Sukhoi PAK FA news and speculation (T-50, I-21) Part I [2006-2008]

[Avimimus]

Paralay, it is a pleasure to finally meet you.

Is the drawing yours? If so, what makes you so confident that the engines will be placed close together?

 

[rousseau]

"...А есть слухи что ПАК-ФА является по существу самолет поколения 5 с плюсом
С большой степени достоверности известно что:
- у него самый большой отсек для вооружения из всех стелсов (Ну B-2 явно не в счет
- Если его сравнивать с F-22 и YF-23 то он похож больше на YF-23 ))
Есть также слухи что имеет 360гр азимутальный обзор в X и L диапазоне, а также практически полный круговой ИК обзор. Только слухи ..."

"... And there are hearings that PAKFA the airplane of generation 5 with plus is in essence
From the big confidence figure it is known that:
- At it{him} the biggest bay for arms from all stealths.
- If it{him} to compare with F-22 and YF-23 that it{he} is similar more on YF-23.
There are also hearings that has 360гр the azimuthal review{view} in X and L a range, and also practically full circular IK the review{view}.
Only hearings... "

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1055.0;attach=25600

This is what an ugly one ;D drawing by paraly makes me down

The significant character of YF-23 is V tail and wide set engine cabin!

 

[paralay]

Solve a task and receive PAKFA!

PAKFA = (F-14 / F-4) * MiG-31
PAKFA = (F-14 / F-111A) * Su-33KUB

 

[lantinian]

Solve a task and receive PAKFA!
PAKFA = (F-14 / F-4) * MiG-31
PAKFA = (F-14 / F-111A) * Su-33KUB

Very Challenging! However, all I am getting is a 2 engine aircraft with a very high probability of a variable geometry wing and two side inlets. And did I mention a two seat cockpit and a carrier tailhook

Anyway, if the PAKFA ends up looking anywhere near the YF-23 it will take the second place from F-22 as my second favourite aircraft. :

 

[Berekhat]

Solve a task and receive PAKFA!

PAKFA = (F-14 / F-4) * MiG-31
PAKFA = (F-14 / F-111A) * Su-33KUB

Your inclusion of wildcards in terms that may be linked or independent is driving me nuts! I love it

Ok, lets take a stab. The picture makes the first one a 'looks like'. So, an F-14 with the wings of the phantom looks like a Mig-31. Thus, the PAKFA looks like the plane it is supposed to beat, with a wing planform from something else, I'm picking the Hornet. SO, just like your drawing, it's a twin engined, flat fuselage aircraft with LEREX and a more or less straight wing.

The second one is harder (Shakes fist at wildcard!). Well, I could approach it a few ways. I'll think out two.
Both the F-14 and the F-111 are swing wings, the Su-33KUB isn't, but it does have a lot of high lift devices on the wing. SO PAKFA has something interesting in it's wing construction to do with high lift.

OR

The F-14 used parts from other projects, and the F-111 WAS a part from another project, and Su-33 is a carrier aircraft from existing project without complete redesign. Thus PAKFA will use already existing avionics, perhaps all those juicy ones that were on sale until a few years ago, along with internal design from an already existing aircraft.

Too many variables, but a lot of fun speculating!

 

[paralay]

Good fellows!

I can continue the idea:

PAKFA = (Su-27 / Su-15) * MiG 1.42
PAKFA = (Su-27 / MiG-23) * S-37
PAKFA = (Su-34 / Su-24) * Su-27

The article on a theme of forecasting{prediction} in an aeronautical engineering, in Russian:
http://paralay.com/stat/prognoz.doc

And its{her} machine translation: http://ifolder.ru/4821794

 

[paralay]

8)

 

[lantinian]

Hmm,
Is is just me or Paralay has somehow smuggled every concept drawing of Pak-fa before the design was finalised.

Of course, these are your drawings. However, this site does have a fan art section, and it might me more appropriately to place all these personal designs there.

I just think that someone might get confused that this is an actual drawing of the real plane. At least the treads in this section are supposed to contain actual designs related to the project in question.

I would personally suggest that you (Paraley) explain at least what inspired you to draw this. Or what information did you use. I personally see too many YF-23 copywrite laws violated there. What is more, is it seams an vastly inferior design in terms of LO characteristics.

Anyway, Paralay keep posting you drawings. It's nice to see what you like doing, but please acknowledge their validity to the treat.

lantinian

 

[lantinian]

The article on a theme of forecasting{prediction} in an aeronautical engineering, in Russian:
http://paralay.com/stat/prognoz.doc

This looks like a great Article. And its one of those times when I hate how little Russian I can read. I got the overal impresion that at the end of the day, neither the PAC-FA, not the JSF-ski will go into production leaving the more conservatice Mig-1.27 a path for development.

