by the fact that MMU is still on time when Hurjet is already delayed. Maybe that delay was indeed concerning the engine and it might be the case MMU is not importing but using the existing engines taken from F-16 for the prototype.
 

Attachments

  • tusas mmu schedule.png
    tusas mmu schedule.png
    268.2 KB · Views: 28
Last edited:

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
British ambassador to Turkey Chilcott on TF-X project :

- “The first phase, design phase, continues ahead of the program schedule. It is going very well."
- “The second stage, prototype production. I think it will probably start towards the end of 2022 or early 2023. ”

Rendering - Turkey is developing a Meteor type (BVRAAM) ramjet air-to-air missile.
View attachment 647545
I guess preliminary design is going well. I'm not sure how it's ahead of time tho. It's rather on time concerning the fact that PDR and start of detailed design and qualification phase was already planned to be somewhere in between late 2022 and early 23 ever since 2018, when the project started. The powerpoint by TUSAS argues the same as well.

I am still a bit surprised, by the fact that MMU is still on time when Hurjet is already delayed. Maybe that delay was indeed concerning the engine and it might be the case MMU is not importing but using the existing engines taken from F-16 for the prototype.
There was an error in the translation, 2021-2022 prototype production to begin

Getting ahead of potential future embargoes on machining tools, a new company was setup MİLTEKSAN AŞ with the joint venture of 11 companies for the 3/4/5 Axis Precision CNC machining machines, company will produce 3 axis in 2022, 4 axis in 2023 and 5 axis in 2024.
 

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
Gonna post this here, in-line with Turkish Aviation - not TFX related. Hürkus-C (COIN configuration) loaded with 4x MAM-L and CATS E/O ball
EqhOcpGXAAwkxA6.jpg
 

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
British ambassador to Turkey Chilcott on TF-X project :

- “The first phase, design phase, continues ahead of the program schedule. It is going very well."
- “The second stage, prototype production. I think it will probably start towards the end of 2022 or early 2023. ”

Rendering - Turkey is developing a Meteor type (BVRAAM) ramjet air-to-air missile.
View attachment 647545
I guess preliminary design is going well. I'm not sure how it's ahead of time tho. It's rather on time concerning the fact that PDR and start of detailed design and qualification phase was already planned to be somewhere in between late 2022 and early 23 ever since 2018, when the project started. The powerpoint by TUSAS argues the same as well.

I am still a bit surprised, by the fact that MMU is still on time when Hurjet is already delayed. Maybe that delay was indeed concerning the engine and it might be the case MMU is not importing but using the existing engines taken from F-16 for the prototype.
There was an error in the translation, 2021-2022 prototype production to begin

Getting ahead of potential future embargoes on machining tools, a new company was setup MİLTEKSAN AŞ with the joint venture of 11 companies for the 3/4/5 Axis Precision CNC machining machines, company will produce 3 axis in 2022, 4 axis in 2023 and 5 axis in 2024.
Wow that's a whole year saved. Impressing prgress even when taking BAE into account.

Have also heard Hurjet's prototype with F404 to be built this year. Can you confirm on that? IIRC the source was some one from either SSB or Tusas. IIRC Hurjer's CDR was already delayed once due to covid so also interesting if true.

Dunno why EJ200 fell through if using F404 is indeed true. Probably disaproval of German congress? Don't really think that the Brits would have stood against it. Talking about disaproval I'm also curious how F404 went through. F404's perfect for the role of that plane so I would say it's not half bad at all.
 
Last edited:

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
British ambassador to Turkey Chilcott on TF-X project :

- “The first phase, design phase, continues ahead of the program schedule. It is going very well."
- “The second stage, prototype production. I think it will probably start towards the end of 2022 or early 2023. ”

Rendering - Turkey is developing a Meteor type (BVRAAM) ramjet air-to-air missile.
View attachment 647545
I guess preliminary design is going well. I'm not sure how it's ahead of time tho. It's rather on time concerning the fact that PDR and start of detailed design and qualification phase was already planned to be somewhere in between late 2022 and early 23 ever since 2018, when the project started. The powerpoint by TUSAS argues the same as well.

I am still a bit surprised, by the fact that MMU is still on time when Hurjet is already delayed. Maybe that delay was indeed concerning the engine and it might be the case MMU is not importing but using the existing engines taken from F-16 for the prototype.
There was an error in the translation, 2021-2022 prototype production to begin

Getting ahead of potential future embargoes on machining tools, a new company was setup MİLTEKSAN AŞ with the joint venture of 11 companies for the 3/4/5 Axis Precision CNC machining machines, company will produce 3 axis in 2022, 4 axis in 2023 and 5 axis in 2024.
Wow that's a whole year saved. Impressing prgress even when taking BAE into account.

Have also heard Hurjet's prototype with F404 to be built this year. Can you confirm on that? IIRC the source was some one from either SSB or Tusas. IIRC Hurjer's CDR was already delayed once due to covid so also interesting if true.

Dunno why EJ200 fell through if using F404 is indeed true. Probably disaproval of German congress? Don't really think that the Brits would have stood against it. Talking about disaproval I'm also curious how F404 went through. F404's perfect for the role of that plane so I would say it's not half bad at all.

In this video, Temel Kotil, CEO of TUSAS says that Hurjet airframe will be united with it's engine in 2021 and first flight is expected in 2022. He also says in the video, that in 2021 TFX will be shown-off, he doesn't say exactly what extent, perhaps assembly images of the airframe- but further on he says in 2023 TFX will be rolled out of the hangar under it's own power.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFEJfzJr6DA&t=426s


The only official document I was able to find on F404, regarding Hurjet was GE Investor Meeting presentation from November - where it categorises F404 for International Indigenous market opportunity. 1609594885486.png

Regarding my thoughts as to why GE was chosen over Eurojet, I would say that long term relationship Tusas sister company TEI has with GE in component and part production as well as a TEI/GE joint R&D facility.

GE F110 is partially produced and licence assembled at TEI
GE T700-TEI-701D is partially produced and licence assembled at TEI
 
Last edited:

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
British ambassador to Turkey Chilcott on TF-X project :

- “The first phase, design phase, continues ahead of the program schedule. It is going very well."
- “The second stage, prototype production. I think it will probably start towards the end of 2022 or early 2023. ”

Rendering - Turkey is developing a Meteor type (BVRAAM) ramjet air-to-air missile.
View attachment 647545
I guess preliminary design is going well. I'm not sure how it's ahead of time tho. It's rather on time concerning the fact that PDR and start of detailed design and qualification phase was already planned to be somewhere in between late 2022 and early 23 ever since 2018, when the project started. The powerpoint by TUSAS argues the same as well.

I am still a bit surprised, by the fact that MMU is still on time when Hurjet is already delayed. Maybe that delay was indeed concerning the engine and it might be the case MMU is not importing but using the existing engines taken from F-16 for the prototype.
There was an error in the translation, 2021-2022 prototype production to begin

Getting ahead of potential future embargoes on machining tools, a new company was setup MİLTEKSAN AŞ with the joint venture of 11 companies for the 3/4/5 Axis Precision CNC machining machines, company will produce 3 axis in 2022, 4 axis in 2023 and 5 axis in 2024.
Wow that's a whole year saved. Impressing prgress even when taking BAE into account.

Have also heard Hurjet's prototype with F404 to be built this year. Can you confirm on that? IIRC the source was some one from either SSB or Tusas. IIRC Hurjer's CDR was already delayed once due to covid so also interesting if true.

Dunno why EJ200 fell through if using F404 is indeed true. Probably disaproval of German congress? Don't really think that the Brits would have stood against it. Talking about disaproval I'm also curious how F404 went through. F404's perfect for the role of that plane so I would say it's not half bad at all.

