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Internal Kinzhal Variant

panzerfeist1

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There have been some mentions on this missile before and after also it could be assumed its a unbuilt missile project because it has not been declared operational or tested yet so here we go.

The Sources


“The Russian military want to arm the Su-57 with a smaller hypersonic missile capable of fitting inside the stealth aircraft’s weapons bay, according to an aviation industry source cited by TASS. The alternative of fitting the large Kinzhal on a hard point, would have increased the jet’s radar cross-section.

The development of the new missile is part of Russia’s current military buildup program, which covers a period between 2018 and 2027, the source said. No details about a timetable for the development or the planned specifications for the missile were offered. The Defense Ministry would neither confirm nor deny the information.”



“FEB 22, 23:03 Updated 23:10

“A small-sized inboard fuselage hypersonic missile was developed for the Russian fifth-generation fighter Su-57, a prototype of ammunition was created. This was reported on Sunday by TASS sources in the military-industrial complex.

"The enterprises of the Russian military-industrial complex have created a prototype of a small-sized air-to-surface hypersonic missile for intra-fuselable deployment on a Su-57 fighter," said one of the agency’s interlocutors.

Another source confirmed the creation of the prototype and clarified that "the rocket has not yet been tested with the carrier aircraft." The interlocutors did not disclose the characteristics of the latest ammunition.

TASS does not have official confirmation of the information provided by sources.

In December 2018, another source in the defense industry told TASS that, within the framework of the state armament program for 2018-2027, the Su-57 is planned to be equipped with a missile with characteristics similar to hypersonic missiles of the Dagger airline complex, but with an inside fuselage."


Feasibility

Source From a User since I can't post the link:


"Now the Kinzhal is likely based off of the Iskander (mass of 3800kg) which has a diameter of 920mm. Based on the fact that the cockpit on the MiG 31 fits between the two engines and 900mm gives a reasonable amount of room for a pilot I'd say the Kinzhal is of similar diameter. Length wise from the image above if we measure the distance the missile takes up on our screen, draw a line of equal length, and copy and paste said line to fill the length of the aircraft, I found the missile’s length to be able to fit along the length of the aircraft 2.83 times meaning it is 0.35 times the length of the MiG 35; that works out to 7.98m.

The volume of a cylinder (which matches the profile of most of the missile’s length) is given byπ∗r2xhπ∗r2xh where r is the radius and h is the length. Yes the missile’s have a cone-like front section, but this rough calculation will give a value exceeding that of the missile and thus you will see a very generous amount, important to note if the range turns out to be short anyway.

Using the aforementioned equation the volume of the Kinzhal is 5.30∗106cm35.30∗106cm3. Since the weapon bays appear to be a rectangular prism we use v=l∗w∗hv=l∗w∗h

where v is volume, l is length, w is width, and h is height. That gives us a weapon bay volume of 2.48∗106cm32.48∗106cm3.

That means the volume of the Kinzhal must be reduced by a factor of 0.46.

The downscaled Kinzhal will have 0.19 the area for its rocket nozzle meaning the rate at which propellent is ejector is also cut by 0.19 (oversimplification again). That means that thrust goes down by a factor of 0.19 while mass decreases by only 0.46. The original Kinzhal would then have 2.4x the thrust to weight ratio of the newer missile. As drag is proportional to the cross sectional area the newer missile has 0.46x the drag of the original. That means the overall acceleration is 0.28 that of the original.

The optimum launch angle is 45 degrees (being generous again as the missile will probably not be launched at exactly 45, in fact it may be fired level with the ground and has to point itself upwards). They say that the kinzhal has a range of 2000km launched from the MiG 31 and 3000km launched from the TU 22; I fail to see how a simple change in launch platform increase the range by 50% so I’m just going to take the average of those two, 2500km. We will be even more generous and not take into account atmospheric drag. to calculate the total energy output of the missile. Using dx=(v2sin2a)/gdx=(v2sin2a)/g where dxdx is horizontal distance covered, v is velocity, a is angle, and g is the gravitational acceleration of 9.81 meters per second squared, we isolate for v to find the initial velocity. That gives us an initial velocity of 5000m/s (way more than the actual figure reported to around 3430m/s because of our generosity with these figures). Using Ek=0.5mv2Ek=0.5mv2 we get 47.5 GJ of energy. Since volume is proportional to mass the scaled down kinzhal will have 0.46x the mass and as long as it uses the same fuel it will have 0.46x the energy, 21.9 GJ. Converting this back into initial velocity gets us the same 5000m/s. Considering only 0.28x this value goes towards increasing the missile’s mechanical energy then the missile also has 0.28x the range.

