T-X Trainer - Boeing T-7A Red Hawk

Deino said:
Grey Havoc said:
www.flightglobal.com

US Air Force looks to rent T-X contest losers to prepare for Boeing T-7A

The US Air Force is looking to rent four to eight jet trainers to perfect its training regime and further refine capabilities needed on the winner of the T-X trainer contest, the Boeing T-7A Red Hawk.
www.flightglobal.com www.flightglobal.com
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What a strange idea... you order the losing contender to refine the winning one?!
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Kinda makes sense, though, since these aircraft are currently available in small numbers (I doubt either order is new production). So they rent a small number to validate their training curriculum in parallel with development of the T-7 aircraft and associated simulators. This is faster than waiting for the ultimate aircraft to be available in sufficient numbers for curriculum development.
 
So what will happen to the loosing contenders once Boeing gets the T-7 production ramped up to at least normal? This is a bit crazy for the USAF to go down this route.
 
FighterJock said:
So what will happen to the loosing contenders once Boeing gets the T-7 production ramped up to at least normal? This is a bit crazy for the USAF to go down this route.
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They get returned to the manufacturers. This is just a lease of a dozen aircraft or so, all told.
 
hm yeah they should have went with the TA-50 in the end, they wouldn't have this problem.

but I guess they were worried about giving Lockheed everything
 
Redhawk mock-up at the Boeing pavillion at the Paris Airshow last year. Looks quite snazzy under the lights.
 

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helmutkohl said:
hm yeah they should have went with the TA-50 in the end, they wouldn't have this problem.

but I guess they were worried about giving Lockheed everything
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Little to do with "giving Lockheed everything," and an early run of 4-8 aircraft wasn't included in the requirements. Notably, T-X required US production and this small lease of some test airframes is going to be of aircraft produced in Korea (assuming T-50 survives the lawsuit). Lockheed may have gotten US production of their existing aircraft up faster than Boeing will get the Red Tail out, but not so much more so that USAF thought it was decisive or that it outweighed the Boeing-Saab's other advantages.
 
FMV Procures New Training Aircraft for the Swedish Armed Forces
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(Source: Swedish Defence Matériel Agency, FMV; issued May 04, 2020)
(Unofficial translation by Defense-Aerospace.com)

The [Swedish] Air Force's current training aircraft, the Saab SK 60, has many years of service, but now the government has given FMV an authorization to procure a complete flight training system for the first phase of the pilot training. This includes aircraft, simulators, safety equipment and maintenance.

Before the Swedish Armed Forces pilots flew Gripen, they had spent many hours side by side with an instructor in an SK 60, or Saab 105 as the plane is named in its civilian version. The twin-engined training airplane has been the basis of all flight training for pilots since the 1960s, now FMV is working to procure a new school airplane with associated equipment.

The Air Force is in great need of a new school airplane as well as all associated systems for training future pilots. The existing school aircraft, SK60, flew for the first time in 1963. Since then, much has happened in the aviation industry and in the Air Force, both in terms of technology but also how it is intended that future pilots should be trained.

“The procurement that FMV is now carrying out and which the government has authorized is a complete so-called Basic Trainer Aircraft system for the first phase of the training,” says Andreas Säf Pernselius, FMV project manager.

The goal is for the education system to be ready at Malmen in Linköping for the first batch of pilot students in the summer of 2023. And before that, flight instructors should be able to fly into the system.

“It is a very tight timeline but the Air Force's clear requirement is that the system should be based on existing products and that there should be no Swedish special solutions. The supplier will also be responsible for maintenance for the first three years with an option for another two years. The idea then is to postpone the competitive maintenance contract,” says Malin Olofsson, strategic buyer.

It is a team effort to develop the documentation required for a competitive procurement of this kind. It is important that the bidders receive a good basis for their tenders, which also facilitates when we evaluate the tenders. This is stated by strategic buyer Malin Olofsson and project manager Andreas Säf Pernselius.

