South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.

Graugrun

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Thanks for that JFC Fuller - it would be nice to also see them in the SA Artillery thread!;)
 

Graugrun

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SAAB sold the IP to Tata in India. They plan to integrate LEDS-150 on their T-90's. Hopefully they'll buy the Mongoose rounds from Denel, but the Indians are notorious for ignoring IP rights.
I wonder how much they'd need to do to get their C-RAM (Cheetah and Mongoose-3) system adapted for naval use. I know they've integrated with Oerlikon Skyshield gun-based air defence system. Don't be surprised if the Saudi's are the first customer. They actually used their Oerlikon Skyshield systems to defend their oil facilities that were attacked a few months ago.
They've used an open architecture to integrate different radars for Umkhonto, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same for the C-RAM project.
The interceptor is also sized so that four can fit into an Umkhonto naval surface-to-air missile canister according to Denel. If they get it right, they'll have quite a unique Naval product.
I know that the Indians were licensed to assemble and maintain the MAWS/CIDAS/IDAS type self protection systems for their HAL Dhruv helicopters and they have been using such on their SU-30's for many years now. I did not know that the IP for the LEDS system (ground and naval use) was sold to them - are they not just licensed to produce it? It could also be that we have developed and more advanced version and sold them the older tech (SAAB are now calling it the LEDS Mark II (see attached PDF brochure)

They told me that the Mongoose 3 was used as a basis for the Cheetah missile, however it sounded like the Cheetah would be slightly longer ranged, but a little less sophisticated/less expensive than the Mongoose 3 (the impression I was left with after discussions at AAD 2018 with Denel reps, certainly not from any official Denel statements). Looking through SAAB's webpage it seems that the softkill LEDS-150 system is in use and that the hardkill (Mongoose 3) system is still available should someone want it developed further (and perhaps also pay for this development..?)

It is sad though, Mongoose 3 in particular seems like a really good jump for Denel (and Aviatronics) in terms of new technologies, development and general capabilities...

Attached are some PDF's from SAAB (Aviatronics) recently taken off of their website.

A naval version of Mongoose 3/ Cheetah does seem very interesting to me, I really think they could find a good niche there for your slightly smaller type naval ships!
 

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Graugrun

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LEDS 150 (with Mongoose 1 missiles) on a Swedish CV-90, this pic is a good couple of years old I believe... below that is a brief of the Mongoose 1 and it's abilities.
 

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tyrin

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@Graugrun
So, when Denel allows the UAE to market these products does Denel just send them in premade kits? I have looked through some of the Linkedins and found many ex-Denel employees working for the company Halcon that were involved in projects many years ago like Raptor, AASM fins, Mukwop, etc and was thinking some may have brought their former experience and developed the products in country but that is just my theory.

 

Graugrun

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Well this looks like the end of Denel Dynamics, thanks only to our wonderfully inept ANC government, who are so busy corrupting and stealing as much of the tax payers money that they can - that Denel, with a firm (deposit already paid) very large order (for us) ending up to over 30 Billion Rands have had it cancelled on them... (thanks to our government) It's pretty much a sign of the country though, Zimbabwe #2 here we come..!!! To say that I am very pissed-off at the moment is an understatement!!

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/egyptian-umkhonto-deal-apparently-falls-through/
 

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isayyo2

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Well this looks like the end of Denel Dynamics, thanks only to our wonderfully inept ANC government, who are so busy corrupting and stealing as much of the tax payers money that they can - that Denel, with a firm (deposit already paid) very large order (for us) ending up to over 30 Billion Rands have had it cancelled on them... (thanks to our government) It's pretty much a sign of the country though, Zimbabwe #2 here we come..!!! To say that I am very pissed-off at the moment is an understatement!!

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/egyptian-umkhonto-deal-apparently-falls-through/
I'm sorry to hear, get out while you can!
 

Zorii_Bliss

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Here's the official brochure for the Cheetah missile/Oerlikon Skyshield Force Protection System. I got this at AAD 2018, and the Denel guys at the stand told me that Denel was actually approached by Rheinmetall Defence to develop the missile for them. I was also told that interestingly enough, by Rheinmetall's various calculations, it would be cheaper to fire a Cheetah missile at an incoming C-RAM target, then to fire a short burst (about 4 rounds per twin gun) of AHEAD ammunition at the target!!!
Hi, this is a very informative brochure.
I was looking for information on the size of the Cheetah missile, but I haven't found anything. Do you have an estimate? Length, diameter, weight?
Thanks in advance.
 

Graugrun

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Here's the official brochure for the Cheetah missile/Oerlikon Skyshield Force Protection System. I got this at AAD 2018, and the Denel guys at the stand told me that Denel was actually approached by Rheinmetall Defence to develop the missile for them. I was also told that interestingly enough, by Rheinmetall's various calculations, it would be cheaper to fire a Cheetah missile at an incoming C-RAM target, then to fire a short burst (about 4 rounds per twin gun) of AHEAD ammunition at the target!!!
Hi, this is a very informative brochure.
I was looking for information on the size of the Cheetah missile, but I haven't found anything. Do you have an estimate? Length, diameter, weight?
Thanks in advance.

No, I'm afraid not...
 

Zorii_Bliss

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Here's the official brochure for the Cheetah missile/Oerlikon Skyshield Force Protection System. I got this at AAD 2018, and the Denel guys at the stand told me that Denel was actually approached by Rheinmetall Defence to develop the missile for them. I was also told that interestingly enough, by Rheinmetall's various calculations, it would be cheaper to fire a Cheetah missile at an incoming C-RAM target, then to fire a short burst (about 4 rounds per twin gun) of AHEAD ammunition at the target!!!
Hi, this is a very informative brochure.
I was looking for information on the size of the Cheetah missile, but I haven't found anything. Do you have an estimate? Length, diameter, weight?
Thanks in advance.

No, I'm afraid not...
Thanks for your quick reply.
 

norseman

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Denel Cheetah, length 1.98m, width 10.5cm
Denel Mongoose 3, length 1.2m, width 10.5cm

I did have the weights but seem to have misplaced them, this is also the later model Mongoose 3
 

norseman

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The mark 1 Mongoose 3 was a lot shorter with a range of approx 300m and was optimised for 360 degree coverage extended engagement. The next gen Mongoose 3 was designed to give engagement ranges out to 1km+ area (heard close to 2km in actual testing from my SA friend) for very fast full coverage engagement of incoming large AT missiles (Hellfire etc & LGB's) and also to deal with close pop up attacks from helicopters/drones and last ditch AA/C-RAM.
 

Graugrun

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anuvis

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I originally posted this article in the "Space" section, however the below piece also relates very much to our nuclear missile program (dual use missiles), it's interesting in that the below is an official comment/admission to three test launches of MRBM/ICBM's - so I decided to add it here as well.


"In the 1980s the Overberg Test Range in the Western Cape was used for space launches. Four South African space rockets were built, and three launched between 1989 and 1990, but without useful payloads. In the 1990s funding for South Africa’s space programme dried up and as a requirement to join the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) in 1995, South Africa was forced to destroy much of its key facilities and technologies, including the launch pad at Overberg. However, the site has retained most of its space launch capabilities, including mission control centre, radar and telemetry tracking facilities, and range safety systems."

man that is even mor shiti that what hapen to us in argentina
 

Graugrun

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Just a Brief update on the interesting version of the Mongoose, called "Mongoose 3". In many regards it's a different missile in relation to the Mongoose 1 (Post #244 above), while similar in concept and application, it's intended targets and capability (Full spectrum defence, including anti APFSDS) are a very clear jump over that of the Mongoose1. I believe that this is the earlier version ( 1st pre-production Prototype), as apposed to the later variant pictured in my post #193 and #195) above. The insert below comes from one of Denel Dynamic's own presentation slides.
 

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stealthflanker

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Just a Brief update on the interesting version of the Mongoose, called "Mongoose 3". In many regards it's a different missile in relation to the Mongoose 1 (Post #244 above), while similar in concept and application, it's intended targets and capability (Full spectrum defence, including anti APFSDS) are a very clear jump over that of the Mongoose1. I believe that this is the earlier version ( 1st pre-production Prototype), as apposed to the later variant pictured in my post #193 and #195) above. The insert below comes from one of Denel Dynamic's own presentation slides.

hmm 300 m range is interesting.

I did work a bit on a concept of an active protection system, using mainly blast as a means to deflect inbound APFSDS. 300 m range is what is needed to engage 1750 m/s, 10 Kg incoming APFSDS threat. With 500 grams of warhead it could deflect the example APFSDS by 204 cm (2 meters) Assuming the missile exploded 15 cm above the target.
 

Graugrun

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So those of you who would like to know what the latest developments are with the "Cheetah" missile as mentioned in my previous posts (#182, #197, #200 and #209), it's now all part of the UAE EDGE/Halcon Group (of which the missile divisions are a 51/49 % split between EDGE and Denel). It has now been re-named as the "Skyknight" - Article is the latest report from IDEX 2021 and is from IHS Janes.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...c-ram-missile-for-rheinmetall-for-air-defence
 

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stealthflanker

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Holy... 51% Edge, so basically Denel has become subsidiary now.
 
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Mech

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Just a Brief update on the interesting version of the Mongoose, called "Mongoose 3". In many regards it's a different missile in relation to the Mongoose 1 (Post #244 above), while similar in concept and application, it's intended targets and capability (Full spectrum defence, including anti APFSDS) are a very clear jump over that of the Mongoose1. I believe that this is the earlier version ( 1st pre-production Prototype), as apposed to the later variant pictured in my post #193 and #195) above. The insert below comes from one of Denel Dynamic's own presentation slides.

hmm 300 m range is interesting.

I did work a bit on a concept of an active protection system, using mainly blast as a means to deflect inbound APFSDS. 300 m range is what is needed to engage 1750 m/s, 10 Kg incoming APFSDS threat. With 500 grams of warhead it could deflect the example APFSDS by 204 cm (2 meters) Assuming the missile exploded 15 cm above the target.
Changing the impact angle of APFSDS will also greatly affect penetration. If you could damage the fins at 300m a long rod penetrator would become pretty unstable in flight.
 

Mech

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Just a Brief update on the interesting version of the Mongoose, called "Mongoose 3". In many regards it's a different missile in relation to the Mongoose 1 (Post #244 above), while similar in concept and application, it's intended targets and capability (Full spectrum defence, including anti APFSDS) are a very clear jump over that of the Mongoose1. I believe that this is the earlier version ( 1st pre-production Prototype), as apposed to the later variant pictured in my post #193 and #195) above. The insert below comes from one of Denel Dynamic's own presentation slides.
300m would imply that its guided ? Looks like they added control fins to the front.
 

stealthflanker

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Just a Brief update on the interesting version of the Mongoose, called "Mongoose 3". In many regards it's a different missile in relation to the Mongoose 1 (Post #244 above), while similar in concept and application, it's intended targets and capability (Full spectrum defence, including anti APFSDS) are a very clear jump over that of the Mongoose1. I believe that this is the earlier version ( 1st pre-production Prototype), as apposed to the later variant pictured in my post #193 and #195) above. The insert below comes from one of Denel Dynamic's own presentation slides.
300m would imply that its guided ? Looks like they added control fins to the front.
Yeah, those fins at front are canard for control. The tail also seems to have different design than mongoose 1. I believe it's now a free to roll tail.
 

Graugrun

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Holy... 51% Edge, so basically Denel has become subsidiary now.
Stealthflanker - I think this article would answer things a little more fully for you... Our current government's various policies (BEE, AA etc..) as well as massive corruption and general incompetence have been having a very detrimental effect on both Denel and our defence industry as a whole..

Denel’s employee numbers shrink 15% over the last year​


https://www.defenceweb.co.za/indust...mployee-numbers-shrink-15-over-the-last-year/
 

Mech

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Holy... 51% Edge, so basically Denel has become subsidiary now.
Stealthflanker - I think this article would answer things a little more fully for you... Our current government's various policies (BEE, AA etc..) as well as massive corruption and general incompetence have been having a very detrimental effect on both Denel and our defence industry as a whole..

Denel’s employee numbers shrink 15% over the last year​


https://www.defenceweb.co.za/indust...mployee-numbers-shrink-15-over-the-last-year/
The problems at Denel also coincided perfectly with the Gulf states shifting focus to domestic production and RnD. MBS's "Made in Saudi", Tawazun etc. Like all their industrial projects its actually run by foreign engineers once you start looking into their linkedin profiles. Denel more than likely already lost the cream of the crop in 2019. I suspect we'll see a huge drop off in new products coming out of Denel for the nxt decade while we try and market old systems that are falling behind from what's coming out of countries like Turkey. A lot of what they have on the books aren't even sellable, because they dont have the cash to finish the last 5% of the development cycle.
 

stealthflanker

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Thanks @Graugrun and @Mech

It's honestly very disturbing to hear the state of South Africa arms industries like that. It used to be one of the strongest in world and perhaps the best in the continent. It's kinda reminds me of Ukraine. where their govt doesnt seem to want anything from their defense industries.
 

Graugrun

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Moving on to some of the bigger stuff - dual use satellite/nuclear MRBM/ICBM area of interest - some of the rocket motor development in the late 1980's IIRC... I added a red arrow in the pic at the bottom of the brochure, to point out the rocket motor for the V3 C type (Sidewinder class) Air-Air missile - it should give some perspective reference as the the size of the larger rocket motors...
 

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Graugrun

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Thanks @Graugrun and @Mech

It's honestly very disturbing to hear the state of South Africa arms industries like that. It used to be one of the strongest in world and perhaps the best in the continent. It's kinda reminds me of Ukraine. where their govt doesnt seem to want anything from their defense industries.

Stealthflanker - so here is one of the stories of how our government lost a good missile deal for us (I won't go into much detail, but it almost seems like they purposely failed to provide guarantees that they had previously promised, out of spite.. These guarantees were not at all massive compared to the annual SA government budget, and the deal in question would have more than paid it back 4 fold!)

So instead we lose a nice big deal (deal signed, deposit already paid), and it also included the necessary development funds to complete the qualification of the longer range radar guided version - which would of course opened a whole lot of new potential deals for us (including from an existing customer, the Finish navy, who had been already asking us for it...).

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/sea/se...s-ordered-vl-mica-missiles-for-its-corvettes/
 

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kaiserbill

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Nice post on those rocket nozzles.
The "performance" and ineptness of the new government from 1994 onwards regarding the defence industry is truly staggering.
They have basically completely destroyed an entire high-tech sector, one that was painstakingly built up and provided a world class high technology sector that could have been an engine for knowledge, technology, and jobs.
I recall that discomforting feeling around the Atlas ACE/Ovid saga, and realising at the time what was coming down the line.
 

Graugrun

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Nice post on those rocket nozzles.
The "performance" and ineptness of the new government from 1994 onwards regarding the defence industry is truly staggering.
They have basically completely destroyed an entire high-tech sector, one that was painstakingly built up and provided a world class high technology sector that could have been an engine for knowledge, technology, and jobs.
I recall that discomforting feeling around the Atlas ACE/Ovid saga, and realising at the time what was coming down the line.

Yeah - we all knew what was coming down the line - you should see how everything is panning out here... Zimbabwe 2.0 here we come!!!

Anyway - some more pics of the nozzles and filament wound fuel tanks - The scale can be better seen with the technician standing next to the large rocket nozzle - note the 2nd stage medium rocket nozzle next to/behind him. The 3rd stage nozzle is the black and silver one at left in the pic on the brochure in post #270 above.
 

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PDW

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Holy... 51% Edge, so basically Denel has become subsidiary now.
Stealthflanker - I think this article would answer things a little more fully for you... Our current government's various policies (BEE, AA etc..) as well as massive corruption and general incompetence have been having a very detrimental effect on both Denel and our defence industry as a whole..

Denel’s employee numbers shrink 15% over the last year​


https://www.defenceweb.co.za/indust...mployee-numbers-shrink-15-over-the-last-year/
The problems at Denel also coincided perfectly with the Gulf states shifting focus to domestic production and RnD. MBS's "Made in Saudi", Tawazun etc. Like all their industrial projects its actually run by foreign engineers once you start looking into their linkedin profiles. Denel more than likely already lost the cream of the crop in 2019. I suspect we'll see a huge drop off in new products coming out of Denel for the nxt decade while we try and market old systems that are falling behind from what's coming out of countries like Turkey. A lot of what they have on the books aren't even sellable, because they dont have the cash to finish the last 5% of the development cycle.
And Denel employees brought the drawings with them?

 

Graugrun

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Holy... 51% Edge, so basically Denel has become subsidiary now.
Stealthflanker - I think this article would answer things a little more fully for you... Our current government's various policies (BEE, AA etc..) as well as massive corruption and general incompetence have been having a very detrimental effect on both Denel and our defence industry as a whole..

Denel’s employee numbers shrink 15% over the last year​


https://www.defenceweb.co.za/indust...mployee-numbers-shrink-15-over-the-last-year/
The problems at Denel also coincided perfectly with the Gulf states shifting focus to domestic production and RnD. MBS's "Made in Saudi", Tawazun etc. Like all their industrial projects its actually run by foreign engineers once you start looking into their linkedin profiles. Denel more than likely already lost the cream of the crop in 2019. I suspect we'll see a huge drop off in new products coming out of Denel for the nxt decade while we try and market old systems that are falling behind from what's coming out of countries like Turkey. A lot of what they have on the books aren't even sellable, because they dont have the cash to finish the last 5% of the development cycle.
And Denel employees brought the drawings with them?


PDW - it seems so... Hopefully a full investigation will uncover all the details and facts... The UAE, (and perhaps even Saudi Arabia) and more recently Rheinmetall (The Cheetah/SkyKnight missile's development by Denel Dynamics referred to in posts #209/213/218/219, was paid for by Rheinmetall) have paid for various missiles and related projects' development at Denel Dynamics, so it may just be the case that those packs where owed to them anyway. Still let's wait for the report to see.

What I do know is that a rather toxic working environment has been setting in at Denel over the years in general, with BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) and AA (Affirmative Action) both playing increasingly big and rather onerous roles over the years, not to mention government interference, incompetence and corruption. Denel employees have not been receiving salaries (or at least on and off) for many months now (you can't do that indefinitely to highly skilled engineers). So you can understand them leaving (although if they took the 'packs' with them illegally, then I'd say that two wrongs still don't make a right).

This latest article covers some of it...

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/denels-legal-woes-continue/
 

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Graugrun

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This interesting segment out of the latest Denel Annual report regards the Cheetah/SkyKnight missile - exactly how this all ties in to the article in my post #260 above is something I would be interested to know more about..!

Former Interim Group CEO Talib Sadik noted that during 2019/20 Denel’s business divisions recorded several highlights. Denel Dynamics’ Cheetah counter rocket, artillery and mortar (C-RAM) missile development work for the year was successfully completed with the conclusion of the System Requirements Review. In addition to the approval of the system and subsystem requirement specifications, a programme management baseline was also reviewed and accepted.

The article itself:

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/denel-lists-highlights-in-otherwise-bleak-annual-report/
 

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Graugrun

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Holy... 51% Edge, so basically Denel has become subsidiary now.
Stealthflanker - I think this article would answer things a little more fully for you... Our current government's various policies (BEE, AA etc..) as well as massive corruption and general incompetence have been having a very detrimental effect on both Denel and our defence industry as a whole..

Denel’s employee numbers shrink 15% over the last year​


https://www.defenceweb.co.za/indust...mployee-numbers-shrink-15-over-the-last-year/
The problems at Denel also coincided perfectly with the Gulf states shifting focus to domestic production and RnD. MBS's "Made in Saudi", Tawazun etc. Like all their industrial projects its actually run by foreign engineers once you start looking into their linkedin profiles. Denel more than likely already lost the cream of the crop in 2019. I suspect we'll see a huge drop off in new products coming out of Denel for the nxt decade while we try and market old systems that are falling behind from what's coming out of countries like Turkey. A lot of what they have on the books aren't even sellable, because they dont have the cash to finish the last 5% of the development cycle.
And Denel employees brought the drawings with them?


PDW - it seems so... Hopefully a full investigation will uncover all the details and facts... The UAE, (and perhaps even Saudi Arabia) and more recently Rheinmetall (The Cheetah/SkyKnight missile's development by Denel Dynamics referred to in posts #209/213/218/219, was paid for by Rheinmetall) have paid for various missiles and related projects' development at Denel Dynamics, so it may just be the case that those packs where owed to them anyway. Still let's wait for the report to see.

What I do know is that a rather toxic working environment has been setting in at Denel over the years in general, with BEE (Black Economic Empowerment) and AA (Affirmative Action) both playing increasingly big and rather onerous roles over the years, not to mention government interference, incompetence and corruption. Denel employees have not been receiving salaries (or at least on and off) for many months now (you can't do that indefinitely to highly skilled engineers). So you can understand them leaving (although if they took the 'packs' with them illegally, then I'd say that two wrongs still don't make a right).

This latest article covers some of it...

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featured/denels-legal-woes-continue/

Just some further background info to this post in terms of Denel's demise...

https://dailyfriend.co.za/2021/03/17/the-demise-of-denel/#comment-21244
 

Mech

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Holy... 51% Edge, so basically Denel has become subsidiary now.
Stealthflanker - I think this article would answer things a little more fully for you... Our current government's various policies (BEE, AA etc..) as well as massive corruption and general incompetence have been having a very detrimental effect on both Denel and our defence industry as a whole..

Denel’s employee numbers shrink 15% over the last year​


https://www.defenceweb.co.za/indust...mployee-numbers-shrink-15-over-the-last-year/
The problems at Denel also coincided perfectly with the Gulf states shifting focus to domestic production and RnD. MBS's "Made in Saudi", Tawazun etc. Like all their industrial projects its actually run by foreign engineers once you start looking into their linkedin profiles. Denel more than likely already lost the cream of the crop in 2019. I suspect we'll see a huge drop off in new products coming out of Denel for the nxt decade while we try and market old systems that are falling behind from what's coming out of countries like Turkey. A lot of what they have on the books aren't even sellable, because they dont have the cash to finish the last 5% of the development cycle.
And Denel employees brought the drawings with them?

You don't really need the drawings or spec sheets if you have the guys who made them working for you.
 

Graugrun

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Nice in lab photo of the first stage of the RSA 3 MRBM. The 'in rocket plume' guide-vanes where designed to blow out after 10 seconds, giving just enough control for the rocket during the first 10 seconds of lift-off/flight, without creating unnecessary resistance during the duration of the flight. After 10 seconds there would be enough aerodynamic force on the external fins for further controlled flight.
 

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