Just some comments that topic, too.

I personally believe very strongly that the F-22 will always keep an edge against ANY designs ANYONE can AFFORD to produce. Why?
Answer: Software. Everything depends on it. Especially when it comes to integrated computer systems. If the ASEA radar can be made into a weapon just by some weighless program...

I agree that there are some designs out there that are Superior to F-22 in terms of performance resulting from the shape of the aircraft. YF-23 for one hand, and I do hope the Pak-Fa borrows ideas from it than the Raptor.

As for your JSF-ski pictures. There is no doubt, they look good ... like the ATF artist concepts from the early 80s. Remember the Grumman submition - even the vertical tails were forward swept. However, they do not look stealthy enough, and neither do the MiG-1.27 or MFI designs.

Bottom Line:
All aspect LO, Energy Weapons and Information Warfare will what any post 2010 design need to have in order to reach production. The SU-35BM is still too good an airplane compared to what's in service in other countries to justify building a new one.

 

[paralay]

«Unknown.jpg» – Vertical tail - ERROR! :-[

PAKFA = (S-37 + Su-27) / 2

 

[lantinian]

«Unknown.jpg» – Vertical tail - ERROR!
I knew it, I knew it. ;D

No offence Paralay

PAKFA = (S-37 + Su-27) / 2

Give us a hint!

 

[Avimimus]

I like the wider spaced engines and the reduced tail!

Although, the way I look at it, the NPO-Saturn leak with its delta, larger LERXes and deep but still blended fuselage seems most convincing.

Still, all of your designs all show a very balanced vertical cross section which seems quite plausible. I also have a strongly good feeling about the cranked two stage delta that you used on the single engined mig, I have a feeling it will reappear in some form (probably blended to carry fuel for a strike aircraft?

I assume that they have also considered pseudo flying wing designs. It would be really interesting to see what the Mig PAKFA contender was (not that we will see any pictures for a decade).

The way I look at it Paralay's drawings provide a focus for discussing design limitations and trade offs. If we want to only discuss press releases we can go to ACIG.org and if we want to banter more generally there is always keypublishing...

 

[rousseau]

The newest drawing of PAKFA is acceptable
Here is my suggestion for the picture.
1) The front view shows a CARET inlet but in upview, that inlet still is normal rectangle inlet
2) Since V tail is used, why vertical fin remained? oops Lantinain has already point out it
3) The gradient angle of V tail must same as the outboard of inlet for LO.
Of course, even without correct, your drawing still is great and the PAK_FA you drawn is very nice-looking!

 

[lantinian]

The Double Folding wings is interesting. Even the vertical tails fold.
However I am not sure what this configuration could be carrier based. The NAVI YF-23 was a canard design.
Besides, only India has one operational carrier. Admiral Kuznetsov has too many problems. And designing a aircraft so optimised for a carrier use might not be that practical.

I think the US navy should consider it, if they dropped the F-35C

Also, I do not think there will be missiles poited backwards. There is too much jamming from the aircraft's own engines.

 

[Trident]

The Double Folding wings is interesting. Even the vertical tails fold.
However I am not sure what this configuration could be carrier based. The NAVI YF-23 was a canard design.
Besides, only India has one operational carrier. Admiral Kuznetsov has too many problems. And designing a aircraft so optimised for a carrier use might not be that practical.

There are indications that Russia, at some point in the future, might start building new carriers. Not sure if the relatively large PAK-FA would be the right kind of aircraft, but it is something to consider.

Also, I do not think there will be missiles poited backwards. There is too much jamming from the aircraft's own engines.

Good point, but since they are carried internally the best solution would be to have a LOAL capability (like the Israeli Python V) anyway although that would require something more modern than the R-73 depicted here, of course. It shouldn't be too hard to make the missile clear the exhaust stream before looking for its assigned target then. With a really good new SRAAM & HMD I don't really see much of a point in firing them backwards from an agile launch platform, but technically there's no reason why it should be impossible.

 

[lantinian]

There are indications that Russia, at some point in the future, might start building new carriers.

I thought about that, then I though, what is more expensive, a new fighter or a new carrier? And then I though, how could they build a carrier if they can hardly afford the fighter? And that settled it for me.

. It shouldn't be too hard to make the missile clear the exhaust stream before looking for its assigned Target

I suppose, purely from a technical point of view it is a possible concept. But then, the missile will start off at a negative speed, loosing a lot of energy just to get moving backwards. I am not sure how much practical range can a missile have in this scenario if R-77 has about 5 miles when fires from the chasing aircraft at low altitude.

I just can't imagine someone to end up on the tail of an stealthy high performance aircraft like PAK-FA without it knowing about it. Wait! I know, its an F-22 that has run our of missiles and is trying to sneak for a gun kill.

 

[medal64]

They Will Equip Fifth Generation Fighter with Advanced Weapons System

Russia’s air force is counting on crating new examples of aircraft weapons for the fifth generation airplanes before 2025. “The new weapons for the fifth generation aviation complex will be created only under the conditions of the steady development of all the aviation armament,” the chief of the 30th air force Scientific Research Institute, Colonel Yuriy Balyko, thinks. In his opinion, the air force is supposed to “continue improving the strike and defensive potential of the Su-24 tactical bomber and Su-25 attack aircraft, equipping them with upgraded weapons examples,” before this stage. At the same time, “the infusion of multirole qualities to the fourth generation Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters possible with their rearming with air-to-surface and air-to-air guided missiles.

“The necessary potential of the airborne strategic nuclear forces over several years will be provided by extending the service periods of the strategic cruise missiles (SKR) in the inventory today,” the scientist is convinced. For providing the long-range aviation capability to carry out precision strikes in the rear area of continental theatres of military actions and in remote geographic regions in conventional war, in Balyko’s opinion, “work should be performed on rearming the long-range aviation airplanes with cruise missiles in conventional muntions, which are being created by reequipping the nuclear SKR which are being withdrawn from service, and with missiles that are being created based on major upgrade of the antisubmarine missiles that are in the inventory.”

As the first vice premier has repeatedly declared repeatedly, “Russia is lifting the fifth generation airplane into the air not later than 2009.” Today the director of the Sukhoy company confirmed his words, specifying that tests of the fifth generation multirole combat fighter being created in Russia are intended for 2009 and it is planned to start it into series production before 2015, ITAR-TASS reports.

Source: 06.12.07, Izvestiya

I think this news can help us about PAK-FA's future weapons.It won't use just today's missiles it will also carry next generation missiles in the future.

 

[Matej]

It won't use just today's missiles it will also carry next generation missiles in the future.

Ehm, is there all around the world any fighter (currently in production), that won't do the same?

 

[flateric]

Today the director of the Sukhoy company confirmed his words, specifying that tests of the fifth generation multirole combat fighter being created in Russia are intended for 2009...

Ugh...and today ex-SoD, now vice-premier Ivanov, who's bloody in charge of military stuff here, AGAIN says that 'he belives that the first flight will happen in 2010' They should come to damn agreement of which date to tell to the press here!

 

[medal64]

Ugh...and today ex-SoD, now vice-premier Ivanov, who's bloody in charge of military stuff here, AGAIN says that 'he belives that the first flight will happen in 2010' They should come to damn agreement of which date to tell to the press here!


Flateric can you give us any source for this news?

 

[flateric]

Aired on 19.12.2007 03:25 (GMT +3.00) at Vesti news channel

Text http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=152989
Video http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=116270&cid=7&doc_type=news&doc_id=152989
Photo http://www.vesti.ru/photo.html?id=152989

Q: - А истребитель пятого поколения, о разработке которого объявили совместно Россия и Индия, будет именно российско-индийским проектом, не существует ли опасности, скажем так, размывания российских технологических секретов?

A:- Не думаю, потому что, во-первых, подписано соглашение с Индией об охране интеллектуальной собственности, это, во-первых, а во-вторых, да, а во-вторых, работа над перспективными авиационными комплексами фронтовой авиации или, говоря гражданским языком, самолетом пятого поколения, ведется в России уже не в первый год. И я рассчитываю, что этот самолет, скорее всего в 2010 году, мы увидим в воздухе.

Q: -- A fifth-generation fighter, which Russia and India announced the cooperative development of, will it be exactly the Russian-Indian project, if there is no danger of, let's say, the erosion of Russian technological secrets?

A:-- I do not think so, because, firstly, we've signed an agreement with India of intellectual property, and secondly, so, and secondly, the work on the PAK-FA, or let's use civil term, the fifth-generation aircraft, continues in Russia not for the first year. And I hope that we will see this aircraft in the air likely in 2010.

 

[medal64]

This is a really disappointing news.I want to believe Russian Air Chief, Gen Alexander Zelin and Mikhail Pogosyan for the first flight of PAK-FA in 2009.I think they finish it at MAKS-2009.