Final verdict, the missile has a range of 690km give or take."


Recent Discovery To Maintain The High Thrust To The Calculations Above


“February 23, 2020 Russian experts from NUST “MISiS” learned to increase the speed of missiles by adding copper to the fuel composition. As part of the tests, scientists were convinced that the copper nanoparticles in the fuel will significantly increase the efficiency (efficiency) of rocket engines.

For some time, scientists studied the effects of nano- and microadditives of aluminum, boron, zinc, nickel, copper and molybdenum on the burning rate of solid fuels. As a result, each of the additives showed a different rate of catalytic activity. For example, boron increased the burning rate of fuel by only 10%, and copper - by 500%.

As you know, at present, the so-called cyclic nitramines are used as combustible material in solid rocket fuel. However, these substances are quite resistant to the action of existing catalysts, which imposes a restriction on the burning rate of the fuel and, as a consequence, on the speed of the object. The search for new combustion catalysts for various types of jet fuel is a key task.

Researchers have proposed an alternative component composition of solid fuels. As a fuel, experts used aluminum powder, a catalyst - nano- and microadditives of aluminum, boron, zinc, nickel, copper, molybdenum and their oxides. It turned out that the addition of copper nanoparticles to fuel would increase the speed of rockets by a factor of five. The result of the study showed that copper increases the burning rate of fuel by 500%, zinc - by 130%, and boron - by 10% "


Multiply the thrust 0.19 back up to 500% or 5 times will give the new small missile almost the exact original speed but the same lower range would more than likely persist. Looking at russias R-73 and R-74 ranges and speed estimates, range increases from 300km to 500km going from ATACMS to PRSM shows we made improvements, Vikhr ranges to newer Hermes ranges has shown improvements as well.

Offer Similar Functions

Not Similar to the Kh-15 or black sparrow missiles but a possible similar function to these missiles

https://missiledefenseadvocacy.org/...-proliferation/russia/kh-47m2-kinzhal-dagger/

“It has a claimed range of more than 2,000 km, a speed of more than Mach 10, and an ability to perform evasive maneuvers at every stage of flight carrying both conventional and nuclear warheads”

http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/iscander/iscander.shtml

“The 9M723 missile is a solid fuel, single-stage missile with a warhead inseparable in flight. The missile is controlled along the entire flight path using aerodynamic and gas-dynamic rudders. The 9M723 flight path is not ballistic, but controllable. The rocket is constantly changing the plane of the trajectory. It is especially active in maneuvering in the area of its acceleration and approach to the target - with an overload of 20 to 30g.

In order to intercept the 9M723 missile, the anti-missile must move along the trajectory with an overload two to three times higher, and this is almost impossible. Most of the flight path of a rocket manufactured using the Stealth technology and having a small reflecting surface passes at an altitude of 50 km, which also significantly reduces the likelihood of its destruction by the enemy.


Might Be Scramjet than Aeroballistic Missile

Brahmos-NG is said to offer the same range estimates as a previous Brahmos missile but with an increase of speed to mach 3.5 and a small size that is getting pretty close to fitting in aircrafts like the su-57. And I am assuming that the missile technology they keep for themselves is better than the missile technology they share with another country, Or Zircon having better performance than the Brahmos-2

Its believed that the same VLS will be used to launch the newer onyx variants which suggests the sizes will be roughly the same but a speed increase from mach 3 to mach 5 on another thread I have made in this forum.

Scramjets consist of a solid rocket booster to get the right speeds and altitudes for the scramjet engine to kick on next. The copper additives can give options to down size solid rocket boosters.

Zircon before had estimates of mach 6 and 500kms, Estimates were given to mach 8, estimates were given for mach 9 and than plans of doing this https://navalnews.net/russian-developers-to-increase-the-speed-of-zircon-missile-over-10-mach/ to stay at an altitude that is favorable for its flight.

Benefits To Internal Hypersonic Missiles.

Lets say there is a B-52 carrying an AGM-183 arrow or Mig-31 carrying a kinzhal and either one of them launch their missile from 3,000 kms.

  • There is an altitude climb that can make it possible for radars to spot such a missile from 1000kms away.
  • The long distance flight of 3,000kms for the missile will make it possible to warn that a missile attack is approaching from satellite infrared sources.
  • Also hypersonic speeds form a plasma which causes disturbances in HF frequencies that can determine a hypersonic threat is on its way https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fu....
  • The B-52 and mig-31 with an external hypersonic missile carry will definitely notify other aerial units in case they fly by because they will have a very stupidly big RCS.
  • And if they do happen to launch it 3000kms away from those aircrafts than their can be nearby mobile radar sources on land, sea and air using different frequencies will notice their is a hyper sonic object which is more than likely a missile, which more than likely suggests their is an attack underway.
Now the B-21 or Su-57 with internal hypersonic missiles offers these following benefits.

  • Infrared sources will have a more difficult time finding them.
  • Nearby radar systems on land, sea, air will have difficulty finding them.
  • Using LPI radar will make it difficult for passive sensors to identify them.
  • Less possibility of being spotted by OTH radars because of launching hyper-sonic missiles at a closer distance without too much disturbance because of plasma.
  • Significantly less reaction time for defense systems to realize an attack just happened before its too late.
  • Internal weapon bay missiles will be very small, having smaller RCS and infrared signature than a bigger missile with same speeds.
  • At-least 2 of them will be carried with a stealth profile.
 
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zen

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A hypersonic missile scaled to fit such weapons bays as exist on the SU-57 would really deliver a lower time from bay opening to missile arrival against a target.
The trade off is likely warhead size.
But this has some validity for LO aircraft.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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You aren't off to a great start by admitting the post probably doesn't belong in this section. You post some TASS links, then quote a pile of speculation posted by a Physics major on the (rather dubious) Quora website. You then claim in advance that the only reason the topic might be controversial is a 'major insult to ego' about stealth?

Perhaps there's a diamond of truth hidden somewhere, but its hard to see in the swamps of cubic zirconium of your posts.

"TASS state that an internal carriage hypersonic missile is in development for the Su-57". Much better.
 

panzerfeist1

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You aren't off to a great start by admitting the post probably doesn't belong in this section.

If this missile doesn't belong here, than so doesn't the agm-183 because they have not been tested yet correct(mini-kinzhal variant is different from the original kinzhal)? I thought I was adhering to the rules? Moon_light from key aero and you dont seem to trust a Pro-US military weapon fan who has a physics major can you explain that in detail as to why? I delete the stealth controversial quote. These kinds of responses I am receiving I am guessing I am on your $h%t list.

Also since you told me you have other accounts at other forums. Can you please create an account over there as well(I will definitely be one of your followers)? If you want to believe it or not but one of my biggest critics here at this forum did happen to create an account over there because of me when I mentioned this media site at another aviation forum.
 
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overscan (PaulMM)

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Current programs should be in Aviation and Space, ideally.

Quora is a site where anyone can ask questions and anyone can post an answer. Its no more interesting or valid than, say, Facebook. Most of the questions are repetitive, banal or soliciting pornography, but lets leave that to one side.

Quoting someone's Quora post is the equivalent of saying " a guy on the internet said..."

Credibility comes from a source's subject relevant knowledge or experience, and also track record. TASS itself has a chequered record itself on accuracy for example.

Maybe Jack Zhang, first year undergraduate Mathematical Physics student from Ontario is a world-renowned expert in missile design, consulted on by the CIA for foreign weapons analysis. I doubt it though. I think he's just a young guy with an interest in weapons. I see no reason to repost his Quora answer here. No extra knowledge is added to the forum by it.

All I see is a bunch of vastly oversimplified high school maths / geometry and a boatload of assumptions that tell me nothing I couldn't figure out for myself e.g. Khinzal won't fit in an Su-57 weapons bay, or that hypersonic weapons travel faster.

Woop de do dah.
 
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DWG

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The claim Khinzal is probably based on Iskander seems fairly unlikely, and everything else just piles on that guess.
 

panzerfeist1

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Remember one source was given before and another source came later about the mentions of fitting it inside the Su-57. Although it is not given a name yet that is why I put this topic on this section.
 
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Ronny

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ERyitnFW4AAx7Wl.jpg ER5YkOmXsAEqtRv.jpg

The booster stage is big but glider is very small. Boost glider or air launched ballistic missile that fit internally can't fly as fast as the external version because they have to be smaller and it will take longer for an aircraft to fly 2300 km at Mach 0.8 then launch Mach 10 missile at 690 km. Than a glider crossing 3000 km at Mach 20.
First option takes more than 2 hours an a half, second options takes 7 minutes
 

panzerfeist1

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The booster stage is big but glider is very small. Boost glider or air launched ballistic missile that fit internally can't fly as fast as the external version because they have to be smaller and it will take longer for an aircraft to fly 2300 km at Mach 0.8 then launch Mach 10 missile at 690 km. Than a glider crossing 3000 km at Mach 20.
First option takes more than 2 hours an a half, second options takes 7 minutes

Since I usually see your username on this forum browsing my posted content I sort of in a way made this topic to bait you and unblock you since I am feeling bored.

It seems like the image that you are showing me is a missile leaving the atmosphere. There is an OTH radar that tracks targets 3000kms away, but makes an additional claim that only ballistic missiles can be tracked 6,000kms away. And such is the reason that I post this https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1055070.pdf where hypersonic targets form plasmas which those disturbances are recorded by OTH radars that a hypersonic target is on its way. You are sort of saying to your targets hey guys we are on our way.

Now If I am assuming that the mach 20 HGV is the AGM-183A I will start to question you as in have they made HGVs like the HTV-2 around same speeds last atleast 1/3rd of its flights? The sources I have found about this was.

1. From flight Global(Was posted by Moose), but when they made the mach 20 claim they also said the HCSW was an airbreathable missile that sort of destroys that website's own credibility when giving information out to the public.

2. I went to find another earlier source like popular mechanincs but when the said mach 20 than said 4 times the speed of kinzhal (according other sources of kinzhal which is mach 40 to mach 48) that destroyed the websites reputation more than flight Global.

But of course OTH radar is not the only source that immediately warns another country of an attack. Such as LEO infrared satellites projects proposed by the Pentagon can immediately warn than an attack is about to happen. And of course if we are assuming the opposing country has ground radars and that the HGV is at a 100km altitude and depending on the height of the ground radar that is 1,300km+ warning.

Yes OTH radars can track stealth aircrafts and alert another country that an aircraft is passing by. But that is dependent if those OTH radars can have the abilitiy to identify cruise missiles and aircraft(one such OTH radar claims this). There can be some with a poor performance that might assume a stealth aircraft is just a passenger plane and not send military aircrafts to confront the approaching target. If they did have the descrimination ablility to confirmly identify its a military aircraft. They would not know that there are hypersonic missiles housed inside the aircraft. And of course this would still allow the approaching aircraft to only get close enough to another country's airspace than launch an attack instead of getting warned from 3000kms away

I do not know if the Pentagon's new LEO satellites are able to track aircrafts with lower altitudes, infrared reducing stealth and lower speed targets than HGVs, but if they did they cannot further confirm if the aircraft is armed with hypersonic missiles. If we pretend its a mach 20 HGV than thats an immediate warning of an attack from 3000kms away.

If ground radars in low and high frequency have a 1300km+ than the approaching speeds of a mach 20 HGV can be saying there is an attack. However stealth aircrafts with enhanced EW capabilities can allow them to get closer and as long as that aircraft does not begin to cross the other country's airspace.

I was going to re-copy and re-paste the same information I have listed above but I believe this explanation is more simple. It has been confirmed of course of there being an internal kinzhal variant back in dec 2018, and reconfirmed a week ago that a ammunition was developed. Rather if this is confirmed as BS tass is still doing a better job by not talking too much to give their selves away like the past 2 earliest sources I can find on the other missile which I believe that you are suggesting about. If copper additives of reduction to maintain same high speeds is not convincing enough for others. I would also take a look at missiles like the brahmos-NG that they are willing to share with another country which speeds are close to hypersonic and downsizing is getting pretty close enough to fit in the su-57.
 
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DWG

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Kinzhal IS based on Iskander.

I was presuming the Khinzal mission profile would require greater manouverability than Iskander, and that being thrown around under a fighter-bomber would need a significantly stronger structure than Iskander WRT potential lateral accelerations. But always happy to be corrected.
 

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DWG - you could be right. Perhaps it is altered internally for its new role or it's the military equivalent of a "potemkin village".
 

Ronny

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Since I usually see your username on this forum browsing my posted content I sort of in a way made this topic to bait you and unblock you since I am feeling bored.

It seems like the image that you are showing me is a missile leaving the atmosphere. There is an OTH radar that tracks targets 3000kms away, but makes an additional claim that only ballistic missiles can be tracked 6,000kms away. And such is the reason that I post this https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1055070.pdf where hypersonic targets form plasmas which those disturbances are recorded by OTH radars that a hypersonic target is on its way. You are sort of saying to your targets hey guys we are on our way.

Now If I am assuming that the mach 20 HGV is the AGM-183A I will start to question you as in have they made HGVs like the HTV-2 around same speeds last atleast 1/3rd of its flights? The sources I have found about this was.

1. From flight Global(Was posted by Moose), but when they made the mach 20 claim they also said the HCSW was an airbreathable missile that sort of destroys that website's own credibility when giving information out to the public.

2. I went to find another earlier source like popular mechanincs but when the said mach 20 than said 4 times the speed of kinzhal (according other sources of kinzhal which is mach 40 to mach 48) that destroyed the websites reputation more than flight Global.

But of course OTH radar is not the only source that immediately warns another country of an attack. Such as LEO infrared satellites projects proposed by the Pentagon can immediately warn than an attack is about to happen. And of course if we are assuming the opposing country has ground radars and that the HGV is at a 100km altitude and depending on the height of the ground radar that is 1,300km+ warning.

Yes OTH radars can track stealth aircrafts and alert another country that an aircraft is passing by. But that is dependent if those OTH radars can have the abilitiy to identify cruise missiles and aircraft(one such OTH radar claims this). There can be some with a poor performance that might assume a stealth aircraft is just a passenger plane and not send military aircrafts to confront the approaching target. If they did have the descrimination ablility to confirmly identify its a military aircraft. They would not know that there are hypersonic missiles housed inside the aircraft. And of course this would still allow the approaching aircraft to only get close enough to another country's airspace than launch an attack instead of getting warned from 3000kms away

I do not know if the Pentagon's new LEO satellites are able to track aircrafts with lower altitudes, infrared reducing stealth and lower speed targets than HGVs, but if they did they cannot further confirm if the aircraft is armed with hypersonic missiles. If we pretend its a mach 20 HGV than thats an immediate warning of an attack from 3000kms away.

If ground radars in low and high frequency have a 1300km+ than the approaching speeds of a mach 20 HGV can be saying there is an attack. However stealth aircrafts with enhanced EW capabilities can allow them to get closer and as long as that aircraft does not begin to cross the other country's airspace.

I was going to re-copy and re-paste the same information I have listed above but I believe this explanation is more simple. It has been confirmed of course of there being an internal kinzhal variant back in dec 2018, and reconfirmed a week ago that a ammunition was developed. Rather if this is confirmed as BS tass is still doing a better job by not talking too much to give their selves away like the past 2 earliest sources I can find on the other missile which I believe that you are suggesting about. If copper additives of reduction to maintain same high speeds is not convincing enough for others. I would also take a look at missiles like the brahmos-NG that they are willing to share with another country which speeds are close to hypersonic and downsizing is getting pretty close enough to fit in the su-57.
If you use an OTH radar then the altitude doesn't matter.
HTV-2 is a DARPA experimental program, ARRW is a weapon program funded by USAF and developed by Lockheed Martin. They are different programs, but for your information, HTV-2 flew for 9 minutes at Mach 20, that is still 3660 km before it got disintegrated
If you want to question the speed of ARRW base on HTV-2, then I can also question the speed of internal Kinzhal version . You claimed the internal Kinzhal will reach Mach 10 similar to the much bigger external version launched from Mig-31. Because you find some link that said a scientist from Russian national university find out that "boron increased the burning rate of fuel by only 10%, and copper - by 500%". First, the university that made the discovery isn't even the same agency that developed internal Kinzhal, and there is a big gap of time from discoveries in the labs and weapon production. On the other hand, if you believe that internal Kinzhal speed can be increased by 5 times, then why can't same thing can't happen to ARRW? with new fuel, it can be 5 times faster than Kinzhal? Oh because it is US made and therefore will not enjoy improvement from new scientific discoveries?
1. They mistook HCSW for HAWC . That a big hit to their usual reputation, but I have seen you have no problem citing TASS https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...development-part-ii.15626/page-33#post-380719 even though they mistook K-74M2 SRAAM as Kh-74M2 cruise missile. So the reputation problem only applied if a source said some positive about US made weapons?
2- Could be that they assume Kinzhal speed to be Mach 5, same as Iskander. But I can bet if the situation is the opposite, some sources said internal Kinzhal have 4 times the speed of ARRW, you won't give a second to question the number.
After all, it doesn't matter, there are other references for ARRW speed:
The AGM-183A ARRW is a hypersonic strike weapon being developed by Lockheed Martin for the U.S. Air Force (USAF). The weapon is a boost-glide hypersonic system and consists of a rocket booster and hypersonic glider warhead. After being launched from an aircraft, the booster rocket accelerates to high speeds before releasing the hypersonic glide warhead payload which then glides unpowered to its target at hypersonic speeds up to Mach 20.
The radar horizon to a HGV at 100 km altitude is 1300 km. If it fly at Mach 20, you have a total of 3 minutes of warning time.
Brahmos-NG is a ramjet missile with Mach 3.5 top speed and 290 km max range, the range and speed of it is closer to a tactical weapon like AARGM-ER and ASM-3 than it is to an intermediate-range weapon like Kinzhal and ARRW.
 

Avimimus

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Quoting someone's Quora post is the equivalent of saying " a guy on the internet said..."

But aren't we also kindof "some guy on the internet"...?

I mean - we are, right?

Maybe Jack Zhang, first year undergraduate Mathematical Physics student from Ontario is a world-renowned expert in missile design, consulted on by the CIA for foreign weapons analysis. I doubt it though. I think he's just a young guy with an interest in weapons. I see no reason to repost his Quora answer here. No extra knowledge is added to the forum by it.

All I see is a bunch of vastly oversimplified high school maths / geometry and a boatload of assumptions that tell me nothing I couldn't figure out for myself e.g. Khinzal won't fit in an Su-57 weapons bay, or that hypersonic weapons travel faster.

For argument sake - I found the solitary second volume of a two volume rocketry engineering tome in an Ontario thriftshop... maybe he found the other volume?

Seriously though: Walking people through even basic equations is good for public education, and bringing in some quantitative numbers (if they aren't too misleading) tends to elevate the conversation. So, I think it is a contribution.

That said - if you'd like to improve upon them - I'd be happy to see what you think is physically possible under those constraints (including the 700kg maximum weight)!

P.S. I'm not suggesting this type of calculation tells us about an actual missile, if there is one at all. However, with still classified projects, even understanding them at all requires on to 'play at being an analyst' to at least some degree.
 

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