TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

Lacy said:
To catch up, was it confirmed if these two prototypes would have any mission systems integrated? like radar, eots, irst, ku band terminals etc.?
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Well, the prototypes of the Karat IRST, Toygun EOTS, IVDL datalink, MURAD-600A FCR, etc., are all ready and have been confirmed as planned for integration in 2026 for airborne tests aboard Kaan, and the TAI GM has indeed said similar things multiple times in the recent past.

I also remember him saying as recently as a week ago that these prototypes would be integrated with mission systems and have intensive test flight schedules in contrast to the 'empty shell' of the P0/GTU-0.
 
helmutkohl said:
that's a nice shot of what seems to be the side weapons bay.
So to confirm, Kaan has two tandem main weapons bays and two side weapons bays?
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We don't know yet. We've heard conflicting information in the past, and the GTU-0 has featured access hatches in place of IWBs since it was basically just a tech demonstrator/ground test unit that was originally never meant to fly.
 
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Combat-Master said:
Out of the very few 5th gens out there, China's implementation of side weapons bay on J-20 has got to be my favourite - hoping TAI does something similar
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Look at the shape of the side weapon bay. I think the KAAN will shoot the infrared-guided missile like the F-22 instead of the J-20.
1758982540605.png 1758982693585.png
 
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A standing ovation must go to these geniuses who kept insisting there would be no issues with engine supplies from the U.S. despite everyone knowing full well that the Congress would do everything in its power to block them.

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Combat-Master said:
US congress pretty much has the power to impose a lengthy delay to KAANs development.
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In 10 years, once it successfully develops and deploys indigenous engines for its major aircraft, Turkey will no longer have any reason to stay in the good graces of the US; even from a pragmatist view, maintaining neutral relations will suffice. Every serious Turkish foreign policy expert and influential figure understands this.

These corrupt idiots are ruining their country’s future in the Middle East, Eastern Europe and beyond, just for some easy pocket money from the Israeli, Greek, and Armenian lobbies.

---------------------------

This is the most slept-on part:

Minister of Foreign Affairs Hakan Fidan:The CAATSA issue with the US must be resolved. They need to take action for both the F-35 and KAAN engines. The license for KAAN's engine has been suspended. Restrictions with the US will force us to seek alternative avenues within the international system.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1972019042514051554
View: https://x.com/AksanSertac/status/1972019042514051554?t=Y1Yw_zhfGeRIFvoD9bWJ7w&s=19
 
Not too get too off topic, but aren't relations between the US and Turkey good enough at the moment that the nuclear option of permanently stopping delivery of these engines and completely derailing the KAAN program is not a serious threat ?
 
alberchico said:
Not too get too off topic, but aren't relations between the US and Turkey good enough at the moment that the nuclear option of permanently stopping delivery of these engines and completely derailing the KAAN program is not a serious threat ?
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The best option is to be able to get the engines. The second best option is them to reject the engine request outright. And the worst option is the request to sit in the congress for years without any definitive answer.
 
Archibald said:
Oh, crap.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1972169851503509962
View: https://x.com/Defence_Index/status/1972169851503509962
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Not really, everyone knew this would happen.

snne said:
A standing ovation must go to these geniuses who kept insisting there would be no issues with engine supplies from the U.S. despite everyone knowing full well that the Congress would do everything in its power to block them.
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The general consensus among us, based on what has been said following the Trump–Erdogan meeting, is that they have reached a deal on a course of action to be taken by the end of the year (as per the American ambassador). It likely has something to do at the very least with the S-400 issue, and they intend to convince the Congress to approve it. (But we're convinced it will take a whole lot more to get them to pass it.)

Trump also has executive powers that allow him to temporarily pause CAATSA sanctions against Turkey, so if push comes to shove, I believe they will use that authority to enable the delivery of engines for the Block 10 production of the Kaan.

U.S. lawmakers have introduced amendments to the 2026 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that would block F-35 fighter jet deliveries and other arms sales to Türkiye unless Ankara meets specific political and security conditions, including certifications regarding Hamas, Israel, and defense cooperation with U.S. adversaries.

A bipartisan amendment introduced by Republican Rep. Gus Bilirakis and Democrat Rep. Brad Schneider would prohibit F-35 sales to Türkiye unless the White House certifies that Ankara is not "materially supporting Hamas or any of its affiliates."

The proposed legislation would also require certification that Türkiye is not "engaging in military threats to Israel" and is not conducting military cooperation, including drone sales, with Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea.

Another amendment calls for the State, Defense, and Treasury departments to conduct detailed investigations and submit a joint report to Congress examining whether Türkiye is harboring Hamas members or financial assets, or otherwise permitting the group's officials to operate from its territory.

The report, requested within 180 days, would assess security risks to the U.S. and allies, activities of groups including Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran's Revolutionary Guards, terrorism history, threats to U.S. personnel and bases, and Türkiye's responses to these threats.

