Sukhoi PAK-FA (T-50, I-21) Part III

[Matej]

Request from flateric and all other moderators and administrators!

please more facts if you know something new
this should not be duplicate of PAK FA saga at you know where

To make it clear, posts like "PAK FA is better fighter than F-22 because I like it much" or "Will the PAK FA have the antigravity propulsion?" are not allowed!

 

[Colonial-Marine]

What is this "you know where" you speak of?

So it has been confirmed somewhere they started flight testing? Can't we get some grainy TV footage of it for old time's sake?

http://www.timesnow.tv/Russia-to-begin-induction-of-5th-generation-fighter-in-2015/articleshow/4327708.cms

Russian Air Force will begin the induction of fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), which it is developing in partnership with India, from 2015, a senior defence official has said. "Beginning from 2015 we will begin the induction of fifth generation fighters. They will have stealth features, greater engine resource, enhanced target acquisition, new weapon suites and airframe different from the present generation of fighters," Deputy Defence Minister, General Vladimir Popovkin said on "Ekho Moskvy" radio.

India is partnering Russia in the joint development and production of the FGFA under an agreement signed in Moscow in 2007 during Defence Minister AK Antony’s Moscow visit. The two nations are expected to finalise the FGFA contract next month during the Russia visit of Antony for the annual session of the Indo-Russian Intergovernmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation. According to earlier reports the FGFA would be developed on the basis of Sukhoi Corporation's secret PAKFA project. Under the understanding reached between the two countries, a lighter twin-seater version of the fifth generation fighter would be developed for India.

 

[QuadroFX]

What is this "you know where" you speak of?

PAK FA saga on forum.keypublishing.com

 

[fightingirish]

The forum member Alexander Pachkov bka "Paralay" has published an article in Nov. 2009 issue of Russian-language "Popular Mechanics" magazine.

 

[flateric]

Original article text in *.doc http://paralay.com/stat/reliz.doc
Article scans available at http://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=288&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=1680

Our congratulations to Sasha with the first publication.

P.S. Uncorrectly attributed and published without permission MiG 1.44 color 3-view by Zhirnov and early Josef Gatial's PAK FA rendering are solely responsibility of Popular Mechanics RE editors. I've written an e-mail about it to chief editor Sergey Apresov at s.apresov@imedia.ru, but have no answer from him.

 

[Demon Lord Razgriz]

That the article, Paralay mentions something about a legendary failed plane between the Su-47 & PAK-FA.

It is known that the headliner of the program - the Sukhoi Design Bureau, managed during this period to develop a number of "paper project": the Su-47 with less risky delta wing, a certain "Ushastik" which is legendary as a failure, and finally "The average front-line fighter" (SFI)

Any idea has to what this is? Cause I've never heard of it.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

I believe that is the "Big Ears" early/precursor PAK-FA design.

 

[Austin]

Isnt PAK-FA still a very much classified program and we still have to wait and see what it is , inspite of the very good work done by Paralay

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Echoing flateric, after 85 pages of endless circular speculation, can we this time try to stick to facts? Or at least informed speculation?

Third time lucky...

 

[flanker]

Any idea has to what this is? Cause I've never heard of it.

This one i believe:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2832.0.html

 

[lantinian]

I just stumbled upon some cool looking T-50 Artist renders...
I didn't really looked troughs all PAKFA treads here (too many), but they look kinda nice even thought they are just as fictional.

Original Article is here http://englishrussia.com/?p=3268

Now Russia has its own stealth jet bomber. They promise to have it here already this year and start producing it in series starting 2010.

They tell that the design of the plane is still kept secret and those sketches are the only clue that people have, but as it is known it would be a decent F-22 competitor.

 

[SOC]

Have you all heard about the Russian documents leaked onto the web describing a few T-50 aspects? Apparently the Russian government asked that they be removed rather quickly.

I have pretty good quality .jpeg copies if anyone is interested in cullign them for info or assessing their authenticity.

 

[lantinian]

Please, do not hesitate to email me a copy.
I had a poll running a while ago on the configuration of the PAK-FA, and I am curious as to the result.
I wonder though if we will be able to discuss the topic however indirectly.

 

[Stargazer2006]

These paintings are just STUNNING. Funny how this hypothetical T-50 reminds me of one of the old F-19 Ghostrider/Spectre models from the 1980s...

 

[mrdetonator]

Have you all heard about the Russian documents leaked onto the web describing a few T-50 aspects? Apparently the Russian government asked that they be removed rather quickly.

I have pretty good quality .jpeg copies if anyone is interested in cullign them for info or assessing their authenticity.

What sensitive aspects of the T-50 are described there? After reading the document what do you think about its authenticity?
Thanks

 

[lantinian]

From my limited Russian, I translate the title of the docs as "Study of technology and methods for development of full-scale silicon based canopy for existing and and future aircraft".
It looks very much like a government "standard" document. There is no data on the aircraft physical appearance. It's mostly covers specs and requirements of the canopy.

As far as authenticity goes...yeah, they looked like color scans of original document with stamps and all.

 

[sanjeev.k]

Hi all,
Saw some article on the register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/28/afosr_fibreless_links/) about how the USAF has succeeded in using airborne laser beams as an ultrahigh bandwidth, ultra secure (with the potential for using quantum entanglement) intraflight datalink. They managed to to set up 35-km long laser links "without distortions" in "both stationary and flight situations. A/c to the scientists it will be pretty easy to apply the same to existing operational aircraft.

What does this have to do with the PAK-FA? Well there is a post #495 dated 13th August 2007 on key pub forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66605&page=17) claiming that something similar is being investigated for the PAK-FA as well.

Extract of the paragraph is here:-
"[/quote]c) Any info on new datalink/NWC solutions?, last I have ever heard was "MSPD", you can read something about at: http://www.gzas.nnov.ru/produkt/avia/r11.htm
But I don't get very good the specs, per example, what's the transmission rate?, can you comment on it?[/quote]

Heard rumours about a new "top secret ultra-secure super-cool" laser beam datalink system, with tremendous bitrates, but nothing definite.
The MSPD simply means "Communication and Data Transmission Module" and is actually fairly old. Transmission rate is between 75 and 16000 baud, it has 2 effective MIL-STD channels, 14/4 entry/exit consecutive and 96/16 parallel channels. Its advantage is that it's (relatively) light (10 kg) and small, making installation easier on smaller types of aircraft or helos.
Something similar is being done for the PAK FA by the FGUP "TsKBA" at the moment. "


When I had read that post 2 years back, I thought the guy was talking nonsense, but in light of this USAF research, maybe its not so implausible after all.

Of course - whilst the russians may be good at the physics/math's aspects behind these things - manufacturing it into real hardware is something else. After all, NIIP only succeeded in making a real AESA only in 2009, almost 20 years behind the F-22.

 

[Woody]

Have you all heard about the Russian documents leaked onto the web describing a few T-50 aspects? Apparently the Russian government asked that they be removed rather quickly.

I have pretty good quality .jpeg copies if anyone is interested in cullign them for info or assessing their authenticity.

Are these in Russian? If not, please email them to me. If so, can someone translate them into English or at least give us the general gist?

Cheers, Woody

 

[SOC]

Yeah, the documents are in Russian.

 

[flateric]

Have found 'em on the web about a week ago. Next day after posting on Russian forum, it was strongly recommended to me to remove links. Questioning why this should be a problem while they were readily available on the net, I got an answer that someone's stupidity in posting them doesn't mean that I should make everyone aware of it. Next day I got an e-mail from friend who knows what he talking about as he contracted by Gov., advising to remove links, so I did it.

 

[SOC]

That's interesting, and certainly makes one believe they're genuine.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Have you all heard about the Russian documents leaked onto the web describing a few T-50 aspects? Apparently the Russian government asked that they be removed rather quickly.

I have pretty good quality .jpeg copies if anyone is interested in cullign them for info or assessing their authenticity.

Why not just attach them to a post here.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

They are fairly mundane and don't shed much light on anything of interest, IMHO.

 

[Gavin]

They are fairly mundane and don't shed much light on anything of interest, IMHO.

They might be very interesting to anyone with enough technical knowledge to read between the lines. For example, even something as tedious as canopy specifications might reveal a lot about an aircraft to someone with experience in canopy design. But you're right, for the purposes of a forum like this one, the "leaked" documents don't shed much light.

Meanwhile, I'm surprised by how little discussion there has been about the "Popular Mechanics" article, and especially the CG model. It appears to be the most realistic depiction yet of the real PAK FA design, and yet people still prefer to talk about fanboy fantasies that look like Vulcan starships . . .

What can we glean from this image? Do the vertical tailfins appear to be all-moving? If you look closely at the air intake, the inner side doesn't seem to sit flush against the fuselage, suggesting that there really is "tunnel" between the inlets, like we've seen before. And the LERX comes about as far forward as it can without interfering with the pilots downward vision. Perhaps an earlier configuration had the LERX extend all the way to the nose itself?

Can someone critique the planform alignment? How man different angles can we see? How about an educated guess on the length and winspan?



The same? Or just similar?

 

[flateric]

and especially the CG model. It appears to be the most realistic depiction yet of the real PAK FA design, and yet people still prefer to talk about fanboy fantasies that look like Vulcan starships

well, Gavin, if you can describe me differences with NPO Saturn leaked image that has been discussed for several years already...

Paralay states that PM renderings made after model photo taken in Pogosyan cabinet (well, I'm insured that Mikhail Aslanovich has a hell lot of various T-50 models he can choose from to show to various people)

stay tuned - not so much time left to see the real birdy

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

from what i've read in the document, it contains the hypothetical dimensions of the cockpit(which is somewhat huge, but i dunno) and the phases of development. it also contains key requirements such as stealth and supercruising.

albeit, not much new information but they do confirm some.

 

[Gavin]

well, Gavin, if you can describe me differences with NPO Saturn leaked image that has been discussed for several years already...

To begin with, we have different angles that show different parts of the design, like the canopy for example. Look at the size of the pilot and his seat compared to the size of the canopy -- the PM renderings suggest a surprisingly spacious cockpit.

But mostly, I would say the PM renderings have much more realistic proportions -- the size of the wing and vertical tails, etc. -- and that should give us a better estimate of the T-50's size. And I would think the PM would also depict a more realistic planform alignment. The PM model and the NPO drawing are obviously depicting the same design, but the PM version looks much more accurate and professional, and I would hope we could learn something from it.

Anyway, I was just trying to say that I expected people -- people far more knowledgeable that myself, for sure! -- to be picking apart the images and squeezing out what little information could be taken from them.

 

[QuadroFX]

If someone for any reasons has not familiarised yet with discussed documents.
Here they: http://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?p=37444#p37444 http://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?p=37445#p37445

 

[flateric]

hmmm

 

[QuadroFX]

What's wrong :

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

First, it is no secret that the plane should take off in December. No problems with the engine, which will now be placed on the aircraft PAK FA, assembled in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, no.

Interview with Ilya Fedorov (Saturn)
http://www.aviaport.ru/news/2009/11/10/184778.html

Predicted date for first flight: 29th December.

 

[flanker]

Also, i read a rumor that PAK-FA was delivered to Zhukovsky. I know, this isn't a *fact* about PAK-FA, but if true, we might see pictures within weeks...

 

[flateric]

no, flight article is still at KNAAPO
load tests article in TsAGI since summer

no images will leak till the first flight
security is began to tighten around LII perimeter meantime

 

[flanker]

security is began to tighten around LII perimeter meantime

That is also what i have read. So i guess the rumor started due to security. Exciting times for sure anyway.

What engines is PAK-FA designed to be used with as full version? I don't mean article 117S. AL-41? Or a totally new engine?

PS: Seems the interview is removed.

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

they are gonna put a new engine on the final version. in the meantime, they'll be using the Al-41F for the scheduled flight tests this december

 

[flateric]

So i guess the rumor started due to security.

nope. first flight in december was officialy confirmed.

What engines is PAK-FA designed to be used with as full version? I don't mean article 117S. AL-41? Or a totally new engine?

just 'new'

 

[flateric]

they'll be using the Al-41F for the scheduled flight tests this december

BS. T-50 prototypes will be using 'more advanced variant of Article 117S', but with other suffix than 'S' (c) Chepkin
Fnd forget of such engine - AL-41F.
AL-41F-1S (117S) is quite different beast from AL-41F

 

[T-50]

I cant wait to see the son of Flanker fly!

 

[saintkatanalegacy]

i'm getting confused with their designations :-[

 

[flateric]

don't panic, even Saturn engineers are