System 9-A-7660 Kinzhal - 9-S-7760 missile (Article 292) / AS-24 KILLJOY


What on Earth were the owners of that house doing holding an unexploded AS-24 warhead?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
> It is presumed that EW caused the hypersonic missile to fall without detonation.

How is electronic warfare supposed to interfere with the internal arming and detonation mechanism? Does Ukraine suddenly field high powered microwave weapons gifted to them from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

The reasonable explanation is simply technical failure of the warhead, if that's an actual Kinzhal warhead to begin with.
 
EmoBirb said:
> It is presumed that EW caused the hypersonic missile to fall without detonation.

How is electronic warfare supposed to interfere with the internal arming and detonation mechanism? Does Ukraine suddenly field high powered microwave weapons gifted to them from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

The reasonable explanation is simply technical failure of the warhead, if that's an actual Kinzhal warhead to begin with.
Click to expand...
Doesn't seem to have landed in the correct place either though.
 
Last edited:
What I am trying to personally figure out is if a user is

A) Is he just rage-baiting other users (worked on me twice) to farm some kind of engagement?

B) is incredibly gullible to whatever any other random user says on the internet, like the twitter user he is referencing was using the term, "putler" in his tweet which questions if the person he is using as his source is of age to be allowed to even use the internet. If he does come to this thread, then I suggest he starts quoting Kyiv independent articles or well-known pro-Ukraine YouTube users making their coverages instead of random users which could be just kids using twitter.
 
EmoBirb said:
> It is presumed that EW caused the hypersonic missile to fall without detonation.

How is electronic warfare supposed to interfere with the internal arming and detonation mechanism? Does Ukraine suddenly field high powered microwave weapons gifted to them from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

The reasonable explanation is simply technical failure of the warhead, if that's an actual Kinzhal warhead to begin with.
Click to expand...
www.trenchart.us

To Beat Missiles, Ukraine Tracked Old Soviet Engineers

Old-timers taught how to jam cruise missiles
www.trenchart.us www.trenchart.us

The Ukrainians found out the Kinzhal uses a Soviet-era datalink to receive satellite guidance in the terminal phase, so they developed a system called 'Lima' to spoof it. One of the methods (and the namesake of the system) is making the missile think it's actually in Lima, Peru, making the missile try to rapidly turn around, which is not a good idea if you are flying at Mach 6. The missile falls apart from the violent manuevers and crashes.
 
Elysium said:
www.trenchart.us

To Beat Missiles, Ukraine Tracked Old Soviet Engineers

Old-timers taught how to jam cruise missiles
www.trenchart.us www.trenchart.us

The Ukrainians found out the Kinzhal uses a Soviet-era datalink to receive satellite guidance in the terminal phase, so they developed a system called 'Lima' to spoof it. One of the methods (and the namesake of the system) is making the missile think it's actually in Lima, Peru, making the missile try to rapidly turn around, which is not a good idea if you are flying at Mach 6. The missile falls apart from the violent manuevers and crashes.
Click to expand...
Issue with that story is that the missiles, just like it's TEL based cousin, has multiple modes of guidance to provide redundancy, including INS which you cannot reasonably jam. Which means that the missiles, as soon as other modes of guidance become unviable, defaults back to the other guidance systems. We're talking about a weapon which can also hold a tactical nuclear warhead after all.

More so, there have been no indications of Iskander-M being affected by some kind of jamming, which is suspected to be closely related to the Kinzhal. As the missiles launched by the Iskander-M system seem to still remain one of the most effective precision strike weapons with very little reliable countermeasures being present.

Then there's the issue of rapidly adapting systems. For example Geranium and UMPK equipped FABs were very successful and precise, then Ukraine figured out a way to jam them, Russians adapted, jamming was now less effective again, Ukrainians adapted and jammed the reworked guidance, Russians tinkered with the guidance again. To a point where you have multimode guidance in the glide bombs and long range drones to provide back up to the back up to the back up in case the frequency from which it gets reliable guidance data is being jammed. And again, Kinzhal is also a tactical nuclear weapon with the associated warhead equipped, so even if it wouldn't have redundancy already built into it, which it has, it would have by now.

Quite frankly, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. And in this case that's simply an accidental or deliberate misidentification of the weapon. Something I rather early alluded to as this pattern of damage is more in line with Russian bombs, which are known to be affected by jamming, rather than the ballistic missiles which cause a different kind of damage and are quite frankly extremely hard to jam. And the tolerances in INS that may be amplified by travel distance are not as extreme as the claim above.

Lastly, the wording chosen by the linked Twitter account should make it clear how credible it is (which is not very credible at all) and as such anything presented as "information" should be treated very carefully and sceptical.
 
Null said:
What I am trying to personally figure out is if a user is

A) Is he just rage-baiting other users (worked on me twice) to farm some kind of engagement?

B) is incredibly gullible to whatever any other random user says on the internet, like the twitter user he is referencing was using the term, "putler" in his tweet which questions if the person he is using as his source is of age to be allowed to even use the internet. If he does come to this thread, then I suggest he starts quoting Kyiv independent articles or well-known pro-Ukraine YouTube users making their coverages instead of random users which could be just kids using twitter.
Click to expand...
I don't want to make grand accusations, but yes the source is non-credible.
 
EmoBirb said:
Issue with that story is that the missiles, just like it's TEL based cousin, has multiple modes of guidance to provide redundancy, including INS which you cannot reasonably jam. Which means that the missiles, as soon as other modes of guidance become unviable, defaults back to the other guidance systems. We're talking about a weapon which can also hold a tactical nuclear warhead after all.

More so, there have been no indications of Iskander-M being affected by some kind of jamming, which is suspected to be closely related to the Kinzhal. As the missiles launched by the Iskander-M system seem to still remain one of the most effective precision strike weapons with very little reliable countermeasures being present.

Then there's the issue of rapidly adapting systems. For example Geranium and UMPK equipped FABs were very successful and precise, then Ukraine figured out a way to jam them, Russians adapted, jamming was now less effective again, Ukrainians adapted and jammed the reworked guidance, Russians tinkered with the guidance again. To a point where you have multimode guidance in the glide bombs and long range drones to provide back up to the back up to the back up in case the frequency from which it gets reliable guidance data is being jammed. And again, Kinzhal is also a tactical nuclear weapon with the associated warhead equipped, so even if it wouldn't have redundancy already built into it, which it has, it would have by now.

Quite frankly, the simplest answer is usually the correct one. And in this case that's simply an accidental or deliberate misidentification of the weapon. Something I rather early alluded to as this pattern of damage is more in line with Russian bombs, which are known to be affected by jamming, rather than the ballistic missiles which cause a different kind of damage and are quite frankly extremely hard to jam. And the tolerances in INS that may be amplified by travel distance are not as extreme as the claim above.

Lastly, the wording chosen by the linked Twitter account should make it clear how credible it is (which is not very credible at all) and as such anything presented as "information" should be treated very carefully and sceptical.
Click to expand...
I don't think there's a single set of receivers/datalinks for any one of these systems - if you read some articles on the blog (and probably there are much better ones out there), there's a constant cat and mouse game with Ukrainians jamming/spoofing these guidance systems, and the Russians find out a way to counter the jamming, with each subsequent iteration getting its hardware tweaked.
As for inertial navigation - it's a very precarious thing - it measures acceleration and derives speed mathematically, which is subject to second-order error, as a tiny error in measuring acceleration accumulates in measuring speed, and the accumulated error gets added to the error bounds of the position - this is a thing about all INS, that's why the best systems are not super accurate.
I frankly don't think it's possible to make a missile that flies at Mach 6 for 1000km and then is supposed to hit within a 10m radius of a target using INS alone.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom