Archibald

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May 17 1965 - with some differences. The supersonic requirement for a trainer is canned, end result is an AlphaJet / Hawk hybrid. Staunchly subsonic, can't growth into Jaguar. Breguet still goes under and is forced into Dassault as a job program 1967-69. The program is consolidated as a Fouga Magister / T-33 replacement, eventually.

Because of Breguet weakness, the British decides to take leadership in the trainer program, which happens to be the least expensive of the two.
The said Dassault... is (logically) given leadership on AFVG, a pyrrhic victory. Indeed that instantly cut short any further direct development of the Mirage F2 - either single-seat interceptor (F3) or VG variant (Mirage G and derivatives - G4, G8...).

SNECMA gets the M45G mk.102.

The Armée de l'Air procurement, as usual, is in shamble. After some hesitation, they pick the AFVG as a possible Mirage IV successor in the long term. They reluctantly recognizes (along with the Navy) that thing small engines and turbofans provides an extremely long range / loiter time: good for an interceptor.

The French Navy (unlike Dassault and the armée de l'air) instantly falls in love with the AFVG as it provides a miniature F-111B, two generations ahead of their Crusaders. French Navy support will prove crucial in the long term.

Dassault still needs to replace the Mirage III / Mirage V (and has few love for the AFVG BUT they are trapped just like the Jaguar partners were OTL.)
They have two way forward
- a much upgraded Mirage III / Mirage V (Mirage 50, kind of - rejected: old airframe, delta wings).
- a subscale Mirage F2 (OTL Mirage F1, here called the Mirage F4)

Now the Armée de l'Air has four interceptors options (thanks Dassault for flooding them with proposals !)
- Mirage F3 with TF306E
- Mirage F1 with Atar 9K50
- Mirage F4 with a M45G-2 (beefed up Mk.104 variant)
- Mirage F5 with M53

In turn, this set SNECMA into turmoil and anxiety: they have to pick one engine among the four (!)

Atar is at the end of its development rope with the 9K50 and thus Mirage F1 is rejected.
Leaving M53 paper project versus existing M45 vs TF306E.
M53 kick the bucket, and SNECMA is unable to chose.
In the end, cost and politics gets the F4 rather than the F3; and the M45G rather than TF306E.

So by 1970, Armée de l'Air future is firmly set around
- Mirage F4
- AFVG for strike (nuclear strike in the long term)
- Possibly, an AFVG interceptor if budgets allows for it.

The French Navy is considering a mix of naval AFVG with naval Mirage F4 as "Plan B". In both cases, the Navy, startled, realizes that the diminutive turbofan, with its very low fuel consumption, yields amazing loiter times. A naval AFVG can patrol away from the Clemenceaus from quite a long time.
Even the fixed wing, single engine Mirage F4 beat the crap of any M53, J79, Spey, TF306E or Atar naval numerous "naval Mirage F" proposal.

SNECMA finally get their heads out of the sand and realize the M45G could have potential as an extremely lightweight and compact engine. Low fuel consumption, advanced technology. It only needs more thrust. RR answers positively and pulls a Mk.104 with 20% more thrust.
 
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Jaguar in real life is fortunate in that it neatly solves two problems. The RAF need a more realistic Hunter replacement than P1154. TheAdA has a requirement to replace its F100 Super Sabres rather than the complex Mirage IIIV. The RAF takes until 1970 to decide on Jaguar as an F4 replacement.
I am not sure if either were very keen on AFVG.
There seems to be some confusion in the UK about what AFVG is there to do. The RN requirement lapses in 1966. The AFVG for the RAF is a strike aircraft to replace P1154 and supplement the F111K. In the longer term it is a candidate to replace Lightnings and F4s in the fighter/role. But it is also.mentioned as an F111K/Vulcan replacement.
It is hard to see BAC yielding design leadership on AFVG for a trainer project (it still had hopes for its P45 in either fixed or vg variant).
However, if you widen AFVG to bring in W Germany the three way split becomes attractive. The Germans bring money.
The trainer then also becomes the Alpha/Hawk.
The AdA may still go with more Mirage IIIE to replace the Super Sabres but in the nuclear role AFVG or as it becomes TriVG fits the needs of all three countries.
The Germans did look at Jaguar as a G91 replacement but as in RW the AlphaHawk takes on this role.
 
If AFVG goes ahead we have avionics fits for both Strike and Fighter ongoing at that time.
The Strike setup is later proposed for Tornado but looses to German licensing of US kit.
The Fighter AI set ends up supporting next generation all digital FMICW. But this earlier FMICW set showed good results prior to being downgraded to research effort, cancelled and then resurrected to help develop Foxhunter.

Uk engin firms wanted to move on from M45, Bristol's efforts
I seem to recall form basis of RB.199?
 
Ok to sum it up. On one hand you have Mirage G with the "M45G Mk104" engine Archibald is proposing that is effectively an RB199 clone or roughly on par with it powering a 40-50,000 lbs aircraft as opposed to the 60,000 lbs aircraft that the real life Tornado became. In French terms that's for every practical purpose Mirage ACF brought to service by about 1979 not a Tornado clone, although the strike version certainly can do the Tornado job.

In addition to this you have the so called Mirage F4 which is effectively Mirage F1E but with AFVG derived avionics and FBW most probably. How do you go on from there? No Mirage 2000 or 4000 obviously the Mirage F4/Mirage G sorry AFVG combination is taking up this niche. So what about what became Rafale and Eurofighter? The obvious answer to me would be an AFVG derivative throwing away the variable wing for a delta wing... that enters service by around 1990 or so, effectively something like BAe P.110/Rafale A/Mirage 4000.

But where do we go post that? IMO if the TTL Rafale/Eurofighter equivalent has been out of the way from the early 1990s and by then there is also a quarter century of Anglo-French joint projects the obvious next step is French and British getting earlier in the 5th generation aircraft business, TTL the let's call it Typhon/Typhoon replacement is needed in the 2020-2025 timeframe...
 
Considering the AFVG is a mid 60's project, one might reasonably expect ISD by the mid 70's, not the end of that decade.
 
The Mirage F4 will compete in the deal of the century, obviously. Not sure it stands a chance again the F-16. Depends from Belgium buying it before the Netherlands start pestering them (they didn't liked Dassault).

First Tornado flew in 1974 and IOC was in the early 80's but Dassault leadership should help accelerating the schedule.

Everything single Dassault OTL combat aircraft post Mirage F1 (F4 ITTL) is dead.
- Mirage G
- G4 Mirage IV successor
- G8 scaled down
- G8A / ACF
- Mirage F1E-M53
- Mirage 2000
- Mirage 4000

Without the Jaguar the 70's "budget crunch" is avoided and large numbers of Mirage F4 and AFVG can be procured to standardize the fleet.
In Armée de l'Air service AFVG will have three roles
- Conventional strike, high-end to the Mirage F4
- Mirage IV replacement with ASMP ramjet cruise missile
- ADV interceptor , once again a high end to the F4.

The French Navy is a win-win situation. For sure, the AFVG must keep tight weight limits to fit on the Clemenceaus. If it burst them or proves too expensive, then a naval F4 will be procured instead.
In every case
-Super Etendard never happens
- Crusaders are withdrawn in the late 70's.

As for the Rafale Typhoon early history, starting from 1977... fact is the AFVG is a far better start. As suggested I can see the VG being dropped and analog (later digital) FBW being adopted.
Depends if Dassault is an arse or not.
What is sure is that unlike OTL, SNECMA and the Aéronavale are under control.

end result is a fighter hybrid of Tornado ADV and Bae P.110.
 
The Mirage F4 will compete in the deal of the century, obviously. Not sure it stands a chance again the F-16. Depends from Belgium buying it before the Netherlands start pestering them (they didn't liked Dassault).

Depends rather on what happens with the F-104G replacement project. I really don't see the Germans joining in AFVG. Why? Because they were claiming to want to build 600 aircraft and demanding a similar industrial share. That when Britain and France combined were supposed to be building 300-350 aircraft. No way France or for that matter Britain will be willing to give the Germans 50% industrial share or even the 42.5% of OTL. So arguably you end with single engined Panavia Panther developed by Germany, Italy and Netherlands.

