TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

Great catch! I don't see any visual differences from the P0/GTU-0/Tech Demo from this angle yet, which isn't very surprising unlike what some amateurs might think.

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Lacy said:
if this is the current progress of P1, and P2 is supposed to fly a few months after P1 does, then the P2 must be in final assembly as well?
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Yep..:
snne said:
Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) officials said the two prototypes are in an advanced state of structural assembly and work is underway on system integration in the company’s Kaan final assembly line here in Ankara. A ground test vehicle also is in production....
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snne said:
Great catch! I don't see any visual differences from the P0/GTU-0/Tech Demo from this angle yet, which isn't very surprising unlike what some amateurs might think.

1000050703-jpg.779720
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that's a nice shot of what seems to be the side weapons bay.
So to confirm, Kaan has two tandem main weapons bays and two side weapons bays?
 
To catch up, was it confirmed if these two prototypes would have any mission systems integrated? like radar, eots, irst, ku band terminals etc.?
 
Lacy said:
To catch up, was it confirmed if these two prototypes would have any mission systems integrated? like radar, eots, irst, ku band terminals etc.?
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Well, the prototypes of the Karat IRST, Toygun EOTS, IVDL datalink, MURAD-600A FCR, etc., are all ready and have been confirmed as planned for integration in 2026 for airborne tests aboard Kaan, and the TAI GM has indeed said similar things multiple times in the recent past.

I also remember him saying as recently as a week ago that these prototypes would be integrated with mission systems and have intensive test flight schedules in contrast to the 'empty shell' of the P0/GTU-0.
 
helmutkohl said:
that's a nice shot of what seems to be the side weapons bay.
So to confirm, Kaan has two tandem main weapons bays and two side weapons bays?
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We don't know yet. We've heard conflicting information in the past, and the GTU-0 has featured access hatches in place of IWBs since it was basically just a tech demonstrator/ground test unit that was originally never meant to fly.
 
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Combat-Master said:
Out of the very few 5th gens out there, China's implementation of side weapons bay on J-20 has got to be my favourite - hoping TAI does something similar
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Look at the shape of the side weapon bay. I think the KAAN will shoot the infrared-guided missile like the F-22 instead of the J-20.
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A standing ovation must go to these geniuses who kept insisting there would be no issues with engine supplies from the U.S. despite everyone knowing full well that the Congress would do everything in its power to block them.

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Combat-Master said:
US congress pretty much has the power to impose a lengthy delay to KAANs development.
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In 10 years, once it successfully develops and deploys indigenous engines for its major aircraft, Turkey will no longer have any reason to stay in the good graces of the US; even from a pragmatist view, maintaining neutral relations will suffice. Every serious Turkish foreign policy expert and influential figure understands this.

These corrupt idiots are ruining their country’s future in the Middle East, Eastern Europe and beyond, just for some easy pocket money from the Israeli, Greek, and Armenian lobbies.

---------------------------

This is the most slept-on part:

Minister of Foreign Affairs Hakan Fidan:The CAATSA issue with the US must be resolved. They need to take action for both the F-35 and KAAN engines. The license for KAAN's engine has been suspended. Restrictions with the US will force us to seek alternative avenues within the international system.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1972019042514051554
View: https://x.com/AksanSertac/status/1972019042514051554?t=Y1Yw_zhfGeRIFvoD9bWJ7w&s=19
 
Not too get too off topic, but aren't relations between the US and Turkey good enough at the moment that the nuclear option of permanently stopping delivery of these engines and completely derailing the KAAN program is not a serious threat ?
 
alberchico said:
Not too get too off topic, but aren't relations between the US and Turkey good enough at the moment that the nuclear option of permanently stopping delivery of these engines and completely derailing the KAAN program is not a serious threat ?
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The best option is to be able to get the engines. The second best option is them to reject the engine request outright. And the worst option is the request to sit in the congress for years without any definitive answer.
 
Archibald said:
Oh, crap.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1972169851503509962
View: https://x.com/Defence_Index/status/1972169851503509962
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Not really, everyone knew this would happen.

snne said:
A standing ovation must go to these geniuses who kept insisting there would be no issues with engine supplies from the U.S. despite everyone knowing full well that the Congress would do everything in its power to block them.
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The general consensus among us, based on what has been said following the Trump–Erdogan meeting, is that they have reached a deal on a course of action to be taken by the end of the year (as per the American ambassador). It likely has something to do at the very least with the S-400 issue, and they intend to convince the Congress to approve it. (But we're convinced it will take a whole lot more to get them to pass it.)

Trump also has executive powers that allow him to temporarily pause CAATSA sanctions against Turkey, so if push comes to shove, I believe they will use that authority to enable the delivery of engines for the Block 10 production of the Kaan.

U.S. lawmakers have introduced amendments to the 2026 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that would block F-35 fighter jet deliveries and other arms sales to Türkiye unless Ankara meets specific political and security conditions, including certifications regarding Hamas, Israel, and defense cooperation with U.S. adversaries.

A bipartisan amendment introduced by Republican Rep. Gus Bilirakis and Democrat Rep. Brad Schneider would prohibit F-35 sales to Türkiye unless the White House certifies that Ankara is not "materially supporting Hamas or any of its affiliates."

The proposed legislation would also require certification that Türkiye is not "engaging in military threats to Israel" and is not conducting military cooperation, including drone sales, with Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea.

Another amendment calls for the State, Defense, and Treasury departments to conduct detailed investigations and submit a joint report to Congress examining whether Türkiye is harboring Hamas members or financial assets, or otherwise permitting the group's officials to operate from its territory.

The report, requested within 180 days, would assess security risks to the U.S. and allies, activities of groups including Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran's Revolutionary Guards, terrorism history, threats to U.S. personnel and bases, and Türkiye's responses to these threats.

Additional amendments submitted to the House Armed Services Committee by Representatives Dan Goldman of New York and Josh Gottheimer of New Jersey target Türkiye's military presence in Turkish Cyprus and its regional activities, according to Greek Reporter.

These proposals would require Türkiye to stop alleged violations of Greece and Greek Cyprus, avoid defense cooperation with U.S. rivals like Russia, and ensure U.S.-made weapons are not used in Turkish Cyprus. The restrictions would remain in effect for five years unless these conditions are met.

The amendments also require Türkiye to disclose to the U.S. all American-origin systems used in Turkish Cyprus.
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Redesigning engine bay would be, lengthy. The closest option would be Russian engine, as EU doesnt seem to have anything in class of F-110 family. Variant of AL-31FN, similar as used in early J-10 and J-20 can be used, as those are the closest Russia have for F-110, and its engine accessory box are in bottom instead of top similar as F-110 family.
 
stealthflanker said:
Redesigning engine bay would be, lengthy. The closest option would be Russian engine, as EU doesnt seem to have anything in class of F-110 family. Variant of AL-31FN, similar as used in early J-10 and J-20 can be used, as those are the closest Russia have for F-110, and its engine accessory box are in bottom instead of top similar as F-110 family.
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There’s an ongoing expectation for the core of the indigenous engine to be ignited for the first time next year. TEI has been extremely secretive about it, while also managing expectations by emphasizing how difficult it is to develop an engine in this class, but we’ll see how it goes.

Also, procuring engines from Russia is never an option.

Hypothetically, the Chinese might be at least open to supplying the WS-10B to Turkey, considering they nearly sold the FD-2000 air defense system to Turkey - had Turkey not backed down under American pressure. They’ve also equipped Pakistani J-10Cs with the WS-10B, and while China’s military relationship with Pakistan is far closer than with a NATO member like Turkey, this could still be a distant possibility in our 'what if' scenario.

But the only option, in case the engine sale block continues, is to simply wait it out until the indigenous engine matures enough to be integrated. They might take risks as soon as it reaches the target thrust level and use it while reliability gradually improves, though even their starting point would be incomparably better than where the Chinese had to begin or where the AL-31 is.
 
paralay said:
izd.177
Afterburning thrust of 14,500 kgf, maximum 9,000 kgf, cruising fuel consumption of 0.77 kg/kgf*h
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You read my mind.
Fifth generation engine for fifth generation aircraft.
Volume and weight interchangeable with F110. Declared thrust with afterburner is 142 kN, probably more. Without afterburner comparable or higher than 117S, so - theoretically - Kaan has supercruise capability since the first series.
Technically ideal, but...
...back to earth...
Politically impassable.
 
paralay said:
izd.177
Afterburning thrust of 14,500 kgf, maximum 9,000 kgf, cruising fuel consumption of 0.77 kg/kgf*h
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Are those in series production yet?

Honestly, the biggest problem is the lack of non-US sources for 15ton-thrust engines.

Yes, Russia theoretically makes them, but sanctions and the traditional Russia-Turkey antagonism makes them a non-starter.

China may make them, but then you're tying yourself to China geopolitically. Or may be running into legal cases from Russia, if the core designs are still based off the Russian IP (I'm not clear on that).
 
Scott Kenny said:
Are those in series production yet?

Honestly, the biggest problem is the lack of non-US sources for 15ton-thrust engines.

Yes, Russia theoretically makes them, but sanctions and the traditional Russia-Turkey antagonism makes them a non-starter.

China may make them, but then you're tying yourself to China geopolitically. Or may be running into legal cases from Russia, if the core designs are still based off the Russian IP (I'm not clear on that).
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They are not and never were. WS-15 is clean sheet design and WS-10s were far more influenced by CFM-56 cores basically F101

If WS-10 exports were a problem it would’ve been seen when J-10Cs were sold to Pakistan.
 
Scott Kenny said:
It'd be doable, I think. though you'd need the Kaan to be built around the same accessory layout as the engines used in F-16s.
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Biggest hurdle will probably be political (US cutting off support due to user agreement violation) but if things get very dire I think it is doable as a last resort.
 
siegecrossbow said:
Biggest hurdle will probably be political (US cutting off support due to user agreement violation) but if things get very dire I think it is doable as a last resort.
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I think it could be snuck through under the prototype-and-testing clauses currently in use for Kaan.

Edit: I would assume that those clauses do not specify engine serial numbers, on the grounds that it'd be a testing stop if an engine broke badly enough to require replacement in the airframe. We all know that F110s don't break often, but I'd want to make sure that there were a couple dozen engines allowed for flight testing till the Turkish engines are available.
 
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