 

[flateric]

Erm...never believe those blue-suits...Mikhailov, ex-, as I remember, promised first flight any date you choose, starting back in 2006...Even on the same day interview, for example, he said of 2008 with confidence - while OAK chief Fyodorov said 2009 as a likely date...and this was beginning of this year...

http://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2004/12/16/86434.html

"-- In 2007, our 5th generation aircraft will fly. Exactly of this date I've reported earlier to the CIC, and to date I have no doubt about possibility of completing this task. [...] Yet, in 2007 - the fifth year generation aircraft will fly. I've said so to Mihail Aslanovich Pogosyan. -"It is possible to have maiden flight and on December, 31, but - in 2007."

May 2004

 

[medal64]

You are right flateric but today they have more money for construction and there is an agreement with india for cooperation at 5th generation fighter and also as you know this aircraft must be finish in 2015 for the armament program.And they have started the work.Maybe you are right but ıf everything happens as before waiting this aircraft can be an hassle.

 

[flateric]

Delays were caused by efforts to improve aerodynamics and understand if avionics can be based on entirely own-produced component base. Aircraft went through at least 4 dramatic iterations since the end of 90s. They have enough money since the end of 2004, the task is pull everything to make a real beast, hurry apart. In fact, should we really hurry with that? Better to have a good fighter than a result of painstaking races to the date.

 

[medal64]

You know more important informations about the aircraft and we just want to see an increadable aircraft.

 

[medal64]

Flateric I would like to ask you a question.Will PAK-FA be similar of the berkut or will it have completely new design.What is your idea about it's design?

 

[flateric]

No idea, of course...I'm not directly affiliated neither with industry, nor military. All I can make are speculated guesses based on what I see, hear or read, based on logic principles of aircraft design that I was told. I have an impression, that what has leaked and has reliable sources (TzAGI placard, NPO Saturn CGI renderings, RCS test range images) are actual interim iterations studied at the earlier stages of the program. Take NPO Saturn ones - this one is NOT a result of another busy evening of Chinese 3D maniac. Most of us wonder of these tiny vertical tails, aren't we?

As one of our lecturers said, take a sheet of paper, fill it black and - among these million lines will be exact factory drawings of every secret aircraft ever built and unbuilt, and Death Star as well...

You can make your own impression, giving two-engined, four-poster single-seat aircraft with internal weapon carriage, optimized for LO and agility. It's really not such difficult task that was facing soviet military analysts trying to understand what the heck ATF will be. Surely Sukhoi will say farewell to FSW.

But, if you will read the Mikhailov's interview, you will note that he talks of completely NEW design. Frankly, in fact this means nothing because for this guy adding every additional letter to Su-27 family always meant 'completely new design' - it works good for publicity, and to the some extent, this is sometimes true.

 

[paralay]

I shall try to assume... :
Date of the first flight on April, 29th, 2010.
The airplane will be broken in the second flight on May, 8th or on May, 17th, 2010, failure in a control system.

 

[lantinian]

Paraley,

Can you please sum up the requirements the PAK-FA must fulfil.

Its easier to guess the shape of the design when you have exactly what it is supposed to do.

Also, what is Russia or India going to replace with the PAK-FA.

Thanks!

 

[medal64]

Date of the first flight on April, 29th, 2010.
The airplane will be broken in the second flight on May, 8th or on May, 17th, 2010, failure in a control system


Ridicilous scenerious maybe you hope but there won't be just one prototype ;D

 

[flateric]

Ridicilous scenerious maybe you hope but there won't be just one prototype ;D

At least two protorypes are in the rigs now.

Paralay, I always was wondering about your magic numbers system. Why shouldn't it crash on April, 13, for example? And why it should crash at all?

 

[paralay]

Shortly I shall put in order page about PAKFA on the site, there you can read through about it.
Russia by means of PAKFA will replace MiG-31 and Su-27, and India - Su-30.

PAKFA new implementation of soul F-14 …
F-14 has taken off 21.12.1970, has failed 30.12.1970. (day. Month. Year.)
Su-33KUB new implementation of soul F-111 …
F-111 has taken off 21.12.1964.
Su-33KUB has taken off 29.04.1999

21.12.1970 - 21.12.1964 = 6 years

Let's calculate probable dates of first flight PAKFA:
29041999+6 = 29042005, on April, 29th, 2005 - already passed.
29041999 + (6*1,5) = 29042008, on April, 29th, 2008 - it is not real.
29041999 + (6*1,75) = 29042009,5 it is approximated to April, 29th, 2010.
29041999 + (6*2) = 29042011, on April, 29th, 2011.

I choose 2010, Т-50 - a zero in number - year of the first flight 2010.
Su-27 - seven in number - the first flight 1977.
S-37 - seven in number - the first flight 1997.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Paralay, this kind of post isn't appropriate to the forum. Please don't make such posts in future.

 

[flateric]

OK, Madonna, that I have endless respect to, also has Kabbalah as a hobby...I only hope that Sukhoi designers don't use this method defining T-50 design...Erm...'Vladimir, go and take on the net wingspan and maiden flight dates of MDC air superiority fighters - we desperately need to calculate main gear well volume for our bird'

 

[lantinian]

Russia by means of PAKFA will replace MiG-31 and Su-27, and India - Su-30.

OK Seriously,
I think that Suchoi would not be pushing for a plan A (new fighter) and plan B (upgraded fighter) at the same time. I think that we are missing something.

I really do not see justification for the Russians to replace SU-27 before trying out a major operational upgrade first.
Besides, the SU-27 I far as I know are more updated than the MiG-29s and are generally more usefull to the airforce.
If there is any aircraft that needs replacing its the MiG-29. What a short range aircraft for such a big country.
I also don't see the MiG-31 being replaced. Its still a very capable airframe.

Second, India to replace SU-30 in 2015? They would have operated the type for less than 2 decades. I am not sure exactly what other types of aircraft are in the Indian airforce but I strongly believe the SU-30s are the newest and most capable ones. I would have personally brought them all to MKI status instead of replacing them. India has another competition that has the F-35 as a major player. I think the F-35 and the PAK-FA are both competing for the same job in the Indian Airforce right now. India has a great number of short range figthers that it needs replacing and they might be trying to play the US and the Russians to get them the best offer possible for a SINGLE engine 5th gen fighter. Or maybe they are not sure the F-35 will reach production and are playing safe.

Either way, it has become somewhat obvious to me that PAK-FA is a single engine design. I makes sense to compete with the F-35 (2000+ potentially build) more than with F-22 (183 build). The SU-35BM is an excellent aircraft on par with the Eurocanards. Why would any company be designing two products that will compete for the same markets?

But, if you will read the Mikhailov's interview, you will note that he talks of completely NEW

component base. Aircraft went through at least 4 dramatic iterations since the end of

what has leaked and has reliable sources (TzAGI placard, NPO Saturn CGI renderings, RCS test range images) are actual interim iterations studied at the earlier stages of the

If flateric is right, then those statements just support my theory that The PAK-FA design has departed significantly from the MFI, SU-47 and MiG-1.42 concepts once, then again from the F-22 like CGIs again and may be indeed a medium range single engine design

I think all this lack of funds has made the russians realist about what they can really afford to put in service to compete with the new western fighters. Why would you want to compete with F-22, if it cannot even be exported.

lantinian

 

[rousseau]

Overscan:

The data was set by Paralay is harmless, just in case it be true, then your forum will be top famous in all of aviation forum in this world

 

[paralay]

If PAKFA it will appear single-motor, I shall be glad!
But there is an information that wish to make tail part PAKFA as at Su-27, for installation of a radar of the back.

 

[lantinian]

I was going to ask if there is any recent hard evidence to suggest that PAK-FA has more than one engine.

But there is an information that wish to make tail part PAKFA as at Su-27, for installation of a radar of the back.

I see your point. A spike tail between the engines has enough room for a small radar, but they are other acceptable design solutions. Like the one on SU-47, with two smaller spikes. One for Radar and one for ECM (I think).

From what I understand, there are two engines in development. The AL-41F and the P-145. Both are big and powerfull engines. So, the possibility if an F-18 type of aircraft (Medium aircraft with 2 small engines) can be eliminated, leaving only a fairly big 2 engine design or a medium one with one engine.

I do not think Russia can afford the twin engine one.

Unless, I see some hard evidence to the contrary, I think PAK-FA might end up a middle size aircraft in the class of F-35. I also think, its shape will be less of a surprise to us than MiG-1.44 was.

If we make a parallel to the 80s where everybody was busy drawing the ATF or F-19, and at the end the F-117, YF-22 and YF-23 designs turned out to be complete surprises. This time the surprise might be the size, no the shape. I think Paralay has drawn every possible shape anyway, so I do not see how Suchoi can surprise us now.

 

[paralay]

The witness declares, that PAKFA is similar to this picture
Other witness speaks, that the tail part is not similar.
I think, that engines are placed widely, as at Su-27.