This way though you have broken up the 4 countries of the deal of the century and Belgium buys Mirage F4. Add to this that the TTL Mirage F4 has a good turbofan, better radar from the British connection, FBW and BVR capability with the Super 530 which F-16 does not. Then enter the Greeks. They have already ordered 40 Mirage F4 in TTL 1974 and by the second half of the 1970s they are loking into 120-160 aircraft with local production in Greece, these with varous political delays ended up ordered in the early 1980s. With Mirage F4 already in service it makes sense to choose that by around 1980, cost would be the same to the split orders of 80 aircraft of OTL. Of course the air force wanted F-18 but that's a different story... Add a final order of 40-60 aircraft around 1990. Then come 1999 you have alt-Typhoon competing with F-15H.


Depends if Dassault is an arse or not.

I don't see why Dassault should be a problem TTL. For every practical purpose the British are buying HIS designs while he also gets British engines and electronics. It's a win win situation for him. If you need an additional early sweetener have Mirage IV* ordered instead of F-111K...
 
What is a Mirage F4? Was it a fighter variant of the Mirage IV? I've had a quick look on Google but only the Mirage IV appears.
 
This is a fantasy topic so I wouldn't take anything here as gospel. A Mirage F4 project did exist, it was essentially an enlarged Mirage F2 with twin TF30 or Spey engines. (Source: Michel Liebert & Sebastien Buyck - Le Mirage F1 et les Mirage de seconde generation a voilure en fleche)
 
This is an interesting thread because it reinforces the real world story of how TSR2 evolves into.Tornado
It is now clear that TSR2 had become a Valiant rather than Canberra replacement. This single nuclear delivery role meant that a.cheaper aircraft was needed for the Canberra non-nuclear roles.
At the same time P1154 had become a Canberra nuclear role replacement as well as a Hunter replacement.
The RAF solution was to replace both aircraft with the F4 Phantom (with F111K for the Valiant role).
BAC meanwhile touted various swing-wing designs. By 1965 these had produced P45 and AFVG.
The survival of BAC as the provider of the RAF strike aircraft for the 70s/80s led to the need for a partner. After Dassault killed the AFVG deal, the RAF and BAC built a Jaguar S variant to replace P1154. A partner was still needed for the larger VG design.
Germany was the only other choice. This killed the Valiant/Vulcan range replacement (Tornado was unable to reach Murmansk for example). The USAF Heyford and Lakenheath F111 wings filled this gap for SACEUR. Tornado became the long term Hunter/Canberra/Lightning replacement.
Dassault were left to try and replace the F100/Mirage III and IV. Jaguar replaced the F100. Mirage F1 and 2000 replaced the Mirages. No Dassault swing wing or VSTOL design entered service.
If Dassault had known this in 1966 would he have been more enthusiastic about AFVG. The AFVG/Jaguar deal could have worked much better for both BAC and Dassault. A genuine partnership between the two firms could have led to a BAC/Dassault Rafale. Instead it was MBB and Aetitalia.
 
OR.339 had two Radius Of Action requirements.
600nm
And 1,000nm

NMBR.3 had I think a 250nm-295nm ROA requirement.

AFVG could meet the two lower figures. But it took F111 with drop tanks or TSR.2 to meet the higher figure.

Yet V-Bombers had figures much more substantial, even the low level Pathfinder had a 1,500nm requirement.


Dassault does seem to have missed a trick here.
 
If Dassault had known this in 1966 would he have been more enthusiastic about AFVG.

Don't forget, Breguet won the "small" aircraft (ECAT to AFVG) only to go bankrupt soon thereafter... and in the name of industrial jobs, Dassault was forced to digest Breguet and take all their plants and employees. It took a very long time.

Overall, Dassault / Armée de l'Air relationship was a complete, dysfuntional mess, marred by out-of-the-blue OR / RFP. The AdA didn't really knew what its REALISTIC need was.
They were self-obssed with a French Phantom, really. That's the crux of the matter. Except that France definitively could NOT afford 450 Phantoms AND Force de Frappe altogether.
(450 ? that's the absolute minimal number of combat aircraft the Armée de l'Air stuck until 1993, even if that meant mostly obsolete Mirage III-E, Mirage V and unmodernized Jaguars).

The AFVG is a rather interesting ploy to kill that "450 Phantom" obsession once and for all. OTL it staunchly refused to die, all the way from 1957 to 1997.
The end result was an outstanding number of twin-jet prototypes and paper projects
- Mirage IV-C (1957)
- AFVG (1966)
- Mirage G4 (1967)
- Mirage G8 (1970)
- G8A / ACF (1972)
- Mirage 4000 (1975)
- ACX / Rafale (1983- present day - yes, but at the cost of the "Typhoon split". )

By this point, really, the best way forward is a hi-lo mix of AFVG and Mirage F1-RB.172.
- they share the same engine
- the AdA has its fabled twin-jet machine once and for all
- the smaller aircraft can be procured in larger numbers and also be sold abroad, deal of the century included.
 
The origin of the 1,000 mile radius of action for OR.339 seems to have been lost to time but my own theory is that it was simply aligned to the USAF (and thus default NATO) definition of a light bomber of which the Canberra was representative, a bomber with a radius of action of 1,000nm or less. The basic nuclear armament of the Canberra was a single Red Beard (though those aircraft assigned to SACEUR used US weapons) and by 1957 the Canberra force was receiving the Low Altitude Bombing System (LABS) to deliver this weapon. Therefore, OR.339 was specified as a much improved low altitude light bomber with a 1,000nm range capable of carrying a Red Beard to replace a light bomber conducting low altitude operations with Red Beard class weapons. However, OR.339 and the resultant TSR-2 was absolutely not a 'single nuclear delivery role' aircraft, it had a substantial conventional payload and a significant reconnaissance role/capability.

Coming out of the 1957 review the light bomber force was arguably, aside from Bomber Command, the most important element of RAF airpower. Linking to this thread, 150 Canberras were assigned to SACEUR alone (112 bombers and 38 reconnaissance aircraft). Additionally there was the Akrotiri Strike wing (32 bombers and a recce squadron) for the CENTO mission, 1 bomber and 1 recce squadron at Singapore for the SEATO mission and a further recce squadron at Wyton. Thats over 200 aircraft in frontline squadrons and likely explains the very early 200-320 procurement numbers occasionally quoted for OR.339 and the overall importance given to the programme. TSR-2 may be considered an early-mid 1960s programme but it was conceived in the context of 1957.

The replacement of 64 Canberras with 24 Valiants had no impact on the technical characteristics required from OR.339. However, the progressive reduction in numbers that this began (it reduced Canberra equivalents by 16), accelerated by the retirement without replacement of those 24 Valiants in 1964/65 would have been reflected in less OR.339 aircraft being required. Similarly, the ability of TSR-2 to dual carry the OR.1177 weapon and that weapons applicability to smaller aircraft, e.g. P.1154 and then Jaguar, would have similarly reduced the overall number of OR.339 aircraft required.

Medium Bombers had a range of 1,000nm to 2,500nm or less. The low altitude part of the pathfinder flight profile was limited to a period of time searching over the target area, it was not the full flight profile.
 
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To fair to the AdA the logical replacement for its 150 nuclear capable F100s would have been 150 F4s. Like the UK, if the French had remained in the SACEUR/SACLANT role it could have used US supplied weapons for its NATO commitments.
The German F4s were the best Phantoms in the fighter and recce roles. France would have been a further customer (though Mirage 2000 seems not a bad F4 replacement).
The AFVG/Jaguar programme could have been a real win/win for both countries. Dassault must take most of the blame for missing the chance.
 
I don't think the Jaguar would have received such funding as it got, had the AFVG moved onward to prototypes, developments and production.
Logic suggests Jaguar numbers would be cut to save funds for the AFVG, on the assumption MRI would be handed to some 70 out of 140 aircraft.
 
Assuming AFVG becomes an earler version of Tornado the UK requirement for Jaguar S drops to 3 squadrons. But as with MRCA, AFVG would have taken more time to develop than Jaguar. It is possible that both the RAF and Ada would have still needed Jags in the early 70s.
 
The budget wouldn't allow for it. The AdA needed a single engine cheaper type to start replacing the huge mass of Mirage III of all types they had procured - 473 airframes. OTL it was a disorganized mess - Jaguar, Mirage F1 and later Mirage 2000, it took 20 years or more.

AFVG only has a small niche - Mirage IV replacement extended "downwards" to large interceptor and all-weather, non-nuclear, tactical strike. Even then, the numbers procured will be, by necessity, quite reduced, perhaps 150. Everything else will be something akin to a Mirage III-E or a F1.
Then again, if AFVG can be folded into a Clemenceau carrier, then it could potentially wipeout both Crusader and Etendard and get 113 more airframes. Total 263 machines for France.
 
With AFVG going forward, the AI FMICW set for ADV type Fighter operations would reach IOC by early 70's.
UK strike avionics was well along, based on Q-band radar, and again could be IOC by mid 70's.

But making this carrier compatible for the French is quite a task.
Which is why the Mirage G using a Spey resolves that, but detracts finance from twin engined Airforce solution.

However RAF order for 160 or so ADV with 60 IOC by early 70's 220 or so IDS, with initial 70 IOC by mid 70's
 
The budget wouldn't allow for it. The AdA needed a single engine cheaper type to start replacing the huge mass of Mirage III of all types they had procured - 473 airframes. OTL it was a disorganized mess - Jaguar, Mirage F1 and later Mirage 2000, it took 20 years or more.

AFVG only has a small niche - Mirage IV replacement extended "downwards" to large interceptor and all-weather, non-nuclear, tactical strike. Even then, the numbers procured will be, by necessity, quite reduced, perhaps 150. Everything else will be something akin to a Mirage III-E or a F1.
Then again, if AFVG can be folded into a Clemenceau carrier, then it could potentially wipeout both Crusader and Etendard and get 113 more airframes. Total 263 machines for France.

I'm counting 161 AdA orders if it continues, the Mirage 2000N and Mirage 2000D ones. With the Mirage 2000C becoming Mirage F-1E equivalents with FBW and better electronics. So at least 400 of these built, up to 560 really if the 160 Jaguars become Mirage F1s instead. I'm far less certain what happens afterwards. What the hell is Rafale supposed to be replacing TTL and does it make more sense to have it a a delta wing AFVG evolution (call it Mirage 4000/P.110/Rafale A) that can br in service by the late 1980s to try contesting Saudi orders for example... if it exists at all?

Post that AFVF and Mirage F1E will need a replacement in service by around 2015-2020. Have we just opened the road for a French 5th generation fighter project? Because I surely don't see France joining the F-35 equivalent...
 
The nub of the problem remains the BAC/Dassault tussle over design leadership on AFVG.
Neither company could afford to give way. Dassault goes on to meet the Ada requirements with Mirage 2000.
BAC goes on to Tornado.
AFVG could have met the requirements sooner but it would have been a rougher journey.
France is happier with national programmes or at least ones where the result is more or less a French design.
The UK needs collaboration because its economy is bust and it spreads the political burden as well. BAC must have envied Dassault.
 
I don't want to create too many new threads, so I will use that one as a "dumping ground" for M45 related ideas.

Whatif SNECMA, the French and Dassault had some "light bulb moment" circa 1969 and grasped the M45 potential ? as a low end to M53 and Atar successor ?

Let's the aircraft porn begin !

- SMB-2 with M45 (Israel put J52s into their SMB-2s so why not ?)
- Vautour with M45s
- Etendard IVM with M45
- Mirage IV-P with M45s
- Mirage III-W with M45 (as a F-5 competitor)
- Mirage G8 with M45s (Did I just said Tornade-O ?)
- "mini 4000" with M45s (did I just said "Mirage 3000" ?)
- Super Etendard with M45
- Caravelle 12 with M45H
- supersonic Falcon bizjet with afterburning M45s (Carreidas 160 anybody ?)
 
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Factor in marine GT as well. A neat Proteus or Tyne successor?
 
I don't want to create too many new threads, so I will use that one as a "dumping ground" for M45 related ideas.

Whatif SNECMA, the French and Dassault had some "light bulb moment" circa 1969 and grasped the M45 potential ? as a low end to M53 and Atar successor ?

Let's the aircraft porn begin !

- SMB-2 with M45 (Israel put J52s into their SMB-2s so why not ?)
- Vautour with M45s
- Etendard IVM with M45
- Mirage IV-P with M45s
- Mirage III-W with M45 (as a F-5 competitor)
- Mirage G8 with M45s (Did I just said Tornade-O ?)
- "mini 4000" with M45s (did I just said "Mirage 3000" ?)
- Super Etendard with M45
- Caravelle 12 with M45H
- supersonic Falcon bizjet with afterburning M45s (Carreidas 160 anybody ?)
M45G was too weak an engine IMO? I mean 13,200 lbs wet? It may be small but it's also much inferior to RB199 which was already weaker than contemporary engines. Compared to... Atar 9 it is a few hundred lbs less than 9C used in Mirage III and IV and nearly 3,000 less than 9K50 in Mirage F1. Now bring it up to RB199 levels and things get more interesting...
 
Yes I mentionned that point but in another thread (damn it !)
M45G was 5500 kg thrust, I found the exact number on Google books. So indeed inferior to any Atar 9 (6000 to 7200 kg)
But the sfc and weight savings would be huge.
Atar is at core a Me-262 engine.
M45G is Tornado generation.
Still superior to the older Atar 101s so a boon for SMB-2 Vautour and Etendard IVM.
 
May 17 1965 - with some differences. The supersonic requirement for a trainer is canned, end result is an AlphaJet / Hawk hybrid. Staunchly subsonic, can't growth into Jaguar. Breguet still goes under and is forced into Dassault as a job program 1967-69. The program is consolidated as a Fouga Magister / T-33 replacement, eventually.

Because of Breguet weakness, the British decides to take leadership in the trainer program, which happens to be the least expensive of the two.
The said Dassault... is (logically) given leadership on AFVG, a pyrrhic victory. Indeed that instantly cut short any further direct development of the Mirage F2 - either single-seat interceptor (F3) or VG variant (Mirage G and derivatives - G4, G8...).

SNECMA gets the M45G mk.102.

The Armée de l'Air procurement, as usual, is in shamble. After some hesitation, they pick the AFVG as a possible Mirage IV successor in the long term. They reluctantly recognizes (along with the Navy) that thing small engines and turbofans provides an extremely long range / loiter time: good for an interceptor.

The French Navy (unlike Dassault and the armée de l'air) instantly falls in love with the AFVG as it provides a miniature F-111B, two generations ahead of their Crusaders. French Navy support will prove crucial in the long term.

Dassault still needs to replace the Mirage III / Mirage V (and has few love for the AFVG BUT they are trapped just like the Jaguar partners were OTL.)
They have two way forward
- a much upgraded Mirage III / Mirage V (Mirage 50, kind of - rejected: old airframe, delta wings).
- a subscale Mirage F2 (OTL Mirage F1, here called the Mirage F4)

Now the Armée de l'Air has four interceptors options (thanks Dassault for flooding them with proposals !)
- Mirage F3 with TF306E
- Mirage F1 with Atar 9K50
- Mirage F4 with a M45G-2 (beefed up Mk.104 variant)
- Mirage F5 with M53

In turn, this set SNECMA into turmoil and anxiety: they have to pick one engine among the four (!)

Atar is at the end of its development rope with the 9K50 and thus Mirage F1 is rejected.
Leaving M53 paper project versus existing M45 vs TF306E.
M53 kick the bucket, and SNECMA is unable to chose.
In the end, cost and politics gets the F4 rather than the F3; and the M45G rather than TF306E.

So by 1970, Armée de l'Air future is firmly set around
- Mirage F4
- AFVG for strike (nuclear strike in the long term)
- Possibly, an AFVG interceptor if budgets allows for it.

The French Navy is considering a mix of naval AFVG with naval Mirage F4 as "Plan B". In both cases, the Navy, startled, realizes that the diminutive turbofan, with its very low fuel consumption, yields amazing loiter times. A naval AFVG can patrol away from the Clemenceaus from quite a long time.
Even the fixed wing, single engine Mirage F4 beat the crap of any M53, J79, Spey, TF306E or Atar naval numerous "naval Mirage F" proposal.

SNECMA finally get their heads out of the sand and realize the M45G could have potential as an extremely lightweight and compact engine. Low fuel consumption, advanced technology. It only needs more thrust. RR answers positively and pulls a Mk.104 with 20% more thrust.
 
M.45 like RB.153 doesn't weigh as heavy as similar sized turbojets let alone the likes of Atar, Avon, Sapphire and J79.
It is a step towards the RB.199 and in terms of power-to-weight ratio is vastly superior to older engines.

So much so RB.153 was examined as a replacement for Avons in new build Lightnings. With no drop in performance.

Furthermore when we look at reheated thrust, despite it's similarities with dry thrust turbojets, the combination of convergent/divergent exhaust nozzles and higher temperature/velocity exhaust gases. Mean these engines in reheat deliver higher performance than dry thrust turbojets of such similar power.

It's only in comparison between similar sized turbojets and turbofans that we see the fans have superior s.f.c and the jets higher thrust or attitude and speed performance.
 
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