Additional amendments submitted to the House Armed Services Committee by Representatives Dan Goldman of New York and Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey target Türkiye's military presence in Turkish Cyprus and its regional activities, according to Greek Reporter.

These proposals would require Türkiye to stop alleged violations of Greece and Greek Cyprus, avoid defense cooperation with U.S. rivals like Russia, and ensure U.S.-made weapons are not used in Turkish Cyprus. The restrictions would remain in effect for five years unless these conditions are met.

The amendments also require Türkiye to disclose to the U.S. all American-origin systems used in Turkish Cyprus.
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Redesigning engine bay would be, lengthy. The closest option would be Russian engine, as EU doesnt seem to have anything in class of F-110 family. Variant of AL-31FN, similar as used in early J-10 and J-20 can be used, as those are the closest Russia have for F-110, and its engine accessory box are in bottom instead of top similar as F-110 family.
 
stealthflanker said:
Redesigning engine bay would be, lengthy. The closest option would be Russian engine, as EU doesnt seem to have anything in class of F-110 family. Variant of AL-31FN, similar as used in early J-10 and J-20 can be used, as those are the closest Russia have for F-110, and its engine accessory box are in bottom instead of top similar as F-110 family.
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There’s an ongoing expectation for the core of the indigenous engine to be ignited for the first time next year. TEI has been extremely secretive about it, while also managing expectations by emphasizing how difficult it is to develop an engine in this class, but we’ll see how it goes.

Also, procuring engines from Russia is never an option.

Hypothetically, the Chinese might be at least open to supplying the WS-10B to Turkey, considering they nearly sold the FD-2000 air defense system to Turkey - had Turkey not backed down under American pressure. They’ve also equipped Pakistani J-10Cs with the WS-10B, and while China’s military relationship with Pakistan is far closer than with a NATO member like Turkey, this could still be a distant possibility in our 'what if' scenario.

But the only option, in case the engine sale block continues, is to simply wait it out until the indigenous engine matures enough to be integrated. They might take risks as soon as it reaches the target thrust level and use it while reliability gradually improves, though even their starting point would be incomparably better than where the Chinese had to begin or where the AL-31 is.
 
paralay said:
izd.177
Afterburning thrust of 14,500 kgf, maximum 9,000 kgf, cruising fuel consumption of 0.77 kg/kgf*h
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You read my mind.
Fifth generation engine for fifth generation aircraft.
Volume and weight interchangeable with F110. Declared thrust with afterburner is 142 kN, probably more. Without afterburner comparable or higher than 117S, so - theoretically - Kaan has supercruise capability since the first series.
Technically ideal, but...
...back to earth...
Politically impassable.
 
paralay said:
izd.177
Afterburning thrust of 14,500 kgf, maximum 9,000 kgf, cruising fuel consumption of 0.77 kg/kgf*h
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Are those in series production yet?

Honestly, the biggest problem is the lack of non-US sources for 15ton-thrust engines.

Yes, Russia theoretically makes them, but sanctions and the traditional Russia-Turkey antagonism makes them a non-starter.

China may make them, but then you're tying yourself to China geopolitically. Or may be running into legal cases from Russia, if the core designs are still based off the Russian IP (I'm not clear on that).
 
Scott Kenny said:
Are those in series production yet?

Honestly, the biggest problem is the lack of non-US sources for 15ton-thrust engines.

Yes, Russia theoretically makes them, but sanctions and the traditional Russia-Turkey antagonism makes them a non-starter.

China may make them, but then you're tying yourself to China geopolitically. Or may be running into legal cases from Russia, if the core designs are still based off the Russian IP (I'm not clear on that).
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They are not and never were. WS-15 is clean sheet design and WS-10s were far more influenced by CFM-56 cores basically F101

If WS-10 exports were a problem it would’ve been seen when J-10Cs were sold to Pakistan.
 
Scott Kenny said:
It'd be doable, I think. though you'd need the Kaan to be built around the same accessory layout as the engines used in F-16s.
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Biggest hurdle will probably be political (US cutting off support due to user agreement violation) but if things get very dire I think it is doable as a last resort.
 
siegecrossbow said:
Biggest hurdle will probably be political (US cutting off support due to user agreement violation) but if things get very dire I think it is doable as a last resort.
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I think it could be snuck through under the prototype-and-testing clauses currently in use for Kaan.

Edit: I would assume that those clauses do not specify engine serial numbers, on the grounds that it'd be a testing stop if an engine broke badly enough to require replacement in the airframe. We all know that F110s don't break often, but I'd want to make sure that there were a couple dozen engines allowed for flight testing till the Turkish engines are available.
 
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Scott Kenny said:
but I'd want to make sure that there were a couple dozen engines allowed for flight testing till the Turkish engines are available.
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There are currently 10 engines at TAI for testing (for 5 flightworthy prototypes + 1 ground test unit) , which were approved by the Congress back in 2017.