Quick handling

FMV has conducted feasibility studies at different times and with different intensity, conducted a market study via a so-called RFI and developed a basis for the procurement of a complete education system. Due to various reasons, the procurement has on several occasions been postponed in the future. When FMV received information that the government was close to deciding on the issue, a project team was quickly put together.

“We gathered staff from different areas of expertise within FMV. The team worked on compiling the procurement documentation such as the technical specification, the specification for the undertaking and the request documentation,” says Malin Olofsson.

The challenges during the completion of the tender documentation for the procurement have been to gather all stakeholders affected by the school aviation system, including several departments and competencies within FMV. The project also works closely with the Air Force's representatives.

“Creating such a comprehensive foundation as we have now done is not possible without all the stakeholders from the beginning and that everyone has an open mind to the task and can handle rapid changes, it is best done together as a team,” says Andreas Säf Pernselius .

Facts
The parts that will be included in the contract and the contract are:
-- aircraft
-- flight safety equipment (helmets, mask, lifejacket, parachute, etc.)
-- simulators
-- Part Task Trainer (simpler PC type simulators)
-- CBT (Computer Based Training)
-- TLS (Through Life Support), engineering support for the product's life
-- aircraft maintenance (operational aircraft on the line and heavy maintenance)
-- maintenance of simulators

The tender documentation will be available on the eAvrop website until 31 July 2020.

FMV then starts evaluating the tenders that have been received.

-ends-
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I would imagine the the Boeing/Saab T-7 Red Hawk would be the lead candidate for this though I wonder if the target date will preclude it.
 
So they really need a supersonic trainer though? Gripen is their only supersonic platform and they have conversion trainers for it. I envision a version of the T-7A with a non-afterburning F404 being up their alley to reduce costs but maybe even with a wider span/chord wing to keep wing loading low for trainees new to jet flight. That would give it improved carrying ability in armed training and secondary combat roles as well.
 
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I doubt it. It says "basic trainer". Not lead-in or advanced trainer. Just want something new and cheap with modern glass cockpits, I suspect. Least that's how that article reads to me.

Have to think it's a turboprop like Super Tucano, Texan, PC-21, etc. Maybe outside chance of a Hawks, M-346, or something similar if it comes cheaply enough.
 
GTX said:
I would imagine the the Boeing/Saab T-7 Red Hawk would be the lead candidate for this though I wonder if the target date will preclude it.
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This isn't for a jet trainer at all, but rather a prop trainer for basic training. The plan appears to be to retire the Sk60s and use a combination of prop planes as basic trainers and older Gripens as advanced trainers. A few years down the road, the T-7 might be an option to replace the Gripens as they age out.

theaviationgeekclub.com

Swedish Air Force to use Gripen C/D fighter jets as advanced trainer aircraft - The Aviation Geek Club

Swedish Air Force to use Gripen C/D fighter jets as advanced trainer aircraft
theaviationgeekclub.com theaviationgeekclub.com
 
My understanding is they've been wanting to buy PC-21s for awhile. I wonder if they're thinking if they buy PC-21s, Switzerland will buy Gripens?
 
Sundog said:
My understanding is they've been wanting to buy PC-21s for awhile. I wonder if they're thinking if they buy PC-21s, Switzerland will buy Gripens?
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Maybe that was planned. But that ship has sailed as Switzerland will not buy Gripen.

I think for only a basic trainer the PC-21 is overkill anyway. Something like a PC-9 / T-6 comes to mind. With advanced training on Gripen D for now, possibly on T-7 later.
 
Will depend on the bidding consortia but the T-6II, PC-21 and Super Tucano are likely to make an appearance.
My hunch is the PC-21 might pip the post, jumping into a Gripen from a Texan or Tucano would be a stretch - not impossible, but it is a leap, the PC-21 closes that gap more.
 
Regarding the next generation trainer for the SwAF, I don't understand why you would buy a 21 to replace the Sk60 when you can fly a 345 for next to the same price (sustainement included - 15000 hr guys!!! ).


On the long term, It would be like trading your Saab Aero for a used VW Beetle...

The T-7 is an advanced trainer that might have better alpha output than a Gripen. But even so, it could open Sweden to challenging dissimilar aircraft training like aggressors.
 
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TomcatViP said:
Regarding the next generation trainer for the SwAF, I don't understand why you would buy a 21 to replace the Sk60 when you can fly a 345 for next to the same price (sustainement included - 15000 hr guys!!! )

On the long term, It would be like trading your Saab Aero for a used VW Beetle...

The T-7 is an advanced trainer that might have better alpha output than a Gripen. But even so, it could open Sweden to challenging dissimilar aircraft training like aggressors.
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Because the T-7 is not a basic trainer, you can't just take a student out of a piston elementry trainer and throw him into a high-end advanced trainer like the T-7. Operating costs has little to do with it in this case.

Why would Sweden buy T-7s over Gripens for operational conversion training and agressor training? Gripens mean Swedish jobs at SAAB are protected and lowers Gripen production costs, the T-7 doesnt do either.

Really the Sk60s should have been replaced some time ago, its replacement has been a drawn out saga.
 
Are there plans for USAF to build a light attack variant of the T-7? The T50 and M346 have variants dedicated to light attack.
 
@Lc89 : no there isn't (as confirmed by program's officials)

@Hood : yes, that is my opinion also. I merged two different ideas under the same post: early-on I discuss how an Aermarchi 345 could be better suited (costs Vs in-service performances) and then why T-7 could be overrated as a Sk60 replacement.

Regarding Swedish worker's jobs, a fix percentage of airframe value* is designed to be built by Saab... Given the size of the contract in number, this ensure a smooth decade of work to them...


*Forgot the value but exact nbr should be up in this thread.
 
I think there was a proposal back then but it didn't go anywhere at the time.
 
Here's a much more detailed article about what this might entail.

www.airforcemag.com

ACC Aims to Cut Pilot Training Time By Up to Half | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Air Force is overhauling fighter pilot training, according to a new concept of operations.
www.airforcemag.com www.airforcemag.com

Basically, it seems to be a major revamp of the fighter training pipeline to put a lot more of the tactical skills training earlier in the curriculum and offload it from actual combat aircraft. The end state is to lean on virtual sensors built into the aircraft and the training environment, which might result in a new T-7 version optimized for tactical training. In the interim, they want a few trainers with real sensors (radars, mainly) to test out the new curriculum. Hence the effort initially to sole-source the lease of a dozen or so TA-50s. But some other vendors pushed for a chance to bid so they may need a quick competition. The goal is to have aircraft flying next year, though, so the offers need to be very nearly off the shelf. Which probably rules out most of the other candidates, since they don't have radars at this time.
 
somewhat related

Korea orders TA-50 block 2
not sure hwats the difference between block 1 and 2 but here u go

South Korea orders 20 TA-50 Block 2 training/light attack aircraft

South Korea’s Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) has awarded a KRW688.3 billion (USD572.8 million) contract to Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) for the...
www.janes.com www.janes.com
 
People are reading too much into the TA-50 Block 2 announcement. If you read on KAI's own website it is pretty obvious that Block 2 simply refers to the the second mass-production deal:

www.koreaaero.com

KAI KOREA AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES, LTD.

KAI, Korea Aerospace Industries, Commercial Aircraft, Commercial Helicopter, Military Aircraft, Military Helicopter, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Defence and Space, Aircraft Company, Aerostructure, Satellite, Space Launch Vehicle, MRO, Training System, KF21, KF-21, T-50, FA-50, KT-1, KC-100, LAH...
www.koreaaero.com www.koreaaero.com
 
GTX said:
People are reading too much into the TA-50 Block 2 announcement. If you read on KAI's own website it is pretty obvious that Block 2 simply refers to the the second mass-production deal:

www.koreaaero.com

KAI KOREA AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES, LTD.

KAI, Korea Aerospace Industries, Commercial Aircraft, Commercial Helicopter, Military Aircraft, Military Helicopter, Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, Defence and Space, Aircraft Company, Aerostructure, Satellite, Space Launch Vehicle, MRO, Training System, KF21, KF-21, T-50, FA-50, KT-1, KC-100, LAH...
www.koreaaero.com www.koreaaero.com
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Yes. As you get closer to the Korean original press release, references to TA-50 Block 1 disappear and the announcement just says that TA-50 is an upgraded version of the T-50 trainer.

KAI eyes $580 mn TA-50 trainer jet order from Korean air force - Pulse by Maeil Business News Korea

South Korea’s sole military aircraft manufacturer Korea Aerospace Industries Ltd. (KAI) is expected to supply 20 units of TA-50 trainer jets to the South Korean Air Force for estimated 700 billion won ($579.8 million), an
pulsenews.co.kr
 
Exactly. I think people have missed the subtle element of the story: ... TA-50 aircraft, an advanced T-50 trainer variant...

Add in the Block 2 part and people jump to conclusions, however the reality is far simpler: They are comparing the TA-50 version to the T-50 and yes, the TA-50 is a more advanced version but it has also been around for a while plus they are also talking about Block 2 being the second mass production deal.
 
It simply just means the second production run. However, the second production one is distinct from the first in that the dedicated assembly line for the TA-50 was converted to the FA-50 a long time ago, thus this TA-50 is practically just the FA-50 with link-16 removed.
 
Mach42 said:
It simply just means the second production run. However, the second production one is distinct from the first in that the dedicated assembly line for the TA-50 was converted to the FA-50 a long time ago, thus this TA-50 is practically just the FA-50 with link-16 removed.
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how simple is it to convert a TA-50 to an FA-50?
so far I think Philippines is the only customer of the FA version
all other exports (Iraq, Indonesia, etc) use just the trainer version
I think S.Korea uses all 3?
 
helmutkohl said:
Mach42 said:
It simply just means the second production run. However, the second production one is distinct from the first in that the dedicated assembly line for the TA-50 was converted to the FA-50 a long time ago, thus this TA-50 is practically just the FA-50 with link-16 removed.
Click to expand...
how simple is it to convert a TA-50 to an FA-50?
so far I think Philippines is the only customer of the FA version
all other exports (Iraq, Indonesia, etc) use just the trainer version
I think S.Korea uses all 3?
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This should probably be moved to a different thread but here is the short version: Main difference is in the vertical stabilizer. 'Original' TA-50 has a clipped vert. stab. identical to the T-50. While the FA-50 has a (very F-16 like) vert. stab. with a (housing for the) antenna for the rwr on top. So if you check the T-50i, T-50IQ, T-50A they are all actually 'FA-50's in a way. So I would say it is difficult to convert the 'original' TA-50s but for most of the exported T-50 family flying currently, its simply a matter of adding the missing avionics/systems.
 
While I'm sure some of those countries may buy it, there are some that definitely won't. For instance, I definitely don't see France or anyone within the EU buying it. They'll want their own solution for their on manufacturers. I can't say I blame them, we want the same thing here. I don't see Brazil buying them because because they're now building their own Gripens. I could see the navy using them to replace F-5s in the aggressor role, especially if they buy some as T-45 replacements for the advanced training role. They still have their maintenance set up to handle F404s for the Marine's F-18s, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to get them integrated into service.

It seems to me like this program is moving slow, for how fast we got the prototypes.
 
France has not wanted a supersonic trainer since the Jaguar fiasco :p

More generally, still no replacement in view for the Alphajets - or maybe I just can't remember.

EDIT: France decided to go the opposite way. PC-21s everywhere, except for the ETO and Patrouille de France.
www.opex360.com

La Patrouille de France pourrait garder ses Alphajet jusqu'en 2035 - Zone Militaire

Et dire qu'au début des années 1990, on trouvait que les Fouga CM-170 Magister de la Division des Vols 05/312 de l'École de l'Air étaient de vieux
www.opex360.com www.opex360.com
 

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