TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

snne said:
First delivery target by 2028 gives it 2 years for intensive testing, this is still a bit ambitious for my taste but considering the threat risks involved for the AF, it can't get inducted soon enough...
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Like, it's outright unachievable unless we'll see a dozen aircraft flying early next year, and exactly nothing will go wrong on Turkiye's first fighter aircraft ever. People who declare this delivery target are not faithful to the customer.
2030s is the first likely term, provided that everything goes flawlessly. 2030 may have been a flawless ideal if the first prototype had been an actual prototype, but given its flight rate - it was at best aimed at demonstrating that Turkiye in principle can do it.
 
Ainen said:
Like, it's outright unachievable unless we'll see a dozen aircraft flying early next year, and exactly nothing will go wrong on Turkiye's first fighter aircraft ever. People who declare this delivery target are not faithful to the customer.
2030s is the first likely term, provided that everything goes flawlessly. 2030 may have been a flawless ideal if the first prototype had been an actual prototype, but given its flight rate - it was at best aimed at demonstrating that Turkiye in principle can do it.
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That was a typo, 28 - 25 = 3 :) But yes it's a bit tight.

AFAICR, we'll see two prototyes roll out next year and three the year after; and 3 in 2026-27(?), the last two are for indigenous engines if I'm not mistaken.

Officials keep saying that the pace of the testing is going to be like Hürjet's from the roll out of P1 (the current one is P0 - i.e. tech demo) onwards, which is quite intensive.

As someone who has kept a close watch on this program for a decade, I personally believe the delivery might be delayed by a year at worst but the target is still 28/29; so this is nothing major. And they are set to deliver 20 planes with Block 10 configuration and foreign engines in 2028.
 
Combat-Master said:
KAAN P0 - Side weapon bay visible
View attachment 750922
Central internal weapons bay visible, connection points for external pylons also visible on the wing*
View attachment 750923
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Why are you reviving this topic even though we've reached the consensus that the current (P0) prototype has no weapon bays as it is only a ground-test article made airworthy (essentially a technology demonstrator).

I couldn't find the exact picture that shows how deep the underbody bay is but even from the angle of the second pic that you've attached, it is visibly not that deep as there's a support structure occupying the majority of the space inside.

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Screenshot 2024-12-05 223747.png


(I'm currently on the road so considering the circumstances this is the best I could draw on my laptop)

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Moreover, you can see from the pics above that there are clearly no weapon bay doors, those are just regular maintenance panels on the first prototype.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653812863641825303
View: https://x.com/SavunmaTR/status/1653812863641825303


I think @Radonislav had shared that in here before it got deleted.

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Recently, we've also heard that the second prototype (P1) looks almost nothing like the first (P0, demo) prototype.

I heard a comment that "it was almost a different plane," but its accuracy is not certain.
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https://twitter.com/x/status/1860007055228305700
View: https://x.com/ssysfakb/status/1860007055228305700?t=2EWyfmCFzxqcTj7BytitSA&s=19

We even have confirmation from multiple officials that the weapon integration and testing activities are only going to begin in 2025 with the roll out of P1.
 
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snne said:
Why are you reviving this topic even though we've reached the consensus that the current (P0) prototype has no weapon bays as it is only a ground-test article made airworthy (essentially a technology demonstrator).

I couldn't find the exact picture that shows how deep the underbody bay is but even from the angle of the second pic that you've attached, it is visibly not that deep as there's a support structure occupying the majority of the space inside.

View attachment 751132
1685653895188-png.700696
View attachment 751133
View attachment 751138


(I'm currently on the road so considering the circumstances this is the best I could draw on my laptop)

View attachment 751137


Moreover, you can see from the pics above that there are clearly no weapon bay doors, those are just regular maintenance panels on the first prototype.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1653812863641825303
View: https://x.com/SavunmaTR/status/1653812863641825303


I think @Radonislav had shared that in here before it got deleted.

------

Recently, we've also heard that the second prototype (P1) looks almost nothing like the first (P0, demo) prototype.


https://twitter.com/x/status/1860007055228305700
View: https://x.com/ssysfakb/status/1860007055228305700?t=2EWyfmCFzxqcTj7BytitSA&s=19

We even have confirmation from multiple officials that the weapon integration and testing activities are only going to begin in 2025 with the roll out of P1.
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P0 has empty space that could be suitable to be a weapons bay, however this doesn't mean that it has one. I have seen them, they are just shut with panels.


Also, the difference between P0 and P1 is exeggerated. Of course it has its differences but "looks nothing like" is just what Twitter guys say for clicks and views.

Probably we will see IWB tests in 2026, Anka-3 will conduct IWB tests with Tolun and 82s this year, it was supposed to happen in November but apparently it got delayed
 
Have I misunderstood or will the aircraft not be ready until the end of 2025? And then the maiden flight would take place shortly afterwards.
How do they plan to produce the first series aircraft in 2028/29? 2 years is extremely short, unless they deliver bananaware that only matures with the customer, in this case the Turkish armed forces. Why do they need 8-9 months to build an aircraft?
 
IC3M@N FX said:
Have I misunderstood or will the aircraft not be ready until the end of 2025? And then the maiden flight would take place shortly afterwards.
How do they plan to produce the first series aircraft in 2028/29? 2 years is extremely short, unless they deliver bananaware that only matures with the customer, in this case the Turkish armed forces. Why do they need 8-9 months to build an aircraft?
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There's a difference between prototypes and production tooling when it comes to assembly time. Prototypes are often hand-assembled with minimal major tooling to keep everything flying going. This means that building one is a lot more time-consuming than telling a running assembly line "print me one more".

Edit for word choice.
 
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Scott Kenny said:
There's a difference between prototypes and production tooling when it comes to assembly time. Prototypes are often hand-assembled with minimal major tooling to keep everything flying. This means that building one is a lot more time-consuming than telling a running assembly line "print me one more".
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To add, second prototype is expected to have design changes, also was stated previously few threads back that there were supply chain issues which delayed assembly of the second prototype.

"Speaking at a press conference on the second day of the Farnborough Airshow—and just five weeks into his tenure as CEO of the OEM, following the departure of Temel Kotil in June—Demiroglu said that supply chain issues around titanium as well as castings and forgings were causing “significant manufacturing delays.”"

https://aviationweek-com.webpkgcach...-tackling-supply-chain-issues-kaan-progresses
 
GÖKHAN - National Ramjet Powered Air-Air Missile
1735738358039.png
The "National Ramjet Powered Air-Air Missile (GÖKHAN) Development Project" contract was signed between the Ministry of National Defense and TÜBİTAK SAGE on May 21, 2021.

With this project, it is aimed to develop a nationally developed beyond-line-of-sight ramjet-powered air-to-air missile system that will enable the neutralization of various air elements with a long-range engagement in order to establish air superiority, protect high-value aircraft and enable attack aircraft to contribute to survivability by conducting their own defense.

The Conceptual Design Phase and Preliminary Design Phase of the project have been completed, and the Ground Trials Phase activities are being carried out. During the Ground Tests and Flight Tests phases of the project, subsystem and system verification tests will be conducted, and flight and firing tests will be carried out.

With the ramjet-powered air-to-air missile to be developed in the GÖKHAN project, a strategic air-to-air missile system will be introduced to our country, and Türkiye will be among the NATO member countries capable of producing ramjet-powered air-to-air missiles.

https://www.sage.tubitak.gov.tr/en/air-air-missiles/gokhan/
 
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Combat-Master said:
GÖKHAN - National Ramjet Powered Air-Air Missile
View attachment 754392
The "National Ramjet Powered Air-Air Missile (GÖKHAN) Development Project" contract was signed between the Ministry of National Defense and TÜBİTAK SAGE on May 21, 2021.

With this project, it is aimed to develop a nationally developed beyond-line-of-sight ramjet-powered air-to-air missile system that will enable the neutralization of various air elements with a long-range engagement in order to establish air superiority, protect high-value aircraft and enable attack aircraft to contribute to survivability by conducting their own defense.

The Conceptual Design Phase and Preliminary Design Phase of the project have been completed, and the Ground Trials Phase activities are being carried out. During the Ground Tests and Flight Tests phases of the project, subsystem and system verification tests will be conducted, and flight and firing tests will be carried out.

With the ramjet-powered air-to-air missile to be developed in the GÖKHAN project, a strategic air-to-air missile system will be introduced to our country, and Türkiye will be among the NATO member countries capable of producing ramjet-powered air-to-air missiles.

https://www.sage.tubitak.gov.tr/en/air-air-missiles/gokhan/
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1000008547.jpg
 
Ainen said:
Way longer than AIM-174B and R-27ER. External only, i guess.
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For sure as KAAN would need an IWB with an length of atleast ~5.2m for it. An suboptimal number as its not long enough for 3 SDB (or similiar) or 2 MK.83's.
 
kqcke for you said:
For sure as KAAN would need an IWB with an length of atleast ~5.2m for it. An suboptimal number as its not long enough for 3 SDB (or similiar) or 2 MK.83's.
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That looks impossible.
My personal guess is that ramjet weapons don't really make that much sense for LO fighter iwb use.
 
Combat-Master said:
GÖKHAN - National Ramjet Powered Air-Air Missile
View attachment 754392
The "National Ramjet Powered Air-Air Missile (GÖKHAN) Development Project" contract was signed between the Ministry of National Defense and TÜBİTAK SAGE on May 21, 2021.

With this project, it is aimed to develop a nationally developed beyond-line-of-sight ramjet-powered air-to-air missile system that will enable the neutralization of various air elements with a long-range engagement in order to establish air superiority, protect high-value aircraft and enable attack aircraft to contribute to survivability by conducting their own defense.

The Conceptual Design Phase and Preliminary Design Phase of the project have been completed, and the Ground Trials Phase activities are being carried out. During the Ground Tests and Flight Tests phases of the project, subsystem and system verification tests will be conducted, and flight and firing tests will be carried out.

With the ramjet-powered air-to-air missile to be developed in the GÖKHAN project, a strategic air-to-air missile system will be introduced to our country, and Türkiye will be among the NATO member countries capable of producing ramjet-powered air-to-air missiles.

https://www.sage.tubitak.gov.tr/en/air-air-missiles/gokhan/
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So basically Turkish Meteor AAM.
 
Last we heard about it was back in October:
The first launching tests of the ramjet-propelled long-range air-to-air missile GÖKHAN, which is under development under the Prime Contractorship of TÜBİTAK SAGE, are expected to be carried out in 2025. However, in order to see the real performance of GÖKHAN, the MURAD AESA Nose Radar, which has a long detection range capability, must also be ready. Because the AN/APG-68 series radars on F-16s will be insufficient in terms of performance for a missile like GÖKHAN. GÖKHAN, which is announced to be able to reach speeds close to Mach 5, will feature the ASELSAN product AGRAS-200AA Active RF Seeker Head.
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https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ibrahim-sünnetci-b2951544_tübi̇tak-sage-ana-yükleniciliğinde-geliştirme-activity-7252627678246174720-Pvcl?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_ios


NMaude said:
So basically Turkish Meteor AAM.
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Except that it's got a liquid fuelled engine.

kqcke for you said:
Thats big. 3.6m is the length of most western AAM's in service with 5.1m being an big extension
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Ainen said:
Way longer than AIM-174B and R-27ER. External only, i guess.
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I think the person who estimated that made a mistake there.

Granted, this slide's from 2018-2019, we don't exactly know the form and placement of the IWBs and there have been lots of changes since then; but, I think this slide's a legitimate indicator of their plan...

(internal loads are highlighted with blue and indigenous equivalents of name dropped-foreign examples below are written inside parentheses) This was a presentation to foreign committees so it makes sense that they'd name drop their more famous equivalents instead.

mmu-muhimmat-kapasitesi-jpg.720643



More info on the A2A missiles of Kaan:

snne said:
Their names were mentioned just to give the audience some idea (mind the parenthesis), the bays are designed around Bozdogan(WVR,, AIM-9XBII equivalent), Gökdogan(BVR, AIM-210C7 equivalent) and Gökhan (Liquid fuel ramjet, Meteor equivalent) missiles.

These indigenous missiles are also not just some copies, while they might look alike, they are thicker than their American equivalents as an example and they also happen to have dual pulse capabilities. They are also launched from the same rails and fed information from the same radar, so it makes sense that they would look similar to American missiles.


https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...-test-of-bozdogan-wvr-air-to-air-missile-4490
https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/content/bozdagan-gokdogan-missiles-enter-serial-production-5736

The quoted ranges are open to some speculation though. Army and the Air Force usually give NEZ or (at least near-NEZ ranges) as official figures(this part has been confirmed), and this would be in line with these missiles' and their equivalents' capabilities. But they are never going to publish top secret data though.

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GOKDOGAN-BOZDOGAN.jpg

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Anyway, I hope I managed to clarify some things or at least informed you a little.
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snne said:
It is not the Meteor itself, but Turkey is developing a liquid fuel ramjet BVR missile for Kaan and F-16 Özgür (~indigenous V-level avionics upgrade) with a serial production target by 2028.

I think the current AN/APG-83 of Viper is barely enough for the AIM-120D, so hauling even longer range Meteors would be a waste, imo.

In order to solve this problem, Turkey developed an indigenous GaN radar with slightly more TRMs (~1130) than GaAs APG-83, so I think there might be a considerable capability jump.

But admittedly it's still not the same combo as Typhoon and the Meteor.

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Combat-Master said:
Apparently second prototype; looks like prototype 1 (tech demo) to me
View attachment 755892
https://twitter.com/x/status/1879137731596652575
View: https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1879137731596652575
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I know it's a stupid question, but has the picture been confirmed to be genuine? The angle has been photographed is strange, as if someone had photographed a Video Photo or Videoclip from the Canvas again.

I think the photo as the second prototype is a fake because Erdogan's signature is in the same position as on the first prototype.
 
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IC3M@N FX said:
I know it's a stupid question, but has the picture been confirmed to be genuine? The angle has been photographed is strange, as if someone had photographed a Video Photo or Videoclip from the Canvas again.

I think the photo as the second prototype is a fake because Erdogan's signature is in the same position as on the first prototype.
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Yeah, makes no sense to me either, especially when second prototype was still in early assembly process not so long ago, and probably still is.

December'2024
1736860804414.png

Supposedly, this source is suppose to be good too lol..
 
Combat-Master said:
Apparently second prototype; looks like prototype 1 (tech demo) to me
View attachment 755892
https://twitter.com/x/status/1879137731596652575
View: https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1879137731596652575
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Second Kaan Prototype it is then, as the minister states in the video saying "this is the second Kaan, you (people at press event) are the first to see it"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1879137810776756319
View: https://x.com/gdhdefence/status/1879137810776756319
 
That is absolutely the first prototype. They probably showed the wrong image at the press briefing. Hate me all you want, but I firmly believe these so-called "reporters" are just too afraid to tell the truth. "The all mighty Head of SSB has spoken! Who are we to doubt his judgment!"

Edit: Check these pictures from Milliyet Newspaper, published on December 8, 2024. This is %100 the GTU-0/P0

https://www.milliyet.com.tr/yazarlar/ozay-sendir/sihirli-cumle-suru-gorevi-7253264
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I actually hope they lowered the cabin a little bit, like in the red highlighted area and it’s not just a different perspective on the first prototype.
That would be a step forward to make the fighter more eye pleasing (Less Angry-Bird vibe)
 
"Kaan's new brochure shows new dimensions of aircraft. According to brochure, the length has shortened by 0.7m, the wingspan by 0.6m and the height by 1m."
https://twitter.com/x/status/1879202535472566766
View: https://x.com/T_Nblty/status/1879202535472566766

------------
DIMENSIONS / WEIGHT
Wing Span 13.4 m
Wing Area 71.6 m2
Length 20.3 m
Height 5 m (20 ft)
Maximum Take Off Weight 60,000 lb
Engine Thrust Class 2 x 29,000 lb
Maximum Speed 1.8 Mach (at 40,000 ft)
Service Ceiling 55,000 ft
Positive / Negative G Limit +9g / -3.5g

FEATURES
Multirole (Air-to-Air & Air-to-Ground)
Super Cruise Capability
High Maneuverability
Low Observability with Weapon Bays
Extended Combat Radius
Interoperable with Current & Future Assets
High Situational Awareness
Optimized Pilot Work Load
with Decision Support Capability
Within & Beyond Visual Range Missiles Employment
Precision Strike

New Generation Avionics
• Integrated Radio Frequency System
• Integrated Electro Optical System
• Integrated Communication Navigation Identifi cation System
• Integrated Modular Avionics
• Large Area Display
• Helmet Mounted Display
 

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