Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part II [2008-2009]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Spring said:
I don't think the russians or the soviets are/were really impressed with the stealth technology, some obvious examples show that the original designers really don't trust in the stealthy concept..i can give you clearly examples about that, but don't really want to begin a polemic with the stealthy fandom.. i'm not saying that decreasing the RCS of an airplane is not important, just that the RCS values on the so called stealthy aircraft are not that impressive.
certainly, a radar cross section of 0.0001m2 is certainly not impressive at all. And the original Russian designs of the 80's didn't appreciate stealth? Back then, not even all of the USAF, and the biggest US fighter manufacturer at the time trust stealth yet.
That said, i don't expect the russians are designing a paralay (TM) concept :), nor that they will deploy low frequency radars on their fighters, they got a fine example of stealthy design , the F-117 downed over Serbia, being the nighthawk the only real truly stealthy design..i know some here will say is a generation behind....but is not, not really, either way, neither phazotron, or tikhomirov were really impressed
yeb, the nighthawk is the only true stealth aircraft even though its rcs is at least 10 times, if not 20 times greater than the f-22. And certainly f-22's stealth is not impressive even though its stealth is the main reason why it can mass kill its enemies in practice, and sometimes even at within visual range, as noted by Australian pilot. Certainly they are not impressed when the recent variants of su-27 and mig-35 incorporate RCS reduction. Certainly they are not impressed with VLO when they are applying LO ???. And certainly the f-117 downing is the same reason why we move back from driving cars to bike because of that one car accident we see.

With that said, my only worry is not that Russian cannot produce stealth, but that practical stealth for mass production. It takes the US decades to move from an expensive, delicate, maintenance disaster f-117 to the f-22. And even f-22's stealth maintenance is a failure of original expectation. I'll be interested to see how the Russian approach this problem. Stealth is a necessary must to any sane mind. If the PAK FA does not incorporate all-aspect VLO, than it's certain the reason is that it is deemed UNAFFORDABLE, not UNECCESSARY.
 
lantinian said:
In the years preceding the unveiling of the MiG 1.42 Prototype, I remember reading a lot of comments like the ones from our forum member T-50. I also remember seeing various types of western artist depictions of the supposed looks of the new Russian fighter. Surprisingly they were all spot on.

Looking back, If I had to compare the ability of the US and Russia to keep secretly developed aircraft configuration secret to the general public given the past examples such as F-117, ATF, MiG-1.42 and SU-47, it is a very safe assumption that the PAKFA configuration will be anything but surprise to journalists, let alone military experts.

Some of the drawings matched some design studies, yes.

But, that is a long way from the most popular/reproduced drawings remotely matching the actual prototypes.

Now, I'm not saying the the PAK-FA won't be an F-22 with a modified nose and rear-hemisphere radar, but your comment doesn't fit (my) experience.

I mean, for crying out loud: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,275.0.html
 
donnage99, aside the nice and fantastic claims about the F-22 -don't get me wrong, i just really don't trust on them-

Did any main russian/soviet radar designer change it technology to detect the so-called stealthy aircraft?, no, not really

What one would have expected first, from the soviets/russians, after the "VLO" concepts were revealed, is a substancial change on their radar technology, not another stealthy aircraft, did that happen? no...not even when they got the F-117, there is a reason for that , no, is not lack of money, technology, knowledge or whatsoever nice trolling is -not from you, just the trolling from other high ranked personalities ;) -, but, again, is not worth to discuss here.

About the costs and related dificulties of a stealthy program, well that is another topic, there are teams that have reached similar results with out the huge stunk works budget/investment/infrestucture -cough...lampyridae..cough-

Certainly they are not impressed with VLO when they are applying LO Huh?. And certainly the f-117 downing is the same reason why we move back from driving cars to bike because of that one car accident we see

Well, the average joe don't realise that, actually, the technology did move back, but it was not because the Nighthawk downed
 
Spring said:
donnage99, aside the nice and fantastic claims about the F-22 -don't get me wrong, i just really don't trust on them-

Did any main russian/soviet radar designer change it technology to detect the so-called stealthy aircraft?, no, not really

What one would have expected first, from the soviets/russians, after the "VLO" concepts were revealed, is a substancial change on their radar technology, not another stealthy aircraft, did that happen? no...not even when they got the F-117, there is a reason for that , no, is not lack of money, technology, knowledge or whatsoever nice trolling is -not from you, just the trolling from other high ranked personalities ;) -, but, again, is not worth to discuss here.
And change what, exactly? "oh, guys, that's stealth coming from the enemy, we should go back and change our radars from scratch, making a new magical evolution in radar technology. Yeah! let's just do it! No problem, right?"

And wouldn't the push in infared sensor, the brand new Irbis-E claim to detect .01m2 at 90 km be enough for your evidence. But then, of course, none of these are truly the evidence, since the real truth is hidden somewhere that only you know, though of course, is not worth discussing. ::)
About the costs and related dificulties of a stealthy program, well that is another topic, there are teams that have reached similar results with out the huge stunk works budget/investment/infrestucture -cough...lampyridae..cough-
Am I seriously hearing this?

Well, the average joe don't realise that, actually, the technology did move back, but it was not because the Nighthawk downed
yeb, certainly it moved back. But then an average joe like me wouldn't know, since such underground information is only available to the few selected like yourself. However, you don't have the time, or maybe you aren't allowed say the things you know to counter my points in a logical way, so the only thing you can do right now is just talking in mysterious words.
 
PLEASE do not let this forum descend into this kind of idiotic fanboy argument.
 
I'm sorry that I got a little out of control. However, I'm an aviation enthusiast like many others here, so I really do appreciate the genius and hardwork put into an airframe, whether it's russian, british, or us, etc. thus, I find this phrase "just the trolling from other high ranked personalities" extremely offensive when it has no factual evidence to back it up. The blood and sweat of thousands of people put into the ATF program that spanned over 2 decades, just so the fruits of their labor are dubbed "trolling" so someone can feel good sounding intellectual.
 
I have been told that this rendering, posted at Key forums, is the most accurate depiction of the actual PAK FA design. Time will tell.
 

Attachments

  • pak_fa.jpg
    pak_fa.jpg
    284.4 KB · Views: 282
Seems we've now come full circle, back to the configuration shown in the TsNII RCS simulation.
 
bowless canopy? not the case with T-50 as confirmed

Flexo's drawing with some precious advices from Pavel Bulat and Lsnderick

well, guys, we have 26-page saga here with that stuff http://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=288&start=450&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
 
who has confirmed? Mr Pogosan him self? I must the first official document see that confirms it!
we will see on the real thing of the T-50 has a bowless bubble canopy or not.
T-50
 
With that said, my only worry is not that Russian cannot produce stealth, but that practical stealth for mass production. It takes the US decades to move from an expensive, delicate, maintenance disaster f-117 to the f-22.

I strongly second that.

Stealth is more than just understanding of technology. Its actually a very complex manufacturing process to execute. I do not doubt for a second that the Russians, given enough funds can replicate the US success in that area. But to think, that under the greatest economic problems that country has had over its existence for almost 100 years, they have somehow incorporated an R&D effort by the US in the billions and over many years is just plain kidding yourself.

Looking at the few pictures from Russian aircraft factories...well they look like the US one all right, but from the 70's. The country does not have a automobile industry comparable to France and Germany and some here suggest they are actually building a stealth fighter that requires great manufacturing precision? Give me a break.

Trying out the shortcut way proved they did not have the resourced and time to follow catch up with the US. The shortcut you ask? The damm stealthy plasma generators. Supposedly a 100kg equipment that makes any design stealthy. Sounds nice at fight until you think about it for more than 1 minute.

Anyway, the Artist renderings shown in this tread lately look great and in my opinion are on the money. Looks just evolutionary enough from the SU-27 so they might put it in actual production.

Will it equal the F-35 an F-22. Well, performance for sure. Right in between the two. Sensor fusion and stealth? I don't think they will do better than the Europeans with Rafale and Typhoon on those issues.
 
lantinian said:
Sensor fusion and stealth? I don't think they will do better than the Europeans with Rafale and Typhoon on those issues.

If they, as seems likely from what we've seen of other Russian projects, go for internal weapons bays and extensive planform alignment I don't see how they could fail to do better than Rafale or Typhoon as far as RCS is concerned. Other than that, I can't think of a signature reduction measure on the Eurocanards that Russia has not already demonstrated as well (i.e. coated canopies, curved inlet ducts, RAM).

Realistically, that's the benefit of the PAK-FA arriving on the scene 10+ years later.
 
Did any main russian/soviet radar designer change it technology to detect the so-called stealthy aircraft?, no, not really

What one would have expected first, from the soviets/russians, after the "VLO" concepts were revealed, is a substancial change on their radar technology, not another stealthy aircraft, did that happen? no...not even when they got the F-117, there is a reason for that , no, is not lack of money, technology, knowledge or whatsoever nice trolling is -not from you, just the trolling from other high ranked personalities

Are you suggesting that a fighter is more difficult to detect that a bomber because of its size? Are you suggesting that stealth does not work or it has no relevance? I hope not.

What most people fail to acknowledge is that since 1930s there have been a lot more money and efforts put into radar technology than stealth. That was until the 70's. So much so that we have started to take the ability to detect something for granted. The truth is that if absolute technological balance had to exist on the battlefield, all sensors would have had similar ranges. The radar would see as far as our eyes can see. We are starting to see a balance now.

Its not that Radars don't work on stealth aircraft. No one said that. It's just they their range is reduced.

Same thing happen when firearms hit the battlefield. For many centuries, it was believed that body armor had become irrelevant, until you look at the gear of a fully loaded marine patrolling in Iraq. And they have just started to scratch the surface in that area.

Missiles. Some have started to take for granted how missile will become super effective and fighter will not need to maneuver any more to launch them, and decoys will no longer work. Well, missiles will be in for a big surprise in the next 10 years. Defeating an incoming missile will never be easier for fighters such as the F-35.

My point. There is no easy counter to stealth. Stealth is the counter to radar and other sensors. One that was long overdue. And PAK-FA will be scratching the surface there
 
If they, as seems likely from what we've seen of other Russian projects, go for internal weapons bays and extensive planform alignment I don't see how they could fail to do better than Rafale or Typhoon as far as RCS is concerned.
You are right. However, its only a matter of time before we see a Silent Rafare or Typhonn offerings ;). I was however speaking more broadly and was thinking of some recent stealth UAVs from Germany and France.
 
The BIG IF here is finance. Now that Russians has seen the geometries of the F117, Tacit Blue, B2, YF 23, Yf 22, F 22, X32, X35, X45, X47 amongst others and has access to commercial high power computing technology, simulating and validating RCS shapes by modelling as the U.S does should be possible.

As regards manufacturing, yes, most Russian tolerances are laughable but again, Russian can just as it has done with computing, source the best commercial machinery. Look at what the Chinese did to the Flanker in finish and the latest Venezuelan Flankers for what China and Russia can do with proper machinery. Now this is irrelevant since surface finish is defined by composites as verified successfully in terms of modelling on the Su 47. So the finish argument flies out the window.

RAS, RAM etc are all composite derived, an area the Russians have had some success in.

Finally the Russians come at the problem 20 years later almost than the ATF. Alot of the 20 billion or so (Congress cap at 178 jets because 40 billion cap implies this R&D) was to develop basic technologies now commercial standards (Gallium Arsenide chips for phased arrays now used in cells, computing simulation, distributed databasing, RCS prediction, shape experimentation, composite applicatiojn now commonplace) so the Russians have it alot easier than we think compared to the U.S in 86 with basic computing being tasked to develop an agile F 117 signature aircraft with active array radar and distributed architecture.
 
I would be very surprised to see PAK-FA with 2D nozzles or without active ECM.
 
As I can remember the biggest chunk (~40%) of the 5th generation fighter price is neither stealth, nor its super-cruising engines. It is the open architecture approach and integration of powerful avionics and LPI sensors. We are talking not only about advanced sensors but a hell of a lot of software to make the Sensor Fusion magic work. And hardware too, like the F-22 radome which is made of a material in such a way as to let trough only its AESA operating frequency.

So far, PAK-FA is confirmed to have the only the AESA covered in terms of hardware. With Russia offering western avionics for its fighters, one can only conclude that electronics are not their strength. So no Sensor fusion for PAK-FA, just more powerful sensors, active jamming equipment. 5th generation components but no sign of 5th generation integration.

The latest pictures of a SU-35 show a whole new type of small antennas sticking out from everywhere. This isn't a trend in the right direction.
 
lantinian said:
The country does not have a automobile industry comparable to France and Germany and some here suggest they are actually building a stealth fighter that requires great manufacturing precision? Give me a break.

I have to respectfully strongly disagree on this point.

Tell me, who had better cars in 80's, Russians or Americans? At same time, Russians were able to make great planes, that could without doubt be compared, and even outperformed the aircrafts from USA. Those two industries are totally different from each other, and should not be compared. And it is no secret that top priority was to make good weapons, rather good cars in Soviet. Not very different still really, even if the state have a lot less control over prioritys.
 
Tell me, who had better cars in 80's, Russians or Americans? At same time, Russians were able to make great planes, that could without doubt be compared, and even outperformed the aircrafts from USA.
The 80's were pretty even...on a frontline level.
But a true fifth generation aircraft requires a whole new industry around it. I don't see the Russians to have the resources to make that leap themselves. There are too many pieces missing from the table for the PAK-FA to be considered equal to F-35 and god forbid the F-22.

I hope the indians continue to help with the project, otherwise it will be one very long wait for the first pictures.
 
I remember a magazine article from the mid '80s, don't recall the magazine, but it basically said that between the Soviets & USA that the Sovs weren't concerned about stealth, as they would have so many numbers of a/c, they didn't care whether they were seen coming or not, as in quantity over quality (i.e. stealth).



lantinian said:
With that said, my only worry is not that Russian cannot produce stealth, but that practical stealth for mass production. It takes the US decades to move from an expensive, delicate, maintenance disaster f-117 to the f-22.

I strongly second that.

Stealth is more than just understanding of technology. Its actually a very complex manufacturing process to execute. I do not doubt for a second that the Russians, given enough funds can replicate the US success in that area. But to think, that under the greatest economic problems that country has had over its existence for almost 100 years, they have somehow incorporated an R&D effort by the US in the billions and over many years is just plain kidding yourself.

Looking at the few pictures from Russian aircraft factories...well they look like the US one all right, but from the 70's. The country does not have a automobile industry comparable to France and Germany and some here suggest they are actually building a stealth fighter that requires great manufacturing precision? Give me a break.

Trying out the shortcut way proved they did not have the resourced and time to follow catch up with the US. The shortcut you ask? The damm stealthy plasma generators. Supposedly a 100kg equipment that makes any design stealthy. Sounds nice at fight until you think about it for more than 1 minute.

Anyway, the Artist renderings shown in this tread lately look great and in my opinion are on the money. Looks just evolutionary enough from the SU-27 so they might put it in actual production.

Will it equal the F-35 an F-22. Well, performance for sure. Right in between the two. Sensor fusion and stealth? I don't think they will do better than the Europeans with Rafale and Typhoon on those issues.
 
which is back to my original post: back in the 80's, not even the majority of the US military itself trust stealth, and same thing with its biggest fighter manufacturer.

As for the current debate, the one challenge that the PAK-FA has to face, that the f-22 didn't have to face as much, which is affordability of the f-35. If the PAK-FA gonna come out with the 135 million dollars price tag, it's a failed project, since Russia and India wouldn't be able to afford it in sufficient numbers. In fact, their aim is to create an aircraft with f-22 like capabilities with.....f-35 affordability.

So how will they make it affordable? The multi-national f-35 jsf program teaches us that there are 4 ways:

1) an extremely expedient and innovative manufacturing process, which requires the highest standard of the industrial base. Russia simply doesn't have this right, period. And it's not a certain technology that you can jump leap, it's a progress on a gigantic scale that span across the country with interconnection roots on an international level that needs to be built and improved over decades. Russia is still mostly 2 decades short of this. And even that, comparing to the f-35 program now is obsolete. There's no ground for argument, here. The important thing for Russia right now, is to replace its obsolete equipments, with state of the art ones, and rebuild a robust, top of the line manufacturing process. If you want to build 5th generation fighter, you also need equipment of the same technological standard to support it and make it affordable.

2) multi-national involvements and early orders on the large scale: the JSF, to be affordable, has 9+ countries' commitments and planned orders of at least 3000 jets by 2035. Early commitments for ordering greatly reduces cost. It's simply the relationship between clients and contractors. Russia only has India, and they certainly don't plan to buy up to 3000 jets. Maybe, once the PAK-FA have moved past the prototype/ technology demonstrator phrase, it will have draw in more commitments from other countries as well. However, who are there strong enough (economic wise) to bring a significant commitments beside.... China, which already shown no interest even though Russia already made their offer. Hopefully china will change its mind when the prototype shows up.

3) Off the shelf tech and experience: the understanding and experienced gained during the ATF program, not just in term of technology, but also manufacturing progress and program management, are tremendous. And the JSF take use of it. Lockheed, the lead team, already have the experience of building a 5th generation aircraft. And both Lockheed and Northrop, north american BAE already have enormous stealth and avionics, integration experience (not just RCS wise, but all-aspect stealth, the whole package) building operational aircraft.

4) scaled down capabilities: this is pretty simple, no need to explain. You want it cheap, you gonna have to settle with something less.

With these points, it's almost fantasy to believe that the PAK-FA will be f-35-like affordable while having f-22-like capabilities, especially when its design falls into a lighter class than f-22 (probably to save up cost). Logic dictates that it certainly doesn't meet the f-35 affordability while trying to achieving f-22 performance (and no, I'm not talking about airshow performance).
 
as in quantity over quality

That term is sometimes taken in a very lighty way, don't get me wrong , but then the russians should have kept their cheap "anti-stealth" ;D SA-3 systems, instead the SA-20/10/12

I will not reply to the supossed bad tolerances, useless electronics of the poor and broken russians...

The rise of the electronic/avionics costs did start from the 80s, not sure if it was a market issue or a real technologic issue
 
Spring said:
as in quantity over quality

That term is sometimes taken in a very lighty way, don't get me wrong , but then the russians should have kept their cheap "anti-stealth" ;D SA-3 systems, instead the SA-20/10/12
There's nothing such as an anti-stealth SA-3 system. The hawk was brought down with excellence in tactics, combining with NATO restrictions for its aircraft flight paths, and f-117 rumored lack of a defense system. Secondly, stealth is a continuous progress as well as the ways to counter it. Simplification of the whole progress into a package, as well as its countermeasure is at best a childish analysis.
I will not reply to the supossed bad tolerances, useless electronics of the poor and broken russians...
Maybe I misunderstand your point, here, but do you mean that you don't reply to these opinions because it's too absurd or you mean that you agreed with them and have nothing to add in? Please, elaborate!
 
Russia has a new partner in the production of fifth generation fighter


In Russia, you may receive a new partner in the fifth-generation fighter, the first flight scheduled for 2009. April 7, the deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Alexander Fomin reported that negotiations for the exchange of technologies and creation of platforms for the assembly and the licensed production of aircraft maintained to the Brazilian company Embraer - the largest aircraft manufacturing corporation the Latin American region.Often, it put on a par with global industry leaders - Lockheed Martin and Boeing. Earlier, an agreement on joint work on the fighter had been reached with India, although the Russian-Indian aircraft to rise into the air much later than the national.

The new Russian fighter, which was the symbol of the PAC FA (promising aviation complex tactical aviation), recently much talk and write, but it is still largely classified.On the Internet you can find many illustrations, which depicted a perspective image of the plane, but in fact it is impossible to say which of them is closer to the truth.Some of the images provided for the PAC FA, much like the American F-22 Raptor, and seemed to be outside the American fighter and his Russian rival in reality may be much in common.

The works on advanced fifth-generation fighter aircraft, designed to provide a counterbalance to the American F-22 and replace the MiG-29 and Su-27, were in the USSR back in 1980. Initially, as claimed in the press, they were involved in design offices Mikoyan, Yakovlev and Sukhoi.In the Mikoyan Design Bureau has developed a so-called draft MiG 1.44 (Item 1.44, or Flatpack to NATO classification) with the use of stealth technology. First flight of fighter aircraft was held in 2000 in the town of Zhukovsky near Moscow. But this event, to the surprise of many, remained almost unnoticed.

Earlier in the Sukhoi Design Bureau has developed an experimental multipurpose fighter Su-47 (C-37) Berkut "(Firkin by NATO classification), which was built in a single copy and for the first time off in 1997. In creating this aircraft were used composite materials, as well as the technology wing of the reverse sweep, which, as the experts, improves manageability and low flying at low speeds. The world's first airplane, the design of which was used a similar technique, a German bomber Junkers Ju-287, created at the very end of the Second World War. Development of this project for obvious reasons, never received.

In 2002, as head of the company promising Russian fighter PAK FA (or T-50) was also selected Sukhoi Design Bureau, and in 2004, according to official information the company "Dry" Air Force Russia presented a draft sketch plane. However, as they say, technology wing forwardswept during its creation are no longer used, but the aircraft apparently reminded of "Berkut", built in single copy, as an American Raptor. Nevertheless, some technologies Su-47 and MiG 1.44, with its design is still used.

On the characteristics of the mysterious plane of national development is little. At the PAC FA is said to have established a new powerful engines with thrust vectoring reject the horizontal and vertical planes. In 2005, Saturn was passed at the first five tests of experimental samples, developed in conjunction with the Ufa motor complex.

Originally they were a symbol "Item 117A, and later - the AL-41F-1 (previous modification was designed more for the MiG 1.42 - the prototype of the MiG 1.44).". According to the director of NPO Saturn "Yuri Swallow involved in test flights of fighter aircraft with new engines" have shown a qualitatively new results and achieved the unique characteristics. "

Fighter, according to the press, will be able to bear arms as the suspension of external sites, and in the interior. At the end of February 2009 is indirectly confirmed the Head of the department of an Air Force Engineering Academy named after Professor Zhukovskii Colonel Sergei Khripunov, reported that the Russian fifth generation fighter PAK FA use of physical force for the suspension of arms in some cases be impossible, because the point of suspension is in gruzootseke. To do this, he said, need not mechanized and robotic tools.

About PAK FA is also arming know a little bit.But, as argued he should get a new generation of missile air-to-air missiles, which, according to some reports, would be square in cross section to reduce the size of internal compartments, as well as air-to-surface, anti-tank missiles and bombs adjusted.

To engage aerial targets at a new Russian fighter can apply the new super-range missiles KC-172, developed by OKB "Innovator." Their intended range of up to 400 kilometers. Among the other weapons might be used missiles air-to-air medium-range R-77 (similar to the American AIM-120 AMRAAM), as well as short-range type R-73 The developer of the weapons is the Russian GosMKB Vympel.

PAK FA must also get on-board phased-array radar grid, developed by the Research Institute of Instrument name Tihomirova.According to experts, it does not yield to the radar AN/APG-77, set on the American F-22 fighter. In addition, the Russian plane could be fitted optical-electronic sensors French company Thales. They will perform a variety of combat missions, not including the radar.The control system will be fully computerized.

A distinctive feature of the plane, characteristic of the fifth generation fighter aircraft, should be nearly invisible. For this purpose, in particular, can absorb radio waves used materials, as well as smaller vertical feathers.However, detailed information about the stealth technologies that are used in the production of the aircraft, there is also no. But, according to some sources, they significantly increase the cost of fighter aircraft.As alleged in the press, the price of one machine can be up to 70-80 million dollars. This is substantially more than the current value of Russian combat aircraft, but almost half the price of an American F-22.

According to recent statements by Russia Air Force Commander Colonel-General Alexander Zelina, hopes the first flight of military aircraft Russia could take place in summer 2009, although earlier the military had intended to raise the aircraft in the sky in 2007.Nevertheless, for many, and this prospect is doubtful.Experimental designs fifth generation fighter is still based on "Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation production merger of Gagarin (KnAAPO), which is part of the company" Dry ". At what stage is work - hard to say.

With this plant, by the way, linked the recent scandal vylivshiysya from the local to federal level.According to the representative trade union KnAAPO Arslanova Paul, at the beginning of March 2009 at the company received notice of the reduction of the team, but since last year at the plant develops a conflict caused by the frustration of working-paid.At KnAAPO produce aircraft Su-30MK2, Su-30MK, Su-27SMK and prototypes of multifunctional fighter generation "4 + +" Su-35, but the most important objective for the plant is now considered the establishment of the first samples of PAK FA.

It is difficult to assume, will affect whether the conflict in the project, but some media outlets have already concluded that because of internal divisions in the company, it may stalled.But apparently, if it happens, it is quite different reasons.

In the creation of new models of military aircraft technology Moscow is not the first year of seeking its allies. Several years ago, as they say, the relevant negotiations with China, but to implement these plans, it never came. However, Beijing is already working on such a fighter, which is taken as the basis of a sample of national production.Many experts wonder who this time the Chinese pozaimstvuyut technology, doubting that the design of the fighter would represent something fundamentally new.

The final agreement on cooperation in the production of new combat aircraft Russia has succeeded only in India.New Delhi, as experience shows, is an old and reliable partner of Moscow in the sphere of military-technical cooperation.Moreover, unlike China, Russia has not yet had occasion to accuse the Indians in the open theft of technology.

Negotiations with India on joint establishment of the aircraft were in 2007. In the near future, the military of both countries will agree on the requirements of the project. But already know that the Russian Air Force plans to adopt a single version of the aircraft, Air India and expect to double fighter, because, according to military doctrine, he must fulfill a broader range of tasks.It was expected that the first aircraft will be handed over to customers in 2017, while the purely Russian fighter are planning to adopt a little bit earlier - in the years 2012-2015.

The main partner of "Sukhoi" in this project will be Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) - India's largest aircraft manufacturing company, working for the Ministry of Defense.HAL previously worked closely with other defense companies, including MiG and Sukhoi. " The company has 19 manufacturing and 9 research centers in different regions of India. In the 2008/2009 fiscal year which ended March 31, HAL was able to sell their products at 2.05 billion dollars.

What specifically would be such a cooperation with the Brazilian company Embraer, if the agreement will be reached, yet it is not clear.Perhaps it is a licensed assembly of Russian aircraft, or establishing a new base for its modification. In the meantime, know that in April 2008, Russia and Brazil have signed an agreement on joint development of fifth generation fighter aircraft and space launch vehicle for the withdrawal of heavy satellites into orbit. But then the more detailed information on this subject was not.

In its field Embraer is a well-known and credible producer, while building a very specific examples of aircraft for military use, as well as regular passenger planes. In particular, the company was known for training and combat aircraft Tucano and Super Tucano_Older changed EMB 312 Tucano is produced since the early 1980's and shipped to many foreign customers, mostly - Latin American and African. But this plane is also chosen as a trainer, the Air Force in France.

A new modification of the machine EMB 314 Super Tucano was presented in 2003 and also started to gain popularity.Interestingly, of the intention to lease these cars recently announced leadership the United States Navy. The American military expects that the Super Tucano will be used to support special forces carrying out combat tasks in irregular conflict.

Paradoxically, the - United States, having in fact the most powerful aviation industry in the world, found a modest Brazilian car more suitable for such specific tasks, rather than their own contemporary designs.Military note that the Super Tucano can land and take off on unprepared terrain, and perezapravka machine does not take much time.

For the Brazilian aircraft manufacturing company to develop a new Russian fighter can become not only a source of income, but also a matter of prestige.While achieving Embraer has already been recognized - according to experts, the Brazilian company now ranks third in the world among manufacturers of commercial planes behind Airbus and Boeing.

Russia, this cooperation is theoretically could also be on hand, although the motives that led the producers to negotiate with the Brazilian side, yet not quite clear.It is possible that Moscow intends to boost its own military rearmament by the use of overseas production facilities. But, perhaps, an attempt to draw the Brazilians in the project is also linked to export plans and the desire to reduce the cost of the project.

Source: news agency "Lenta.Ru"
Author: Andrei Fyodorov
Published: 08.04.2009
 
I dared to post it on paralay's forum, dared also to post it here. What do you think? ;D
 

Attachments

  • pak-fa and f-16 falcon 21.jpg
    pak-fa and f-16 falcon 21.jpg
    42 KB · Views: 266
intoxicated said:
I dared to post it on paralay's forum, dared also to post it here. What do you think? ;D
11 internal missiles :eek: I think it's ridiculous. Having 11 internal missiles (and not just small ones) just so your airplane fall out of the sky halfway due to lack of fuel is certainly not desirable the least ;D.
 
intoxicated said:
I dared to post it on paralay's forum, dared also to post it here. What do you think? ;D

I'd remove all control surfaces from the R-73 (it will be replaced with a new weapon) and I'd change the Amraamski to an R-77 derivative (or a missile with only the rear conventional control surfaces). The large missiles are supposed to be R-37 (as opposed to KS-172), right? After that, I have no idea what to think - at least until the aircraft enters production (and the facts come out) ;)

I might remove the Auxiliary weapon bays (or reduce them to have single R-73 successor missiles and make them adjacent to one of the main bays) - just a feeling I have.
 
somebody talked about 135 million apiece.
India is very very unlikely to sign up for even the F-22 at that price given our requirements. we must also remember that India is always keener on jets ( I mean the Ministry and not the AF) that can fly of a flattop . ( yeah fly navy , if you like) .

and since there is no credible VLO for a saline environment , we are not likely to waste our money buying wunderbar weapons listed in glossy brochures.

The PAK-FA from the Indian perspective should be something that will not only be in conformity with the AF air superiority doctrine ( i.e a two seater) but be maintainable and serviceable ( industrial capability for production has to be a given) without a severe degradation of putative combat capabilities over a period of time.

Plus it clearly has to be multi-role. Now regardless of the SDB type weapons etc , history shows that it is nigh impossible to design a plane that is a master of all roles.

point being that the PAK-FA will have to be the best possible compromise for it to warrant serious Indian interest well into the next decade.

the number 200 is also flung around.
 
Flateric do you have any idea or information about did the assembly of the first prototype finish? Do you think did they start static tests or ground tests?Thanks
 
If it will fly in august or in this year, in my opinion it's assembly must be finished and they must be started to the tests. But if it wont fly this year ı don't know!!!
 
Judging by photographs of the prototype available online, the T-50 will resemble the American F-22, a fact easily explained by similar parameters on their technical specifications. However, it is yet undecided whether the model will eventually be used as a prototype.

Article of nothing. What 'photographs of the prototype available online'? An idiot.
 
Probably it is referred to the photos (better to say video stills) of the wind tunnel model with the configuration close to the F-22 shape. It seems that someone is think about that this is the PAK FA :)
 
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20090421/121235891.html
By the late 1990s, it became apparent that existing fifth-generation fighter projects were becoming obsolete, that their production versions would be inferior to the brand new American F-22 Raptor air superiority fighter, and that even if finalized the air force would receive such warplanes a decade too late.

Now that is some information you do not hear every day from a russian source.
 
In Lipetsk aviatsentre open hangar to service the new generation of aircraft


Hangar, for maintenance of 4 + generation aircraft, including Su-34, and in the future, and 5-generation aircraft, will be put into operation on 24 April in the Lipetsk aviatsentre.

According to the agency "Lipetsk-Info" Assistant Chief aviatsentra Vladimir Kahlenko, a hangar built at the expense of Charitable Fund of St. Nicholas. "

"This is a frame construction insulated with arch-type concrete floor, where the conditions of constant temperature and humidity can be carried out by the technical work of any complexity, such as the replacement aircraft engine, as well as the checking of all aircraft systems, while connecting elektrogidropitanii. Our airfield - the only aircraft in front Air Force, which has such a construction ", - told the agency interlocutor.

At the opening ceremony of the hangar will be attended by representatives of regional and municipal authorities, the leaders of the charitable fund, the clergy and the Lipetsk Eletskii sanctify the new diocese.

Source: Site «Lipetsk regional news», www.aviaport.ru
Published: 22.04.2009, 18:29
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom