System 9-A-7660 Kinzhal - 9-S-7760 missile (Article 292) / AS-24 KILLJOY


What on Earth were the owners of that house doing holding an unexploded AS-24 warhead?
 
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> It is presumed that EW caused the hypersonic missile to fall without detonation.

How is electronic warfare supposed to interfere with the internal arming and detonation mechanism? Does Ukraine suddenly field high powered microwave weapons gifted to them from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

The reasonable explanation is simply technical failure of the warhead, if that's an actual Kinzhal warhead to begin with.
 
EmoBirb said:
> It is presumed that EW caused the hypersonic missile to fall without detonation.

How is electronic warfare supposed to interfere with the internal arming and detonation mechanism? Does Ukraine suddenly field high powered microwave weapons gifted to them from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

The reasonable explanation is simply technical failure of the warhead, if that's an actual Kinzhal warhead to begin with.
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Doesn't seem to have landed in the correct place either though.
 
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What I am trying to personally figure out is if a user is

A) Is he just rage-baiting other users (worked on me twice) to farm some kind of engagement?

B) is incredibly gullible to whatever any other random user says on the internet, like the twitter user he is referencing was using the term, "putler" in his tweet which questions if the person he is using as his source is of age to be allowed to even use the internet. If he does come to this thread, then I suggest he starts quoting Kyiv independent articles or well-known pro-Ukraine YouTube users making their coverages instead of random users which could be just kids using twitter.
 
EmoBirb said:
> It is presumed that EW caused the hypersonic missile to fall without detonation.

How is electronic warfare supposed to interfere with the internal arming and detonation mechanism? Does Ukraine suddenly field high powered microwave weapons gifted to them from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

The reasonable explanation is simply technical failure of the warhead, if that's an actual Kinzhal warhead to begin with.
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https://www.trenchart.us/p/desperate-to-defeat-russian-missiles
The Ukrainians found out the Kinzhal uses a Soviet-era datalink to receive satellite guidance in the terminal phase, so they developed a system called 'Lima' to spoof it. One of the methods (and the namesake of the system) is making the missile think it's actually in Lima, Peru, making the missile try to rapidly turn around, which is not a good idea if you are flying at Mach 6. The missile falls apart from the violent manuevers and crashes.
 
Elysium said:
https://www.trenchart.us/p/desperate-to-defeat-russian-missiles
The Ukrainians found out the Kinzhal uses a Soviet-era datalink to receive satellite guidance in the terminal phase, so they developed a system called 'Lima' to spoof it. One of the methods (and the namesake of the system) is making the missile think it's actually in Lima, Peru, making the missile try to rapidly turn around, which is not a good idea if you are flying at Mach 6. The missile falls apart from the violent manuevers and crashes.
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Issue with that story is that the missiles, just like it's TEL based cousin, has multiple modes of guidance to provide redundancy, including INS which you cannot reasonably jam. Which means that the missiles, as soon as other modes of guidance become unviable, defaults back to the other guidance systems. We're talking about a weapon which can also hold a tactical nuclear warhead after all.

More so, there have been no indications of Iskander-M being affected by some kind of jamming, which is suspected to be closely related to the Kinzhal. As the missiles launched by the Iskander-M system seem to still remain one of the most effective precision strike weapons with very little reliable countermeasures being present.

Then there's the issue of rapidly adapting systems. For example Geranium and UMPK equipped FABs were very successful and precise, then Ukraine figured out a way to jam them, Russians adapted, jamming was now less effective again, Ukrainians adapted and jammed the reworked guidance, Russians tinkered with the guidance again. To a point where you have multimode guidance in the glide bombs and long range drones to provide back up to the back up to the back up in case the frequency from which it gets reliable guidance data is being jammed. And again, Kinzhal is also a tactical nuclear weapon with the associated warhead equipped, so even if it wouldn't have redundancy already built into it, which it has, it would have by now.

Quite frankly, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. And in this case that's simply an accidental or deliberate misidentification of the weapon. Something I rather early alluded to as this pattern of damage is more in line with Russian bombs, which are known to be affected by jamming, rather than the ballistic missiles which cause a different kind of damage and are quite frankly extremely hard to jam. And the tolerances in INS that may be amplified by travel distance are not as extreme as the claim above.

Lastly, the wording chosen by the linked Twitter account should make it clear how credible it is (which is not very credible at all) and as such anything presented as "information" should be treated very carefully and sceptical.
 
Null said:
What I am trying to personally figure out is if a user is

A) Is he just rage-baiting other users (worked on me twice) to farm some kind of engagement?

B) is incredibly gullible to whatever any other random user says on the internet, like the twitter user he is referencing was using the term, "putler" in his tweet which questions if the person he is using as his source is of age to be allowed to even use the internet. If he does come to this thread, then I suggest he starts quoting Kyiv independent articles or well-known pro-Ukraine YouTube users making their coverages instead of random users which could be just kids using twitter.
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I don't want to make grand accusations, but yes the source is non-credible.
 
EmoBirb said:
Issue with that story is that the missiles, just like it's TEL based cousin, has multiple modes of guidance to provide redundancy, including INS which you cannot reasonably jam. Which means that the missiles, as soon as other modes of guidance become unviable, defaults back to the other guidance systems. We're talking about a weapon which can also hold a tactical nuclear warhead after all.

More so, there have been no indications of Iskander-M being affected by some kind of jamming, which is suspected to be closely related to the Kinzhal. As the missiles launched by the Iskander-M system seem to still remain one of the most effective precision strike weapons with very little reliable countermeasures being present.

Then there's the issue of rapidly adapting systems. For example Geranium and UMPK equipped FABs were very successful and precise, then Ukraine figured out a way to jam them, Russians adapted, jamming was now less effective again, Ukrainians adapted and jammed the reworked guidance, Russians tinkered with the guidance again. To a point where you have multimode guidance in the glide bombs and long range drones to provide back up to the back up to the back up in case the frequency from which it gets reliable guidance data is being jammed. And again, Kinzhal is also a tactical nuclear weapon with the associated warhead equipped, so even if it wouldn't have redundancy already built into it, which it has, it would have by now.

Quite frankly, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. And in this case that's simply an accidental or deliberate misidentification of the weapon. Something I rather early alluded to as this pattern of damage is more in line with Russian bombs, which are known to be affected by jamming, rather than the ballistic missiles which cause a different kind of damage and are quite frankly extremely hard to jam. And the tolerances in INS that may be amplified by travel distance are not as extreme as the claim above.

Lastly, the wording chosen by the linked Twitter account should make it clear how credible it is (which is not very credible at all) and as such anything presented as "information" should be treated very carefully and sceptical.
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I don't think there's a single set of receivers/datalinks for any one of these systems - if you read some articles on the blog (and probably there are much better ones out there), there's a constant cat and mouse game with Ukrainians jamming/spoofing these guidance systems, and the Russians find out a way to counter the jamming, with each subsequent iteration getting its hardware tweaked.
As for inertial navigation - it's a very precarious thing - it measures acceleration and derives speed mathematically, which is subject to second-order error, as a tiny error in measuring acceleration accumulates in measuring speed, and the accumulated error gets added to the error bounds of the position - this is a thing about all INS, that's why the best systems are not super accurate.
I frankly don't think it's possible to make a missile that flies at Mach 6 for 1000km and then is supposed to hit within a 10m radius of a target using INS alone.
 
It was 18 March 2022 and first ever combat use of the air-launched quasi-ballistic missile 9-S-7760 as part of the 9-A-7660 missile complex.

That first ever, premier attack showed what is so called Kinzhal or Dagger capable to do. Located near the village of Delyatin in the Ivano-Frankovsk region,Western part of Ukraine ,so called ''Object 711'' or Ivano-Frankovsk-16 was one of the USSR's four central nuclear weapons storage base.It is situated in the Carpathian mountains at a depth of several tens of meters and some sources mentioned that the main bunker was even 150m under the surface.This underground facility continues to be used by the Ukr. military as a heavily fortified ammo depot after the transfer of nuclear warheads and bombs to Russia during 1993.

The anti-nuclear protection of the underground structure does not allow destroying the object with conventional weapons but the power of the Dagger, precisely its kinetic energy ( maybe several GJ ?) and precise hit maybe damaged or even destroyed this underground bunker. Who knows,something that drops from the sky ( maybe even through troposphere) with the speed 1-2 km/s under the angle of 90° or close is really capable of penetrating so deep.

^

''The missile was reportedly intercepted by the Ukrainian strategic-level electronic warfare system "Lima" According to Cascade Systems, a Ukrainian defence company which developed the EW system, "Lima" has been responsible for the downing of at least 26 Kinzhal missiles since the beginning of 2026.''

What can one EW system do to something that flies so fast ( Mach 10 after acceleration phase) and is enveloped in a layer of ionised gas,so called ''plasma effect''?

Yes for sure and from the beginning of the war they shot down several hundreds of them of course.Just like Yu AF ADF shot down several tens/hundreds of NATO aircraft and missiles during NATO-FRY 1999 war. Propaganda, nothing else.
 
Scott Kenny said:
It tells the onboard GPS that it is in Lima, Peru, causing the autopilot to order a turn sharper than the missile can survive at those speeds.
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...... to believe such a seemingly outlandish claim I sadly need actual proof. the claim is far too unlikely to happen(not saying it couldn't happen) for anyone to believe without the russians themselves tatling or the ukranians showing proof(both near impossible tasks since it would be exceptionally hard to get proof of such a incident on video even if it did happen).
 
Feast your eyes on this. It is from 2014, it is about risks and threats to civilian use of GPS.
https://rntfnd.org/wp-content/uploads/Exelis-GPS-Vulnerability-Assessment-February2014.pdfExecutive summary:
The Global Positioning System (GPS) has become a ubiquitous “utility” supporting critical infrastructure depended on by many across all industries. Originally developed for providing precision navigation and timing to the United States Military, society has rapidly developed a strong reliance on GPS information in many facets of life including transportation, communications, and financial transactions.

GPS has become an indispensable source of information with significant economic benefits, making it increasingly important that GPS data be available and reliable. In fact, GPS boosts productivity in many sectors including law enforcement, civil safety response, farming, mining, surveying, and package delivery. It is estimated more than 3.3 million jobs rely heavily on GPS in the United States, generating approximately $122.4 billion in annual economic benefits.

This paper focuses on GPS and its susceptibility to service outages due to both intentional and unintentional jamming. Jamming is the act of interfering with a system’s capacity to lock onto the GPS signal, eliminating a user’s ability to receive the necessary information.

Future satellite designs are being prepared to improve the transmission capability and security of GPS data. However, addressing GPS information outages needs to occur now as the availability and usage of low-cost GPS jamming devices has resulted in a growing threat of GPS signal disruption and increasing the likelihood of future outages to systems that rely on GPS data. Addressing the security of GPS signals and preventing denial of services should be a priority
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The Risk and Threat:
Brandon Wales, Director of Homeland Infrastructure Threat and Risk Analysis Center for the Department of Homeland Security, warned in late 2011, “U.S. critical infrastructure sectors are increasingly at risk from a growing dependency on GPS for positioning, navigation, and timing services.” He stated that GPS reliance in many critical systems is either not fully understood or is often taken for granted and describes GPS as a “largely invisible utility.”
Power distribution networks, banking and financial trading systems, broadcasting and industrial-control networks all use GPS timing, making them equally vulnerable to unintentional or deliberate interference.

In a March 2011 Royal Academy of Engineering (RAE) report, the author, Dr. Martyn Thomas, stated, “the financial markets, for instance, rely on a globally synchronized time-stamping mechanism to ensure fair trading. Trading systems might be detecting very small differences in prices between commodities on different exchanges and buying in high volume on one and selling on the other.
Since lots of people are in competition trading on different continents, for these activities to work you need to know whose order is getting in first.” A report issued by NDP Consulting Group in June 2011 noted that the direct economic costs of full GPS disruption to commercial GPS users and GPS manufacturers are estimated to be $96 billion per year in the United States or the equivalent of 0.7 percent of the U.S. economy.

Jammers
There are people who want to interfere with GPS signals because they are engaged in smuggling, theft, or simply trying to escape tracking of their daily movements. They are turning to devices that use radio frequency transmitters to intentionally block, jam, or interfere with lawful communications.
GPS signals come from satellites 13,000 miles away with signal strength of about 1.5 dB (home television signals usually range from 25 to 46 dB). A small jammer (Figure 2) can disrupt the GPS signal for a mile or more.
The fact that GPS signal strength is weak is not a design flaw. These radio signals are complex and contain multiple components, including time, ephemeris data, and information about the health of the satellite. To constantly produce and broadcast these signals from solar powered satellites requires a design balancing act between allocating energy, equipment and other resources. This was acknowledged by Colonel Bernard Gruber – former Commander of the GPS Directorate, Space and Missile Systems Center, Air Force Space Command, Los Angeles Air Force Base – in an interview from the July 13, 2013 edition of Inside GNSS, “by design, GNSS signals are weak and vulnerable to intentional and unintentional interference.”
An example of unintentional jamming was noted in the July 27, 2013, edition of The Economist – for nearly ten minutes each day, near the London Stock Exchange, someone was blocking GPS signals.
Navigation systems in cars stopped working and time stamps on financial trades were affected. It was determined that the offender was a delivery driver hiding from his management.
GPS jammers are being used by criminals to hide the fact they are driving stolen cars or by commercial drivers to conceal they are driving for dangerously long hours.
It has been reported that a 500 meter shield is created around a vehicle that uses a simple jamming device plugged into a cigarette lighter. Within that shielded area, other GPS devices are left inoperable. For example, navigation technology is unintentionally disrupted when an exhausted taxi cab driver wants to take a break and plugs in a GPS jammer to avoid detection.
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Imagine to which lengths the military will go to mess with GPS-using missiles to find their targets.
 
lmaoxd said:
...... to believe such a seemingly outlandish claim I sadly need actual proof. the claim is far too unlikely to happen(not saying it couldn't happen) for anyone to believe without the russians themselves tatling or the ukranians showing proof(both near impossible tasks since it would be exceptionally hard to get proof of such a incident on video even if it did happen).
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My dude, the RQ-170 got GPS-spoofed into landing in Iran.
 
Scott Kenny said:
It tells the onboard GPS that it is in Lima, Peru, causing the autopilot to order a turn sharper than the missile can survive at those speeds.
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Regardless of whether the system works and whether it's the culprit in this incident, the idea that we'd be told its operating principle is obviously absurd. That'd be like the US Navy bragging to the public about its radio proximity fuzes in 1944. The "Lima, Peru" thing is probably a just-so story.
 
French Toast said:
Regardless of whether the system works and whether it's the culprit in this incident, the idea that we'd be told its operating principle is obviously absurd. That'd be like the US Navy bragging to the public about its radio proximity fuzes in 1944. The "Lima, Peru" thing is probably a just-so story.
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Not sure that admitting it is a GPS(etc)-spoofing system is particularly critical.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Not sure that admitting it is a GPS(etc)-spoofing system is particularly critical.
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"It spoofs the GPS" and "it tells the GPS it's in Lima, Peru" are pretty different claims. The latter is very specific and probably trivial to fix in software.
 
Scott Kenny said:
It tells the onboard GPS that it is in Lima, Peru, causing the autopilot to order a turn sharper than the missile can survive at those speeds.
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Thanks for making me laugh. :)

^

GPS ?

Missile complex 9-A-7660 ( MiG-31K and 9-S-7760 missile) has nothing to do with GPS/NAVSTAR,GLONASS etc.

On this photo we can see receive antenna ( pointed by the red arrow) of the so called МКРЦ «Лиана»

''«Лиана» (индекс ГРАУ — 14К159) — российская система глобальной спутниковой морской космической разведки и целеуказания (МКРЦ) силам ВМФ, предназначенная для постоянного мониторинга Мирового океана для определения дислокации кораблей противника, и прежде всего авианосных ударных групп, выдачи целей средствам ВМФ для поражения кораблей неприятеля.''

"Liana" (GRAU index - 14K159) is a Russian system of global satellite maritime space reconnaissance and target designation (MKRTs) for the Navy, designed for continuous monitoring of the World Ocean to determine the deployment of enemy ships, and primarily aircraft carrier strike groups, and to issue targets to the Navy's assets to destroy enemy ships.''

MiG-31K with the Kinzhal missile mod.jpg

I'm not sure what the three blue lines mark,maybe the same ,maybe....


https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/kinzhal/
Kh-47_Kinzhal_air-launched_nuclear-capable_hypersonic_missile_Russia_003.jpg

https://www.armyrecognition.com/mil...ighlight=WyJydXNzaWEiXQ==#galleryca4c1300fc-3
 
 
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Scott Kenny said:
Yes, I probably should have just said "navigation system" instead of "GPS."

But Lima is described in open literature as a positional-injection cyber-attack system.
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Nevermind and to end this endless false story about the jamming of Kinzhal. There is one phenomena about the Kinzhal and other ballistic missiles and it is so called ''faraday cage''. 'Because the heat of missile creates a blanket of ionized plasma around it that acts as a faraday cage, blocking any radio waves'.

That 'Lima' with its range of 300km can jamm something like bombs with UMPK kits,drones, recce or combat UAV's etc.. but to jamm incoming Kinzhal ,I don't think so. To jamm ''Liana'', they can only dream about it.

Another thing, Kinzhal is very valuable weapon and it is not w/o the reason that all MiG-31K are part of the Long range Aviation.

View: https://www.instagram.com/p/CrKhROdt4F6/?img_index=1


https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Коман...atch_of_the_Long_range_aviation_of_Russia.svg

Kinzhal is developed and made to destroy highly valuable targets like aircraft carriers,cruisers and other bigger vessels. Targets like that deep underground bunker/storage in Delyatin ( something like GBU-57 Massive Ordnance Penetrator /MOP is capable to do ) etc. It is not developed against some HAS on military bases etc.

Story about that so called Lima is very similar to the story about MIM-104 PATRIOT ,especially known of course false story from 4 May 2023 when Ukrainians announced that they shot down Kinzhal over Kiev. After several days they got answer with the real Kinzhal which destroyed almost complete PATRIOT battery on the Zhuliany airport.
What was debunking for the Ukrainians was that they never showed any footage of anything related to that downing except some fake wreckage and remains of who knows what.On other side, Kinzhal attack on that PATRIOT battery was well documented ( filmed) by the own Kiev's citizens.

There is no point to write that tens or hundreds of Kinzhal are intercepted ,shot down ,jammed etc etc. I already wrote, war propaganda is sometimes very useful ,especially during the hard time. I personally know that from NATO against FRY war during 1999.
 
Forest Green said:
So how come RADAC guidance is a thing?
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Yes ,that is right question exactly as one about those receive or whatever antennas on the missile itself. The problem is that we don't know almost nothing about the Kinzhal.How did they succeed to integrate that suppose active radar seeker in the missile which ''drop from the sky'' with the speed 1-2km/s ?!

This video is made several years ago during one exercise and we can see Bort No 30 & 31 blue with the training version of the Kinzhal w/o the real warhead .

Пуск гиперзвуковой ракеты «Кинжал» в рамках планового учения​


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abWKmsjv2n0
 
Squirrel said:
Yes ,that is right question exactly as one about those receive or whatever antennas on the missile itself. The problem is that we don't know almost nothing about the Kinzhal.How did they succeed to integrate that suppose active radar seeker in the missile which ''drop from the sky'' with the speed 1-2km/s ?!
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1-2 kps is not fast enough to induce radar blackout.
 
Squirrel said:
Nevermind and to end this endless false story about the jamming of Kinzhal. There is one phenomena about the Kinzhal and other ballistic missiles and it is so called ''faraday cage''. 'Because the heat of missile creates a blanket of ionized plasma around it that acts as a faraday cage, blocking any radio waves'.

Snip.
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It looks like someone here is deep in denial refusing to believe that the AS-24's GPS/GLONASS receiver can't be spoofed and/or jammed, the Ukrainians have had four years of dealing with this ALBM to come up with means of entering with its' midcourse guidance-system.​

Squirrel said:
There is one phenomena about the Kinzhal and other ballistic missiles and it is so called ''faraday cage''. 'Because the heat of missile creates a blanket of ionized plasma around it that acts as a faraday cage, blocking any radio waves'.
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While its' peak velocity is M10 it doesn't travel fast enough to form a plasma-sheath and after it it reenters the atmosphere it loses speed fairly quickly so by the time its entered terminal phase it has slowed to supersonic speeds (It can't effectively manoeuvre when it's hypersonic).​
 
Squirrel said:
Yes ,that is right question exactly as one about those receive or whatever antennas on the missile itself. The problem is that we don't know almost nothing about the Kinzhal.How did they succeed to integrate that suppose active radar seeker in the missile which ''drop from the sky'' with the speed 1-2km/s ?!
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My point is that if RADAC can get out of such missilies and back in (e.g. Pershing II), then so can jamming.
 
NMaude said:
It looks like someone here is deep in denial refusing to believe that the AS-24's GPS/GLONASS receiver can't be spoofed and/or jammed, the Ukrainians have had four years of dealing with this ALBM to come up with means of entering with its' midcourse guidance-system.​
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Again, Kinzhal has nothing to do with either GPS or GLONASS .

NMaude said:
While its' peak velocity is M10 it doesn't travel fast enough to form a plasma-sheath and after it it reenters the atmosphere it loses speed fairly quickly so by the time its entered terminal phase it has slowed to supersonic speeds (It can't effectively manoeuvre when it's hypersonic).​
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Peak velocity ( about Mach 10 and depends on height, etc) ,can be only achieved during and little after the acceleration phase. Now, Kinzhal is not hypersonic, it is quasi-ballistic missile.During the acceleration and climbing phase , thanks to combined gas-aero dynamic controls ( TVC and stabilizers),Kinzhal can continue to climb after initial upper point of the first climb phase.

TVC is used only during acceleration/climbing phase, so during the rocket engine burn phase.After that,stabilizers only can be used.Speed of the Kinzhal even through troposphere is very big,if it is really about 1.5 km/s ,than it is about Mach 5.

Forest Green said:
My point is that if RADAC can get out of such missilies and back in (e.g. Pershing II), then so can jamming.
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If, yes. During terminal phase only but that phase lasts only several seconds.About that jamming, it will mean only jamming of the active radar seeker ,nothing else.
 
Squirrel said:
If, yes. During terminal phase only but that phase lasts only several seconds.About that jamming, it will mean only jamming of the active radar seeker ,nothing else.
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At 2km/s or M6 average speed it would take 30s to get from 60km to altitude to ground. The GPS can probably be jammed too. If there's a means of in-flight re-targeting then there are options there too.

Depends on how the jammer works too. If it merely blocks RADAC returns, and disrupts GPS, then INS would still ensure some kind of accuracy. If it manages to fool something like RADAC or in-flight re-tarrgeting into looking elsewhere, then that could mean much more inaccuracy. Or maybe there's even a way to make the internal INS think it's corrupted too.

NMaude said:
It is still going to slow down especially if it's manoeuvring as it drops below 50,000ft with the air getting rapidly thicker at that point.
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Its terminal (touchdown) speed is M2.5-4 according to Ukraine.

How dangerous is Russia’s Zircon missile?​

https://english.nv.ua/russian-war/r...-on-sumy-what-the-weapon-can-do-50561551.html
 
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Colleagues, for all how mention GPS or GLONASS. Please stop but stop mentioning GPS/GLONASS anymore.

NMaude said:
It is still going to slow down especially if it's manoeuvring as it drops below 50,000ft with the air getting rapidly thicker at that point.
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There is little chance that Kinzhal can maneuver during the terminal phase. Did you see the video previously posted anyway?

Forest Green said:
Its terminal speed is M2.5-4 according to Ukraine.
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Yes and according to Ukraine,several tens or hundreds of Kinzhal's are jammed and intercepted from the beginning of the war .
 
Squirrel said:
There is little chance that Kinzhal can maneuver during the terminal phase. Did you see the video previously posted anyway?
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What? So how would it achieve any kind of accuracy on its target then?
Squirrel said:
Yes and according to Ukraine,several tens or hundreds of Kinzhal's are jammed and intercepted from the beginning of the war .
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I think it sounds realistic for an impact speed. Peak speed during descent will likely be higher.
 

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