Strike Cruiser from the 80s

Maybe there were issues in developing the VLS for the USN?

Apart from the Submarines Ballistic launch tubes (I don't know if this could be considered VLS), The Soviets seems to be the first to field such a system?
The Slava class missile cruisers had eight 8 "cell" SA-N-6 Grumble SAM launchers or circular pods and the class was designed in around 1975 with the first ship hitting the water in 1979 and arriving in the navy in 1982 much before USS Bunker Hill's 1982/85/86 date.
Even the Udaloys beat the USN with VLS launchers having equipped with eight 8 "cell" SA-N-9 Gauntlet Launchers / Pods and designed around 1977 with the first ship hitting the water in 1980 and the fleet in 1981.

Or am I missing something?
 
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With any VLS update, we also have to take into account that VL-ASROC appeared somewhat later then the Mk 41 VLS. (operational in 1986, VLA in 1993) That means any ship that operated alone and needed to fire ASROC needed at least one Mk 26 launcher or the earlier Mk 112 launcher. If I recall correctly, there was at least one CSGN Mk 2 concept that had one 64 missile Mk 26 GMLS and an 64 cell Mk 41 VLS on board for that reason.

When the question of remounting Mk 41 for Mk 26 came up on shipbucket, the discussion came to the following points IIRC:
- The Mk 41 creates an much bigger hole in the strength deck then an Mk 26 does, requiring additional strengthening and weight.
- No Mk 26 ship was ever updated to an VLS ship. Not the Kidds, Ticos or the Virginias. The only ship that had both systems at some point was norton sound.
- The Spruances that already had tomahawk box launchers did not receive the VLS update (but there is only one Spruance that never received tomahawks)
- The sinkexed Spruances often broke just aft of the Mk 41, showing that the inclusion of the VLS did create a weak point. (Of course they did not break in service and the destruction of a ship by a weapon meant to do exactly that would have broken something, so they were strong enough but a weak point is a weak point)
- At least until ASROC was retired fully and/or SM-2 ERAM was developed, the only difference in what the Mk 26 and the Mk 41 could do functionally were the ability to fire tomahawk and the ability to fire faster. They fired a variant of ASROC, they fired SM-2MR. Aspects such as reliability and maintenance do have an impact but when the choice is between rebuilding a ship (adding cost and yard time) vs just maintaining the ship (manhours and parts while the ship is operational) means that the incentive to do such a rebuild is low. The alternative, just fitting the new system on new ships to avoid the rebuild cost and penalty while having all the advantages, is what was done in real life.

So probably, later CSGN's or CGN-42's would have been VLS ships if this had happened IRL. But I doubt the existing ones would be limited that much by their launchers.

That said, I do not agree that burkes are more heavily armed. 96 cells (for tomahawk, SM-2MR, VLA) + 8 harpoons vs 128 SM-2MR , ASROC + 8 tomahawk + 8 harpoons (Which was IIRC the loadout on most CSGN designs) seems superior, especially when you count the onboard helicopters as well. Later burkes (with helicopters and ESSM) might be another matter, but when looking at that, shouldn't we compare that to an VLS CSGN too? On CGN-42 you would be correct though.

As for the USN being late with VLS: the USN worked on VLS for a long time and likely could have made it work earlier if they went for just a single missile instead of an unified system for multiple missiles and with space for future growth and development. In 1980 there was some proposal for the fitting of the FFG-7s with an simple tomahawk launcher on the flight deck, drawn here for shipbucket: http://shipbucket.com/drawings/7365 . The CSGN Mk 2 proposal of 1977 also featured something that looks like the Mk 41, that too might have been fully dedicated to Tomahawk.
 
- No Mk 26 ship was ever updated to an VLS ship. Not the Kidds, Ticos or the Virginias. The only ship that had both systems at some point was norton sound.
Apparently the MK26 Ticos WERE looked at for VLS.

With the MK41 being SPECIFICALLY design to fit 64 shots in the same spot of a 44 shot MK26. Apparently the Version of the ASROC launcher the Spruances had was basically a MK26 with the pepperbox instead of the arms.

But, *Gestures at the Peace Divide* that happened and any hope was canceled with the money.

The Nukes boats just got screwed over similarly.

Like the Texas literally went from refueling straight to scrapping after she was finished. A fully updated zero time ship fresh out of dock, right into the scrapper torch.

That how bad it was.

So even if the CSGN got builts odds are they been fucked over in the same way.
 
Does anyone have deck plans for either the 1976 CSGN design or CGN-42? There are plenty of profiles, but no deck plans.
 
Maybe there were issues in developing the VLS for the USN?

Apart from the Submarines Ballistic launch tubes (I don't know if this could be considered VLS), The Soviets seems to be the first to field such a system?
The Slava class missile cruisers had eight 8 "cell" SA-N-6 Grumble SAM launchers or circular pods and the class was designed in around 1975 with the first ship hitting the water in 1979 and arriving in the navy in 1982 much before USS Bunker Hill's 1982/85/86 date.
Even the Udaloys beat the USN with VLS launchers having equipped with eight 8 "cell" SA-N-9 Gauntlet Launchers / Pods and designed around 1977 with the first ship hitting the water in 1980 and the fleet in 1981.

Or am I missing something?

A couple of factors:

Soviet VLS was not universal in the same way as Mk 41; those early vertical launchers were all dedicated to a single missile type.

SS-N-19 was basically a set of angled tubes, functionally the same as submarine launch tubes, just mounted below-decks.

SA-N-6 and SA-N-9 were functionally just mechanical launchers with the above-deck portion replaced by a cold-gas catapult ejector. They still had revolving magazines below-decks, eliminating the volume savings from the US-type VLS. They also didn't offer the big RoF advantage that the MK 41 did, partially because they were still rotating below decks and partially because Soviet fire control systems could not support higher RoFs. The Udaloys needed multiple Cross Sword designators for SA-N-9and most never got more than one (at least through the 1990s).

Official commissioning dates don't tell the whole story, either. On the Udaloys, for example, SA-N-9 wasn't even fitted in the first two ships, and the next few got only a portion of their intended guidance radars. Adm Zahkarov (commissioned 1984) was allegedly the first ship with an operational SA-N-9 but Russian sources [Archive.org link] suggest the whole system wasn't truly operational until 1989!

Mk 41 was slower to field, but it had the advantage of working from the get go, and being integrated with an already proven missile and combat system.
 
Apparently the MK26 Ticos WERE looked at for VLS.

With the MK41 being SPECIFICALLY design to fit 64 shots in the same spot of a 44 shot MK26. Apparently the Version of the ASROC launcher the Spruances had was basically a MK26 with the pepperbox instead of the arms.

But, *Gestures at the Peace Divide* that happened and any hope was canceled with the money.

I worked on the comms plan for Cruiser Conversion in the late 1990s, and it was a shitshow. A lot of it was budget, but there were plenty of technical problems too.

The later Ticos are not the same as the first five, structurally. And Mk 41 is denser than Mk 26, so while you can fit a 61/64-cell Mk 41 in the dimensions of a 44-round Mk 26, you can't do it with adequate reserve stability for a ship nearing the end of its planned service life, with all the weight gain that that implies.

The idea for Cruiser Conversion (or at least one of them) was for the five to serve as fire support ships, sort of precursors to the planned DD-21. They ultimately settled on 80 cells (48 forward, 32 aft, I think, but it might have been the other way around) as the most that could be fitted without destabilizing the ships. They also considered backfitting the new 5-inch/62 guns and even embarking Marine attack helicopters in lieu of Seahawks.
 
- No Mk 26 ship was ever updated to an VLS ship. Not the Kidds, Ticos or the Virginias. The only ship that had both systems at some point was norton sound.
Apparently the MK26 Ticos WERE looked at for VLS.

With the MK41 being SPECIFICALLY design to fit 64 shots in the same spot of a 44 shot MK26. Apparently the Version of the ASROC launcher the Spruances had was basically a MK26 with the pepperbox instead of the arms.

But, *Gestures at the Peace Divide* that happened and any hope was canceled with the money.

The Nukes boats just got screwed over similarly.

Like the Texas literally went from refueling straight to scrapping after she was finished. A fully updated zero time ship fresh out of dock, right into the scrapper torch.

That how bad it was.

So even if the CSGN got builts odds are they been fucked over in the same way.
While the 24 missile Mk 26 and the Mk 4 AWHS on the Spruance had the same total capacity (including the box) and took the same space, they worked in vastly different ways and had different internal layouts (which is also shown by the fact that the Mk 112 was sitting aft of the magazine on the Mk 4 AWHS while the launch arms on the Mk 26 are on the forward end). But yes, these systems were designed to fit the same space and Mk 41 was designed for the same space as the 44 missile Mk 26, but that can also easily be explained by it being designed not for refits but for fitting in the same designs (as Bunker Hill proved). That said, I do not remember anything about the tico's being looked at for VLS, do you happen to have an idea where this is mentioned? would love to know more!
 
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Concept M is something of a unicorn. I've been looking for for a drawing of that for 30 years.
View: https://twitter.com/R_P_one/status/1441747412041621505


While looking for all kinds of CSGN references, I came across this on RP1's twitter......
Could it be?!

This one still has hangars in the superstructure rather than a dedicated below-deck hangar. It's probably the same physical model as Scheme L but with a Mk 71 placed where the aft deck park used to be.
 
It seems to have a bit more modifications but I agree, this looks like an modification of the scheme L model indeed.
 
Either way its a nice view of of the CSGN.

ESPECIALLY since most of the images of that modern is either of the front or the other side.
 
When one starts questioning their sources.......
How certain are we that the scheme M had the hangars in the hull?
I have spend today gathering all specifications from the different sources (hybrid warships, Friedmans destroyers and cruisers) on the CSGN designs. And I noticed something interesting.
- We have 3 reference pictures:
1. one in hybrid warships and US cruisers both, specifically mentioned to be Scheme L
2. the two images of what appears to be the same model with some modifications.

- Scheme L had space for 6 VTOL and had 1 Mk 26 mod 2 and an 61 cell Mk 41, according to hybrid warships. It also had 1 Mk 71 and 2 phalanx.
- Friedman mentions no helicopters for the scheme L, might be an omission or scheme L would handle just 6 aircraft?
- The specifications in the various books differ a bit.
1. According to Friedmans destroyers CSGN Mk 2 is 24648 tons full load and 222,5 meters long OA (203 WL) . weapons given include 2 Mk 26 mod 2 and 2 Mk 71, 2 LAMPS III, 6 VTOL aircraft. 4 canisters for harpoons and 2 for tomahawk.
2. according to both cruisers and hybrid warships, CSGN Mk 2 Scheme L is 203 meters long OA and has a displacement of 21146 tons full load. Weapons given include 6 VTOL, 1 Mk 26 mod 2, 1 Mk 41. 6 canisters for harpoon.
3. Scheme K would be based on the hull of the regular CSGN, which I suspect would be the variant that was 203 meters at the WL (216,28 meters OA) and between 17 and 18k tons displacement.

Firefinders post here https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/strike-cruiser-from-the-80s.813/post-415879 mentions 18 aircraft, but I cannot find information backing that up (correct me if I'm wrong) but if I assume that information to be wrong, might it be possible that the scheme M would be the biggest design, mentioned in US destroyers? And keeping that in mind, how likely is it that the model is of scheme M, as it matches all characteristics? (assuming each door houses one aircraft, either an VTOL or an LAMPS III) while it does not match the lineart for the scheme L (The Mk 71 aft, the location of the Mk 26, how far the flight deck sticks out of the side, the length of the bulwark, the deck level of the phalanxes, length of the superstructure between the pilothouse and the mast, the shape of the forward superstructure as the boat bay does not appear to be on the model)

But I would love to hear more (better) opinions on this :p
 
That's a shame, that sounds like a reliable source.....

I'm going to try to estimate dimensions based on the components on the deck (the gun, the fighter) and see what I get, it might be the CSGN hull one too looking at how the flight deck sticks out more then on the lineart.
 
I have it: Ships and Aircraft of the US Fleet by Norman Polmar 13th Edition [1984]. It says:

After the [CSGN] was ignored by Congress, the Navy Sea Systems Command hurriedly developed a strike cruiser Mark II design retaining the same armament but with a flight deck added, presenting a superficial similarity to the Soviet KIEV-class VTOL carriers. However, the U.S. ship, with two Mk 26 launchers and two 8-inch lightweight guns, would have had an enlarged island structure with hangars for six Harrier VSTOL aircraft and three LAMPS III helicopters (far fewer than the KIEV carriers). A further modification of the Mk II design considered a hangar deck below the flight deck, resulting in a design somewhat similar to the Navy's small or light carrier of World War II (CVL 22-30). That ship would have carried about 18 Harriers on a displacement of some 18,000 tons.

The illustration is the one in this thread a couple of times already that shows a VSTOL A and a VSTOL B model parked aft, between the Mk 26 and what might be an aft gun.

To my reading, this suggests that the "further modification" of CSGN might have been much more like a nuclear light carrier (CVL) with much less organic armament and a much greater emphasis on aviation capacity. So not a cruiser in any meaningful sense. Certainly you could not fit 18 aircraft AND the full CSGN armament in 18,000 tons, no matter how much wishful thinking was applied.
 
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Hybrid warships mentions that Reuven Leopold had some more CSGN Mk 2- like concepts even after CSGN was cancelled so that might refer to those. Hell, on 18000 tons I would even expect it to have conventional propulsion if 18 aircraft had to be shipped, as that was about the displacement of the regular CSGN design. Curious too that it speaks about harriers, although that might of course be the only VSTOL aircraft that actually reached service back then so "VTOL" translated to "harrier" at that point.
 
I did some measurements on the 'new' model image, and I have high suspicions the model is of Scheme K. I would think that scheme (the baseline) unlikely to get such a model, however..... measuring it while compensating for the perspective and scaling it using the bow Mk 26 and bow Mk 71, I got a length of between 216 and 217 meters and scaling the beam using the same method with the wingspan of the Convair I got an hull beam of just over 22 meters (29,57 meters OA). This matches the CSGN hull dimensions (216,28 meters by 23,35 meters) quite closely! Especially when considering that measuring could be off by at least 4% just by the size of the individual pixels.

That said, nothing that margin of error, if I'm a single pixel off with my measurement of both the Mk 26 and the Mk 71 and thus the length would be larger, the 222,5 meters of the specs in US destroyers is not outside the realm of possibility. The beam of near 40 meters seems to be highly improbable though! But one thing is for certain: this is not artwork of another variant of scheme L, as it is definitely over the 203 meters OA given for that design. (unless both hybrid warships and US cruisers make an error on that point and that length is actually the waterline length, as it matches the waterline length in US destroyers and the waterline length of the regular CSGN hull)

Using the convair and the aft Mk 71 for scaling, I ended up with even larger numbers, around 240 meters of length, but I suspect that is due to measuring errors on objects only 30 pixels or so long.
 
Hybrid warships mentions that Reuven Leopold had some more CSGN Mk 2- like concepts even after CSGN was cancelled so that might refer to those. Hell, on 18000 tons I would even expect it to have conventional propulsion if 18 aircraft had to be shipped, as that was about the displacement of the regular CSGN design. Curious too that it speaks about harriers, although that might of course be the only VSTOL aircraft that actually reached service back then so "VTOL" translated to "harrier" at that point.
Depending on when the thing was considered, it was likely that hte Harrier was already IN USN/MC SERCIVE and likely have proven itself in the Falklands. So it could be why re-invent the wheel when we already have something that does the job just as well for now deal.

That and/or all use attempts failed or got...

What ever happened to the Rockwell deal.
The ducting for the VTOL sucked up so much of the thrust that the XFV-12 was never capable of a vertical takeoff, and the thrust augmentation effects didn't scale up like they thought. Only got 19% augmentation instead of the expected 55%.

Despite having a 30,000lb thrust engine in a 20,000lb airframe. Flew like a scalded rat in CTOL due to all the power, but couldn't do the VTOL part at all.
 
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The attached images are of a presentation to the House Armed Services Committee by Rear Admiral Thomas M. Ward in early 1978 about the CGN-42 . It contains several interesting pieces about the design of the ship and some of the equipment choices

Guns: Crudely, from the perspective of weight, two 5 inch Mk.45 guns could be exchanged for a single 8 inch Mk.71 (MCLWG). However, there was also a challenge with the hull depth required for the Mk.71. The exchange with Admiral Meyer leaves it unclear as to whether the installation of a single Mk.71 instead of the two Mk.45s was possible at that point, but CNO had decided on the twin Mk.45 fit. I wonder if the adoption of the single Mk.71 would have resulted in a change from two Mk.26 Mod.1 (44 round) launchers to one Mk.26 Mod 0 (24 round) and one Mk.26 Mod 2 (64 round) to compensate for the additional space required at the end with the Mk.71 and the space made available at the end that would not host a gun in such a configuration. Note also the discussion about Seafire.

VLS: The ship was designed to be able to transition from the Mk.26 to VLS as it became available, based on @isayyo2 post above it seems safe to assume it would have been 122 cells. The planned build programme at this time was sequential so its likely that later ships would have been built with VLS from the outset, had the CGN-42 programme proceeded.

Outboard: This briefing also confirms @TomS suggestion that the previously discussed OTH targeting system was to have been Outboard HFDF system. There would also have been a flag plot capable of supporting a flag officer and his staff which is probably the enhanced command and control capability mentioned previously.

Force Weapons Coordination: A function to be built into Aegis to coordinate targeting across ships in a task group whilst defending against saturation attacks (basically, optimising and coordinating engagements of air targets by AAW ships).
 

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IIRC, that building was very close to the forward superstructure of CGN-42
 
That looks like the 8" Mk71 there at the front.
The Long Beach refits did have that as an option IRC.

Also the Cornfield Cruiser, AKA USS Rancocas (LS-1), now know as the Vice Admiral James H. Doyle, Jr. Combat System Engineering Development Site (CSEDS).


Was built as a large scale mock up for Signal Testing and making Sure that all the transmitters, from the SPY1s to the Radio comes played nice with each other. Also was used for long enduranxe testing of the SPY1, AKA see how long it will last before breaking. It was later modded to test the set up for the Burke class.


Lately it been part of the Aegis BMD program using a set of SPY1Ds arrays that got damage in the USS Cole bombing.

Theres another Facility just like it on the East coast somewhere on a beach.
 
IIRC, that building was very close to the forward superstructure of CGN-42

Its basically a Mk 20 AEGIS deckhouse, which was designed to be fitted on a variety of different hulls, including both CSGN and the Long Beach rebuild.

The Long Beach refits did have that as an option IRC.

Also the Cornfield Cruiser, AKA USS Rancocas (LS-1), now know as the Vice Admiral James H. Doyle, Jr. Combat System Engineering Development Site (CSEDS).


Was built as a large scale mock up for Signal Testing and making Sure that all the transmitters, from the SPY1s to the Radio comes played nice with each other. Also was used for long enduranxe testing of the SPY1, AKA see how long it will last before breaking. It was later modded to test the set up for the Burke class.


Lately it been part of the Aegis BMD program using a set of SPY1Ds arrays that got damage in the USS Cole bombing.

Theres another Facility just like it on the East coast somewhere on a beach.

Not to be snarky, but CSEDS is on the East Coast. It's in New Jersey, about 40 miles from the Atlantic Ocean. It looks pretty far into the Atlantic for testing.

You might be crossing it up with the LLS-1 Desert Ship facility at White Sands? But Desert Ship doesn't have that sort of AEGIS superstructure. They tested SMs for AEGIS at White Sands, but I don't think they ever fitted an actual SPY-1 array there.

 
Not to be snarky, but CSEDS is on the East Coast. It's in New Jersey, about 40 miles from the Atlantic Ocean. It looks pretty far into the Atlantic for testing.

You might be crossing it up with the LLS-1 Desert Ship facility at White Sands? But Desert Ship doesn't have that sort of AEGIS superstructure. They tested SMs for AEGIS at White Sands, but I don't think they ever fitted an actual SPY-1 array there.

Nope

Theres another on the East Coast.

As is in ON THE COAST. As in Ocean, Beach, and bout 20 meters off the beach the building.

It something SC...

Ah the SCSC, Surface Combat Systems Center in Wallop Island Virginia.

Specifically the Aegis facility, which looks to have a Repeat of the CSGN Deck House and the Tico set up. And have multiple SPY1 radars, both B and D models with the SPQ-9B test set up and apperantly looking to set up the SPY6 and its variations there as well.
 

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Nope

Theres another on the East Coast.

As is in ON THE COAST. As in Ocean, Beach, and bout 20 meters off the beach the building.

It something SC...

Ah the SCSC, Surface Combat Systems Center in Wallop Island Virginia.

Specifically the Aegis facility, which looks to have a Repeat of the CSGN Deck House and the Tico set up. And have multiple SPY1 radars, both B and D models with the SPQ-9B test set up and apperantly looking to set up the SPY6 and its variations there as well.
Wow, I worked around AEGIS for years and managed to totally miss (or totally forget) that this one existed. Sorry.
 
Always wondered why the arms on the Mk 26 were so huge when all they could fire were Standard MRs. (Maybe ASROC and Harpoon but I honestly don't remember).
It could fire ASROC and Harpoon; ASROC needed to be fired on a ballistic trajectory, so the rails were longer than required for launching Standard. When launching Standard or Harpoon, the fore end of the aft portion of the rail (which was in two parts) was lifted clear of the forward rail segment to provide a shorter path. The result looks odd, as the missile path doesn’t appear congruent with the bottom edge of the launcher arm.
 

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