The new engine license that the Congress has put on hold applies to the initial 20 production aircraft (i.e., the Block 10). Subsequent blocks are planned to use the indigenous engine, including the Indonesian Block 30 ones scheduled for delivery between 2032 and 2035. That said, you never know if there will be delays in the certification process by the time Block 20 airframes are ready and waiting for their engines.

The Block 10 (units with software-blocked IWBs and no RAM coatings) is scheduled for delivery within three years (and built even earlier), so it’s about time this issue is resolved.
 
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So long story short unless Turkey swallows their pride and makes some major concessions that satisfy Congress their flagship KAAN program is facing serious long term problems ? I just can't see them switching to another powerplant at this point, the redesign to accomodate it could delay the program by years and cause further political headaches if they team up with either the Russians or Chinese. I also think the timetable they are giving regarding the development of a domestic alternative is hopelessly optimistic.
 
alberchico said:
So long story short unless Turkey swallows their pride and makes some major concessions that satisfy Congress their flagship KAAN program is facing serious long term problems ? I just can't see them switching to another powerplant at this point, the redesign to accomodate it could delay the program by years and cause further political headaches if they team up with either the Russians or Chinese. I also think the timetable they are giving regarding the development of a domestic alternative is hopelessly optimistic.
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Only the Block 10 birds, however many of those they plan to make.

I suspect that some creative descriptions of the Block 10s might allow you to get 20something airframes as "flight test examples" with engines under the original agreement. See also F-14 original plans, where there were only supposed to be 13-to-69 F-14As, to be upgraded to -Bs once the F401 engines were available. Edit: and the F-14As were supposed to be Full Scale Development aircraft more than front-line fighters.
 
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alberchico said:
So long story short unless Turkey swallows their pride and makes some major concessions that satisfy Congress their flagship KAAN program is facing serious long term problems ? I just can't see them switching to another powerplant at this point, the redesign to accomodate it could delay the program by years and cause further political headaches if they team up with either the Russians or Chinese. I also think the timetable they are giving regarding the development of a domestic alternative is hopelessly optimistic.
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“The serial production of KAAN was planned with domestic engines, not foreign ones. Development activities for the main engine TF35000 and the auxiliary power unit APU60 for the KAAN fighter jet are progressing successfully.

This is how the process always works in the defense industry. It starts with existing engines, and then national engine projects are initiated.We are producing KAAN using a block approach. This means we are gradually developing it by introducing versions with different capabilities at various stages into the inventory.

In this context, there is no delay in the delivery schedule of our KAAN fighter jet. To avoid risking our serial production, we are not relying on a single source; we are working with different supply channels and evaluating alternatives simultaneously. This way, we both secure the timeline and advance our roadmap for developing national engines without interruption.

The future of KAAN is in no way dependent on the engines of a single country. We trust our engineers. The serial production process for TF35000 is proceeding as planned.All necessary engines for the KAAN prototype aircraft have been procured and delivered to Türkiye. The production of our prototype aircraft is continuing at full speed.

The official application process to the United States for the engine supply required for the first block of a certain number of KAAN serial aircraft to be delivered to our Air Force Command has been completed.

The development activities for our domestic engine, which is needed for our KAAN aircraft to achieve sixth-generation advanced capabilities, are continuing according to the planned schedule. At this stage, we are not pursuing any foreign alternative options.

If necessary, it is possible to change the engine for the first block. While this may lead to some engineering development needs, aircraft design and development activities, as is the case worldwide, inherently involve continuous iteration and change management. In such a case, I do not believe we will face a significant scheduling disadvantage. This is because we manage our projects with an Agile Systems Engineering approach. However, as I mentioned, our final serial production aircraft will fly with domestic engines.“There was a delay, but significant progress has been made in 2 years” There was indeed a delay, and this was the first issue I addressed. Now, responsibilities and timelines are clear. All companies involved are fulfilling their duties on time, and the SSB Engine Department is closely monitoring the process. Significant progress has been made over the past 2 years.

Considering that the TF6000 turbofan engine developed for ANKA-III was successfully started for the first time, development work for TF10000 for KIZILELMA is ongoing, and the development activities for the main engine TF35000 and the auxiliary power unit APU60 for the KAAN fighter jet are progressing as planned, it is clear that considerable progress has been made in the engine field, and we can look to the future with confidence.

The 48 fifth-generation KAAN fighter jets planned for export to Indonesia will be powered by our national engines, not US-origin engines.

Finally, I would like to emphasize that we trust our engineers in this sacred cause. With the leadership and support of our President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, we are working with all our strength to bring KAAN and its domestic engine to our country using local and national capabilities.”


- Defense Industry (SSB) President Prof. Dr. Haluk Görgün link
 

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