In this video, Temel Kotil, CEO of TUSAS says that Hurjet airframe will be united with it's engine in 2021 and first flight is expected in 2022.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFEJfzJr6DA&t=426s


The only official document I was able to find on F404, regarding Hurjet was GE Investor Meeting presentation from November - where it categorises F404 for International Indigenous market opportunity. View attachment 647734

Regarding my thoughts as to why GE was chosen over Eurojet, I would say that long term relationship Tusas sister company TEI has with GE in component and part production as well as a TEI/GE joint R&D facility.

GE F110 is partially produced and licence assembled at TEI
GE T700-TEI-701D is partially produced and licence assembled at TEI
Yeah... forgot TEI is a Tusas-GE JV. Though I've thought that the recent diplomatic problems would have prevented that. Also I've heard TR Motor's now independent from BMC, ie Quatari capital. Quite a few things seems to be changing indeed.
 

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
I would actually like to talk more about the plans and avionics involved in this program as we are mostly talking about the engines all the time. Presume that engine's there, it's still not a job done. I feel like I've never seen one giving concrete details concerning those areas.

Like we've seen on #155, TAI's thinking about block approach of development. How's the block going to look like, ie what's the difference between block 1 (airframe that is produced in 2032) and block 2? Is it only the range of weapons integration or are there further changes, for example regarding the sensors?

What's the time frame for the development of block 2 and further blocks?

The current contract with BAE only covers the first development phase, ie. preliminary design only. Will BAE keep helping out as TAC during the detailed design phase and beyond?

If IOC is 2029, what happens until 2032 regarding the production? Is there going to be LRIP?

Hell, I've never even seen concrete numbers for the total budget forecast of the program. What's the planned budget for the whole program and from that how much are they going to spend for the engine development?

I don't think that these figures don't exist but rather no one took notice. Has there not been a single occasion where these questions were asked in the parliament?

Also, why the hell is this plane planned to be designed bigger with a stronger thrust than F-15E but has a severely lower MTOW? Pardon me as I take this info from the Wikipedia because I can't access the TAI homepage but according to the annotations these figures are taken from TAI themselves so I'll believe that in this instance.

What's the empty weight in the first place? How much fuel does it require to carry? Okay the PDR ain't finished yet but those figures should already exist.

Also which flight model and control method is this thing going to use? Maybe something older like phase compensation or is it something newer like dynamic inversion?

How many channels is the FBW to be fitted with?

Guess the avinoics are going to be based on IMA because surely no one's developing a fighter jet with federated architecture these days. But how integrated is it going to be? F-22 (JIAWG) level or F-35 (Pave Pace) level? What's the digital processor of the MC going to be? Are the Turks trying to equip it with something like a SDR or integrated CNI? Are there plans for Turkish data link system other than just Link 16?

Heard the IRST is going to be based on MCT and radar based on GaN TRMs. What about the resolution of the IRST? How big is the radar array? What's the peak power figures of the TRM? Other details about BÜRFIS and BEOS? I haven't heard this plane's going to be fitted with something like F-35's EO system under the nose, thus have seen models with IRST in front of the cockpit. This probably means that an external TGP will be required for ground strike missions? If this plane is to fill the role of F-35 it should be able to conduct ground strike. Is the EW suite going to be based on Tubitak's EHPOD?

Which parts going into these avionics are to be imported and which are to be developed? Any detailed/concrete information regarding the previous efforts of developing these equipment for an aircraft (eg : Aselsan TEP for the AESA development)?


I don't think all of these could be answered but at least some could be. At least few of those questions are really basic questions I haven't had much success finding answers for. Also there must be some studies or researches regarding these matters uploaded in the online library, unless digital research/scholar libraries don't exist in Turkey; I don't believe this is the case.

There are plenty of other questions that can be asked if we step aside and forget about the engines for the sake of discussion.
 
Last edited:

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
381
Reaction score
445
what do yall think the export markets for the Hurkus is?

it competes more or less directly with the KAI Golden Eagle, which is established. and will soon compete with the Boeing/Saab T-X, which will likely dominate any sales for advance trainers.
The eastern block has the Chinese L-15.

Subsonic trainer wise, the M-346 is doing well, and the Yak-130 too.

it's pretty competitive
 

Deino

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,832
Reaction score
692
what do yall think the export markets for the Hurkus is?

it competes more or less directly with the KAI Golden Eagle, which is established. and will soon compete with the Boeing/Saab T-X, which will likely dominate any sales for advance trainers.
The eastern block has the Chinese L-15.

Subsonic trainer wise, the M-346 is doing well, and the Yak-130 too.

it's pretty competitive


You mean the Hurjet? ... the Hurkus is surely not competing with the T-50, L-15, T-7 and so on!?

And as for "it's pretty competitive" it needs to reach hardware-status first. ;)
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
381
Reaction score
445
what do yall think the export markets for the Hurkus is?

it competes more or less directly with the KAI Golden Eagle, which is established. and will soon compete with the Boeing/Saab T-X, which will likely dominate any sales for advance trainers.
The eastern block has the Chinese L-15.

Subsonic trainer wise, the M-346 is doing well, and the Yak-130 too.

it's pretty competitive


You mean the Hurjet? ... the Hurkus is surely not competing with the T-50, L-15, T-7 and so on!?

And as for "it's pretty competitive" it needs to reach hardware-status first. ;)
ah yes, with all these names being similar, I can barely rememb-HUR
 

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
what do yall think the export markets for the Hurkus is?

it competes more or less directly with the KAI Golden Eagle, which is established. and will soon compete with the Boeing/Saab T-X, which will likely dominate any sales for advance trainers.
The eastern block has the Chinese L-15.

Subsonic trainer wise, the M-346 is doing well, and the Yak-130 too.

it's pretty competitive


You mean the Hurjet? ... the Hurkus is surely not competing with the T-50, L-15, T-7 and so on!?

And as for "it's pretty competitive" it needs to reach hardware-status first. ;)
ah yes, with all these names being similar, I can barely rememb-HUR
Oh no god pls...

Jokes aside, we can't say much until the cost is revealed so... The biggest strenght of FA-50 was that it filled the gap left behind the F-5 and potentially few other attack aircrafts like the A-37 after its retirement with better avionics and further upgrade potential. There were no proper competition as the Gripen NG has gotten too expensive.

IIRC the program cost per airframe for the ROKAF was around 40 milion dollars per aircraft and flyaway cost of 25 milion.

There exists an area where L-15 shares the same market but I would say it's not much. Besides, cost of the fighrer-attacker version of the T-7 (will that be F-24 just like how T-38 became F-5?) would play the role. I would argue achieving that feat of offering a lower price than these two would already prove quite hard, especially when equipped with equivalent avionics.

Part of this would depend on how many of the Hurjet and its variants the TAF are willing to procure.
 
Last edited:

Deino

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,832
Reaction score
692
Part of this would depend on how many of the Hurjet and its variants the TAF are willing to procure.


Again ... It should be changed to: Part of this would depend on will it ever materialise and be introduced successfully by the TAF. ;)
 

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
There is some progress with TFX,
- Details about the engines will be revealed some time this year, either deals with existing engine manufacturers or indigenous development
- Laboratory work has started to develop methods of utilising additive manufacturing techniques to produce various components (bulkheads) of the TFX, if positive outcomes are reached TAI will invest heavily into additive manufacturing.
 

Deino

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,832
Reaction score
692
There is some progress with TFX,
- Details about the engines will be revealed some time this year, either deals with existing engine manufacturers or indigenous development
- Laboratory work has started to develop methods of utilising additive manufacturing techniques to produce various components (bulkheads) of the TFX, if positive outcomes are reached TAI will invest heavily into additive manufacturing.


Thanks for your efforts, but again ... how will they hold that projected timeline to roll out a prototype by 2023?
 

Bhurki

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
165
Reaction score
117
There is some progress with TFX,
- Details about the engines will be revealed some time this year, either deals with existing engine manufacturers or indigenous development
- Laboratory work has started to develop methods of utilising additive manufacturing techniques to produce various components (bulkheads) of the TFX, if positive outcomes are reached TAI will invest heavily into additive manufacturing.


Thanks for your efforts, but again ... how will they hold that projected timeline to roll out a prototype by 2023?
I don't know why, this whole sounds dubious.
 

Combat-Master

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 15, 2020
Messages
175
Reaction score
258
There is some progress with TFX,
- Details about the engines will be revealed some time this year, either deals with existing engine manufacturers or indigenous development
- Laboratory work has started to develop methods of utilising additive manufacturing techniques to produce various components (bulkheads) of the TFX, if positive outcomes are reached TAI will invest heavily into additive manufacturing.


Thanks for your efforts, but again ... how will they hold that projected timeline to roll out a prototype by 2023?
I also am interested to find out..
 

coanda

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
182
Reaction score
53
There is some progress with TFX,
- Details about the engines will be revealed some time this year, either deals with existing engine manufacturers or indigenous development
- Laboratory work has started to develop methods of utilising additive manufacturing techniques to produce various components (bulkheads) of the TFX, if positive outcomes are reached TAI will invest heavily into additive manufacturing.


Thanks for your efforts, but again ... how will they hold that projected timeline to roll out a prototype by 2023?
I also am interested to find out..
They won't, it's clearly a ridiculous notion. If they roll anything out it will be a mockup or systems/hardware demonstrator to save face.
 

Bhurki

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
165
Reaction score
117
Here we go again..
They're going about this tech as if its a diesel engine.
Even the likes of South Korea understand its not cakewalk to produce a modern turbofan.
If Turkey binds this aircraft to a domestically designed and produced engine, then its done for good.
 

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
64
Reaction score
95
Found some interesting information regarding the prototype and the engine.

1. TEI announced "engine is to be developed by TR Motor, but TEI not involved in the R&D process". They will "only manufacture it".
2. TEI claims "TF-X prototypes would be powered by their F-16 engines, produced by TEI" implying that they would use the F110 engines which are produced under license that has been granted for their Peace Onyx program.

The question is :

1. TEI is hands down the most experienced gas turbine manufacturer in Turkey. Now Turkey tries to develop a F110 class turbofan engine but someone with most know-how and expertise isn't involved in its development
2. Of course we don't know the exact clause in the license contract of F110 for Turkey but it is logical to think that using F110 for anything other than F-16 produced under Peace Onyx program, i.e. converting these licensed F110s for usage other than what it is meant to be used for is violation of the contract and also what US is usually very unhappy about.

Also there are other questions concerning the program such as the discrepancy between what TEI demanded for the development of indigenous turbofan engine and what TR Motor currently is claiming to achieve. During the first bid for the development of this Turkish engine, which was around 2 years ago, TEI claimed that they need 14 years to develop this engine. Fast forward 2020 TR Motor aims to first run this engine by 2027, fly it by 2028 and make it production ready by 2029. that is a whopping 4~5 years short of what TEI demanded just a year ago. Once again, TEI is the company that possess the most experience with anything related to gas turbine in Turkey.

Other question is the conflicting development schedule between the development timeline of the Turkish engine and the plane itself. They want to first fly the plane by 2026~2027 and mass produce starting 2029~2030. They plan to build 5 prototypes, of which 2 would be powered by F110 and 3 by their own engine. Then again the engine would only be airworthy by 2028 on earliest. So they've basically got a year to go until the end of the development schedule and before that are left with only 2 prototypes. This makes zero sense.

Last but not least, mass production only after 2 years of test flight seems woefully short and risky, if not impossible to me. Once more, Turkey has never developed, let alone flown a manned supersonic aircraft before.
 

Similar threads

Top