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Soviet Stealth: Research and Application

overscan (PaulMM)

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TsNII claim to be the institute with "stealth" experience. They claim to have reduced the RCS of Tu-160, S-37, and Kh-101 by factors of 6, 10, and 14 from the original designs.

Chelomei are supposed to have intended to use a Plasma Stealth generator called "Marabou" on their 3M25 Meteorit missile.
 

SOC

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BLACKJACK does have intakes that are pretty well RAM coated if it's an operational jet (the Zhukovskii Tupolev birds don't appear to have the RAM coating). Russia's RAM knowledge probably got a jumpstart when they recovered a D-21 drone that went off course (see Tupolev's Voron project, pretty much a D-21 copy).
 

sferrin

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Don't know if you've read Ben Rich's "Skunk Works" but in it he mentions meeting a guy from "the other side" after the wall came down and the guy handed him a piece of a D-21.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Indeed. The Russians got quite far in duplicating the D-21 airframe, but all the internal electronics were comprehensively fried (as they should be) and couldn't be reverse engineered.
 

flateric

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D-21 crashed (OK, in fact. glided) to the Soviet territory (one of South Azian republics, Turkmenistan if I remember correctly) after its guidance system failed during one of China overfly missions. Self destruction system failed as well, and after fuel went to the last drop, top secret stuff glided almost to the feets of one local shepherds. Strange craft had no national insignia but had small stencils on it in a languange sheperd has never seen before, that made him to report of finding to local KGB representative. Many years after when D-21 was declassified, french delegation was shocked to see dismantled D-21 remains during excursion in one of TzaGI hangars.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Some more evidence of Soviet disbelief in Stealth...
NIIP claim their Irbis radar will detect a 0.1 - 0.5 sq m RCS fighter at 165-240km, which is enough to detect the F-22. Therefore, NIIP clearly believe the F-22 RCS is 0.1-0.5 sq m.

They also give a figure of 0.01 sq m RCS for the "super low signature" target like AGM-129 in the same article.
 

Pit

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Paul there was an interesting (thorugh I haven't see it yet) article of the topic on JDW some weeks back. Will try to find it.

Can you comment or pass the article about Irbis you're reffering?
 

Austin

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If the Soviet/Russian really knew the true F-22 RCS they wouldnt be making it public , Those figures seems to me like some PR exercise.
 

paralay

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Russian consider that the fighter cannot have the signature below 0.3 sq m RCS ;)
 

JCage

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overscan said:
Some more evidence of Soviet disbelief in Stealth...
NIIP claim their Irbis radar will detect a 0.1 - 0.5 sq m RCS fighter at 165-240km, which is enough to detect the F-22. Therefore, NIIP clearly believe the F-22 RCS is 0.1-0.5 sq m.

They also give a figure of 0.01 sq m RCS for the "super low signature" target like AGM-129 in the same article.

Can you put the article up Overscan?? Or relevant translated parts??

Is there any mention of IAF getting the Irbis or a modernized Bars?

When you mentioned solo processors on BR, it could very well be that the twin RC1/RC2 which allow Bars to track 15 targets, have been replaced with a newer single processor, faster & making use of more internal cards, faster processors etc.

Hence the "solo".
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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According to Bill Sweetman, more than 100 Russian Su-27s have been treated with the signature reduction package.

ITAE say the engine intakes have a high performance RAM between 0.7mm and 1.4mm thick on the intake ducts and 0.5mm thick on the fan blades reduces the intake RCS 10-15dB, which measure alone halves the Su-27 RCS.

The other measures include a treated cockpit canopy (alternating metallic and polymer layers, using plasma deposition) and hand held sprays to treat external munitions, as revealed earlier.

EADS have their RaSigma-3 outdoor RCS range, which can be used to identify RCS hotspots in order of their RCS contribution in order to treat the hotspots with RAM. EADS say a 10dB reduction is possible on a low budget, and 20dB with an extended budget.

Source:

Bill Sweetman, 'WORTH the COST?' Janes Defence Weekly, 19 July 2006.
 

Meteorit

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One tidbit I found once:

Soviet Union had RCS ranges at Aralsk, Kalinin and Voronezh.

Source
SOVIET REACTIONS TO STEALTH (SNIE 11-7/9-85/L)
 

Pit

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I can confirm it after reading the magazine (Air Fleet 2006/04, article on Irbis), any claim of DRDO or DARE participation in irbis is utter-BS (sorry for the big word).

R&D was carried on by NIIP and GRPZ from the begining, and now OAO Sukhoi signed a 3 year participation for funds allocation of the Irbis program for the Su-27SM2/35.

I didn't read anything related to Su-30MKI upgrades...but I guess this is possible don't you think?.

With relation to RAM/RAS and such, Matej could you talk about this?. Where are such upgrades are carried out? Kubinka's ARZ?. And since when?.

Did you know anything about the MiG-29 program?
 

JCage

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I can confirm it after reading the magazine (Air Fleet 2006/04, article on Irbis), any claim of DRDO or DARE participation in irbis is utter-BS (sorry for the big word).

I had hoped Sengupta was not BSing, but it seems he was. 

He is only good when you know he has visited some airshow or trade fair, then he gets a chance to do his journalist card show bit, and get some information.

Otherwise, el slimo will be plagiarizing..and cooking up stories.

His claim was that DRDO's DARE was participating in "Active phased array" Irbis radar

"Active Irbis". ;D


I would still hope that some program like this is indeed underway and he heard "something" and spun it into this BS, but it remains to be seen.

Basically what he has done is read this and make up some BS based on it:

http://tinyurl.com/mpyzb

"Indian AF Su-30MKIs Nearly Ready

by Michal Fiszer
Mar. 10, 2005


...............

The Batch 3 standard will not quite be the "ultimate," since a future modernization is planned. The N011M Bars radars are to receive new transmitter components that will increase their range to 180 km, and new gimbals for the antenna mount to increase the field of view to about 90-100 degrees to both sides. New software will enable a Doppler-sharpening mode and the capability to engage up to eight air targets simultaneously. The aircraft are also to carry the heavy PJ-10 Brahmos-A anti-ship missiles, developed by NPO Mashinostroyenya (Reutovo, Russia) and DRDO (Delhi, India). This missile has a range of up to 300 km, but because it weighs 2,250 kg, the aircraft will be able to carry only one.
 

flateric

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Channell One of federal Russian TV has a weekly show named Strike Force. Being some kind of pretentious, military power propaganda carrying sometimes many obvious mistakes and statements, historical mistakes etc., show staff meantime has access to rare places and information.

Last week there were some stuff about 2 TzNII MO RF (2nd Russia's Department of Defense Central Scientific & Research Institute).
Some interesting stuff were aired:

1). Said that TzNII has built numerous models of LO aircraft concept models that used faceted surfaces before first spy reports were received about Have Blue program. Institute chief also stated that GRU reports of F-117A in 1978 were not surprise for them and joked about corragation of one of their first faceted model's lenght - 17 meters - to F-117A designation. F-117A model was shown (obviously being hanged up by copter or crane) at Eric-1 RCS tests range. Also note strange faceted structures on the ground.
 

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flateric

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Of course we have many models of US stuff. Many...
 

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flateric

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Of course, we can't pass over plazma tech here. Recently declassified images shows as said tests of test article (mean this sphere carrying two rocket motors) at Eric-1 RCS test range that gave ability to understand how plazma looks at radars.
Said that serial Tu-160s already has plasma generator(s) installed in forward fuselage.
 

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elmayerle

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flateric said:
Of course we have many models of US stuff. Many...

*chuckle* I wonder if I (or, more properly, Northrop) should be affronted that there's no TSSAM model?
 

flateric

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Evan, I'm pretty sure they have much more plywood stuff there, so no need to worry about it)))
 

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Cool stuff, looks like the implications of Ufimtsev's discoveries didn't go quite as unrealized in his home country as is commonly believed! Thanks for sharing :)
 

Sundog

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BTW, the "strange faceted structure" on the ground looks like a compass rose to me, but that's just a guess on my part.
 

Trident

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My guess would be a foundation for a pylon to mount models on.
 

sferrin

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Trident said:
Cool stuff, looks like the implications of Ufimtsev's discoveries didn't go quite as unrealized in his home country as is commonly believed! Thanks for sharing :)


My guess as to what we're seeing in those pictures is the Russian effort to determine what the RCS of the F-117 was. If you look at it carefully it looks like a combination of a silouette that a satellite would see combined with that very first photo that was released that had the perspective all screwed up.
 

Trident

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Oh, I'm sure the model in those screencaptures is supposed to be a F-117. I was talking about the info flateric posted.
 

flateric

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More snaps. Strange structure we were talking about is used to rotate scale RCS model hanged on a crane at 30 m height using ropes connected to its 'rays'.
 

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Rickshaw

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Are those RVs in the background in this shot?



I wonder how they found out about them?
 

sferrin

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flateric said:
More snaps. Strange structure we were talking about is used to rotate scale RCS model hanged on a crane at 30 m height using ropes connected to its 'rays'.

What is that tank looking thing at the bottom of your pictures on that last post?
 

flateric

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This is various (including mobile) radar stuff staying in a row at Erik-1 RCS test range simulating radar posts of 'possible adversary' looking directly to RCS scale model disposition.
 

sferrin

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flateric said:
This is various (including mobile) radar stuff staying in a row at Erik-1 RCS test range simulating radar posts of 'possible adversary' looking directly to RCS scale model disposition.

right but do you know the specific designation of that tank? The mount looks pretty stout for a radar.
 

flateric

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sferrin said:
right but do you know the specific designation of that tank? The mount looks pretty stout for a radar.

Sorry, Sferrin I'm not tough with mobile radars and radars in common.
 

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sorry to bump an old thread, but i found this and didnt see it posted anywhere on the site yet - thought it may be relevent if anyone was to want the info.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/plasma04.htm

"A Russian scientific research organisation is to offer for export a 'bolt-on' stealth device that it claims renders non-stealthy aircraft practically invisible to radar. The system, which envelops the aircraft in a cloak of ionised gas known as a plasma, is said to be fully developed, with work on a "third-generation visibility-reduction system" under way.

Keldysh NITs (Nauchno-Issledovatelskiy Tsentr or Scientific Research Centre) is making the claims. According to its director, Anatoliy Koroteyev, the system weighs less than 100kg and consumes little more than several dozen kW of power.

Given the state of the Russian economy, analysts consider it unlikely that any of NITs' work has been applied to Russian Air Force aircraft. According to Koroteyev, however, the system will soon be offered for export.

By installing the system, a typical aircraft radar cross-section (RCS) might be cut "by more than 100 times", Keldysh NITs officials said. This would be much the same RCS as dedicated US stealth aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-117 stealth fighter and the Northrop Grumman B-2 stealth bomber.

The claims are given credence by corroborating information on the status of Russian aerospace plasma research acquired by Jane's Defence Weekly last year. Russian work in the use of plasmas that purported to reduce aircraft drag by as much as 30% was collated by British Aerospace (BAe) in the mid-1990s. BAe has since been trying to verify the Russian claims in experiments carried out jointly with the UK Defence Evaluation and Research Agency (DERA) and the UK Ministry of Defence (JDW 17 June 1998).

One of the spin-offs of 'plasma aerodynamics', Russian officials told BAe, was that it vastly reduced an aircraft's RCS. The absorption of radio waves by plasmas is well known as the communications black-out that a space vehicle encounters on re-entry is caused by the shielding effects of plasma. This builds naturally in front of the spacecraft as it hits the Earth's atmosphere and shocks the air to high temperature.

The same principle applies to the absorption of radar energy. Although the aircraft would appear to glow like a lightbulb, using plasma generators all around the airframe, it would be almost invisible on a radar screen, Russian officials maintain.

In the opinion of designers at Mikoyan and Sukhoi, the expense of all-embracing low-observable technology as applied in the US Air Force's F-117 and B-2 outweighs its effectiveness. Russians prefer to stress the 'balance' achieved in their latest-generation of fighter designs between aerodynamic efficiency and stealth. The Mikoyan 1-44 and Sukhoi S-37 technology demonstrators, both of which have been rolled out in the past 18 months, are supposed to make use of radar-absorbent paint and materials but are short of inherent stealth features.

Keldysh NITs said that "first- and second-" generation plasma-generators had been tested on the ground and in flight. The centre is working on a third-generation system "based on new physical principles", a possible reference to the use of electrostatic energy around an airframe to reduce RCS. Others believe the Russians could be attempting to duplicate secret work under way in the USA to make aircraft invisible to the human eye by using 'smart skins' that mimic their background."

(source: Jane's Defence Wekly, March 17, 1999)
 

flateric

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Interesting article on 2 TzNII MO RF (2nd Russia's Department of Defense Central Scientific & Research Institute), written by institute staff
http://vko.ru/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?tabID=320&ItemID=86&mid=2891&wversion=Staging

second illustration (rather mystic) shows degree of RCS lowering achieved via efforts of institute. Blue sectors - are these numbers classified or what? Or it means only RCS measurements, not lowering, experiments?

Note also that Kh-90 GELA directly linked to AJAX. ???

also see here http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1903.0/highlight,tznii.html
 

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Meteorit

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flateric said:
Note also that Kh-90 GELA directly linked to AJAX. ???

But are you sure this means the MHD hypersonic vehicle "Ajax" and not the name of GELA that just happens to be the same? Just wondering myself too...
 

LowObservable

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Verry interrrresting...

Why would you even try to reduce the RCS of a Ka-25? Maybe it was an effort to match the RCS of the ship. And what's that THING in the lower left corner?

Looked at a BrahMos recently. It's covered in RAM.
 

Trident

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Yes, I'm wondering about that missile as well. It has to be said that the slide uses some artistic license with those photos, the bottom right pic most certainly does not show a Kh-15 (I recognise the weapon but the name escapes me right now).
 

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LowObservable said:
Why would you even try to reduce the RCS of a Ka-25?

Ka-25 was designed when RCS wasn't a concern. It might thus be that a relatively small amount of effort could greatly reduce the RCS. The RCS might still be pretty substantial, but nevertheless vastly smaller than what it was.
 

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