Taildog / SRAAM / ASRAAM family

timmymagic said:
ASRAAM customers to date:

Royal Air Force (Block 6 will completely replace legacy Asraam from 2022 onwards)
Royal Australian Air Force (Questions remain about Asraam's future in RAAF service)
Indian Air Force (Unclear if Block 6 is part of the deal)
Qatar Emiri Air Force (Likely Asraam Block 6 only when delivered).
Royal Air Force of Oman (Likely Asraam Block 6 only when delivered).
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I suspect that once the Super Hornets get retired, the Aussies may get ASRAAMs for the F-35s.
 
timmymagic said:
Here's the state of play for CAMM and ASRAAM Customers if the Swedish sale goes through (realistically its one of the few options for the Visby Class)...

CAMM/CAMM-ER customers to date:

British Army
Royal Navy
Royal New Zealand Navy
Chilean Navy
Brazilian Navy
Italian Navy
Italian Air Force
Italian Army
Royal Canadian Navy
Pakistan Navy
Polish Army
Polish Navy
Royal Saudi Navy
Swedish Navy

The British Army'should' be getting CAMM-ER in the near future, Cmdr 7AD has said as much, and 'medium ranged' AD is in the pipeline. You'd also have to think that CAMM-MR is also on the cards from 2030 for the UK and Poland at least. What that means for the RN is anyones guess, the Army and Navy share a common stockpile of missiles...
Still the potential of the Brazilian Marines as well and I suspect other sales are in the works...particularly in the Gulf.

ASRAAM customers to date:

Royal Air Force (Block 6 will completely replace legacy Asraam from 2022 onwards)
Royal Australian Air Force (Questions remain about Asraam's future in RAAF service)
Indian Air Force (Unclear if Block 6 is part of the deal)
Qatar Emiri Air Force (Likely Asraam Block 6 only when delivered).
Royal Air Force of Oman (Likely Asraam Block 6 only when delivered).
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Ukrainian Army?
 
Forest Green said:
Ukrainian Army?
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Good point...

Not sure which branch it is that is using it though, could be the Air Force. We just dont know. It is just a 'temporary' system and it's not CAMM, and its not really Asraam either (in its air launched guise). Plus there is a limit on how long it could last in service (the number of Asraam Block V and lower supplied, plus their life expiry).
 
Forest Green said:
Ukrainian Army?
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timmymagic said:
Not sure which branch it is that is using it though, could be the Air Force.
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I don't know about the Ukrainian airforce however the Ukrainian army has created, no doubt with help from MBDA, a ground launcher for the ASRAAM and apparently it has already been used successfully several times in shooting cruise-missiles and Shaheed drones IIRC.
 
NMaude said:
I don't know about the Ukrainian airforce however the Ukrainian army has created, no doubt with help from MBDA, a ground launcher for the ASRAAM and apparently it has already been used successfully several times in shooting cruise-missiles and Shaheed drones IIRC.
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And the ocasional Alligator.
 
NMaude said:
I don't know about the Ukrainian airforce however the Ukrainian army has created, no doubt with help from MBDA, a ground launcher for the ASRAAM and apparently it has already been used successfully several times in shooting cruise-missiles and Shaheed drones IIRC
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I'm not sure if its the Army or Air Force who operate it. But all the work was done in the UK....delivered as a working unit to Ukraine.
 
Looks like the Comms team got the nod again to publish....

CAMM for the Swedish Navy Visby Class....and likely for the enlarged Visby Class in the early 2030's...

For a missile that has yet to see combat (apart from in its Asraam guise from RAF and Ukrainian AD lashup system) it really is doing exceptionally well. It's trials data and competitiveness in price and integration must be exceptional.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1725200830670774396
View: https://twitter.com/MBDAGroup/status/1725200830670774396?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Press Release

Sweden orders MBDA’s CAMM air defence missile​

16/11/2023
MBDA is pleased to announce it has signed a contract in Sweden to deliver Common Anti-air Modular Missiles (CAMMs) for the Swedish Armed Forces.
The contract - signed between MBDA and the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration FMV (Swedish: Försvarets materielverk) - will see MBDA supply CAMM for the Royal Swedish Navy’s five Visby Class Corvettes, which will deploy them from MBDA’s Sea Ceptor naval air defence system.
Sea Ceptor is a latest generation naval air defence system, providing robust self- and local area- air defence against simultaneous attacks, including saturation attacks, across the full 360° threat axis. With a wide target set from supersonic anti-ship missiles to attack helicopters and un-crewed air vehicles, the system has been designed to counter advanced threats.

Eric Beranger, CEO of MBDA, said: “CAMM will provide Sweden and the Royal Swedish Navy with a formidable air defence capability that gives the country a strong new contribution to NATO together with other allied Sea Ceptor users like the Royal Navy from the United Kingdom. We’re proud also to be continuing our long history of partnership with Sweden and Swedish industry, including Saab.”
MBDA has a long history of partnership with Sweden. This is exemplified within the MBDA-led Meteor missile programme where Sweden is a strategic and valued partner nation. Sweden’s SAAB is also a member of the joint partnership with MBDA on the TAURUS cruise missile. Co-operation with Sweden also includes AKERON MP.

Sweden joins a growing list of militaries worldwide that have chosen to rely on the CAMM family for latest generation naval and ground based air defence, including major recent orders from Poland, as well as the UK, Italy, Canada, Brazil, and more.
 
NMaude said:
Any details or links, please?
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There is little to nothing out there.

But as all the components are from UK stores (Asraam missiles, Tornado missile rails, HMT600 from Soothsayer, EO/IR from Protected Eyes) and all the expertise on those systems and integration of them is in the UK there is zero chance of any of the work being done in Ukraine. UK has developed and tested, then delivered and trained that system to Ukraine. Same as the Brimstone launcher setup.

The idea that the Ukrainians could receive all of these seperate components, none of which they are familiar with, with technical documentation all in English 'technical' language, to a country at war and under attack, whose entire military technical engineering staff are working 24-7 on repairing, building and improving existing systems... could then turn around and hook all these bits together in to a working system in a matter of months is risible I'm afraid.
 
kqcke for you said:
Maybe IRIS-T could level the field but atleast for now its jot gonna get on ships.
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The German's have got a lot of people to sign up to the Sky Shield initiative.....which is supposed to use IRIS-T SLM as the medium range component. However, when you look at the countries that have joined a lot are already committed to NASAMS or (in the UK's case) Land Ceptor, with other large nations like Poland, France, Italy and Spain noticeably absent and committed to other systems like SAMP-T, Land Ceptor or NASAMS.

The German's seem to have no desire to put IRIS-T SLM or SLX on ships....they're committed to ESSM, RAM and SM-2. I suspect without them pushing it it won't go anywhere.
 
I have to say that LPS development and integration on warships is now a must....I think you could guarantee a sale to Sweden. It would be an incredible weapon to be used in their CONOPS.

Swedish FMV announcement around CAMM - Details on development timeline highlighted in Bold.

The Visby corvettes get an anti-aircraft robot​

FMV has today signed a contract with MBDA UK Ltd to supply the corvette type Visby with the anti-aircraft robot CAMM, Common Anti-air Modular Missiles. The corvettes will thus be equipped with the ship-based anti-aircraft robot system Sea Ceptor. This is one of the world's premier ship-based short-range anti-aircraft robotic systems. FMV and Saab Kockums will begin installation at the end of 2025 with planned delivery of the first vessel to the Swedish Armed Forces just over a year later.


- FMV's focus is, and has been, to ensure that the Swedish Armed Forces get this capability as soon as possible. We have worked intensively and focused together with the supplier MBDA, Saab Kockums and the Swedish Armed Forces to get everything in place, says Per Sundström, project manager for the mid-term modification of the corvette type Visby at FMV's marine operations area.
A main task for the project, which the Swedish Armed Forces gave FMV, is to add the new anti-aircraft robot capability in connection with the mid-term modification of the Visby corvettes. With anti-aircraft robots, the corvette type Visby gets opportunities to defend a considerably larger area and fight air targets at longer distances. It will thus provide an extended range for the ship's air defense, compared to the ranges offered by the weapon systems that the ships have today.
Since 2021, FMV together with Saab Kockums AB has been working on a so-called product definition phase before the mid-term modification of the ships. This work has resulted in the selected supplier and the anti-aircraft robot system Sea Ceptor.
 
timmymagic said:
The German's have got a lot of people to sign up to the Sky Shield initiative.....which is supposed to use IRIS-T SLM as the medium range component. However, when you look at the countries that have joined a lot are already committed to NASAMS or (in the UK's case) Land Ceptor, with other large nations like Poland, France, Italy and Spain noticeably absent and committed to other systems like SAMP-T, Land Ceptor or NASAMS.
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Nasams ist compatable with Iris-T SLS and maybe SLM so its Not that Bad
timmymagic said:
The German's seem to have no desire to put IRIS-T SLM or SLX on ships....they're committed to ESSM, RAM and SM-2. I suspect without them pushing it it won't go anywhere.
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Because its Not gonna be an easy route to get in ml.41 integrated.
 
MBDA claim the 99 kg soft launched Sea Ceptor has a range in excess of 25 km and therefore able to defend an area of ~ 2,000 sq km whereas Defense Aerospace quotes Raytheon as saying Iron Dome can defend a territory of 155 sq km, which makes the 90 kg Tamir missile range 7 km.

Even allowing for Sea Ceptor's soft launch which MBDA claim saves 30% in nominal launch weight compared to having the missile accelerate out of a the tube and with the missiles extra 9 kg mass why such a large difference in range for the two missiles?
 
Cordy said:
MBDA claim the 99 kg soft launched Sea Ceptor has a range in excess of 25 km and therefore able to defend an area of ~ 2,000 sq km whereas Defense Aerospace quotes Raytheon as saying Iron Dome can defend a territory of 155 sq km, which makes the 90 kg Tamir missile range 7 km.

Even allowing for Sea Ceptor's soft launch which MBDA claim saves 30% in nominal launch weight compared to having the missile accelerate out of a the tube and with the missiles extra 9 kg mass why such a large difference in range for the two missiles?
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Iron Dome is hyperspecialized for one mission: cheap SRBM intercepts. A lot of the differences stem from that.
 
Cordy said:
MBDA claim the 99 kg soft launched Sea Ceptor has a range in excess of 25 km and therefore able to defend an area of ~ 2,000 sq km whereas Defense Aerospace quotes Raytheon as saying Iron Dome can defend a territory of 155 sq km, which makes the 90 kg Tamir missile range 7 km.

Even allowing for Sea Ceptor's soft launch which MBDA claim saves 30% in nominal launch weight compared to having the missile accelerate out of a the tube and with the missiles extra 9 kg mass why such a large difference in range for the two missiles?
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Its also 9mm thinner, 20cm shorter, has more Control surfaces and needs to be extrem cheap.
 
Cordy said:
MBDA claim the 99 kg soft launched Sea Ceptor has a range in excess of 25 km and therefore able to defend an area of ~ 2,000 sq km whereas Defense Aerospace quotes Raytheon as saying Iron Dome can defend a territory of 155 sq km, which makes the 90 kg Tamir missile range 7 km.

Even allowing for Sea Ceptor's soft launch which MBDA claim saves 30% in nominal launch weight compared to having the missile accelerate out of a the tube and with the missiles extra 9 kg mass why such a large difference in range for the two missiles?
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I don't think you'll see a realistic range for Tamir anywhere. Given its weight and design a range of 20km+ is likely.

Regarding the 'defending a territory of 155km sq' that is in relation to target rockets with a range of 15km. In other words it has the performance to reliably intercept rockets with the performance to reach 15 km range within an area covering 155km sq....that will include the climb to intercept however....
 
MihoshiK said:
cheap SRBM intercepts
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Doubt that Tamir has intercepted anything remotely close to a SRBM-class missile. The sheer size difference. Physically it's impossible. A Tamir is like 3 times slimmer and at least 6-7 times shorter than a DF-15, and I think a Scud is even bigger than that.
On the other hand it holds the world record for the best CRAM accomplishment so theres that.
 
NMaude said:
I wonder if the F-16s going to Ukraine will be able to fire ASRAAMs?
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Asraam is compatible with Sidewinder rails.

But there will be enough Sidewinder and Amraam to go around. I suspect any Asraam will be saved for the ground launchers (technically it could go on the NASAMS as well).
 
Do we know camm and camm er wingspan when they are folded? I guess its around 200mm but it would be nice to know what true number is
 
So this may make it more easy for all to know what i mean. Both lines are close to the same length and on we see that the 190mm diameter mutch shorter than the span of the folded fin (or the point where they fold) is. Thats why when somebody says 9 Iris-T SLM would fit a mk.41 is wrong as they Take the wrong number to calculate the diameter of the missile. IMG_20231227_143808.jpg
 
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