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South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.

Dodger67

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The "simple" CLOS version of the Umkhonto shown earler in this topic is basically a "repackaging" of the original SAHV 1980s development programme as a Cactus/Crotale replacement, that gave rise to the Umkhonto SAM family.
 

jsport

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sa_bushwar said:
Denel Brochure of the Seraph High Speed Stealth Drone concept, that was as far as I know only taken to small scale mock-up stage. Time frame est. early 1990's.
wow, thanks for posting :)
 

kaiserbill

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Very interesting.

The Seraph obviously morphed and developed from the Flowchart 2 UAV, which can be seen below. From memory, this was a project that was first publically displayed in the early '90's. I've no recollection what the original Flowchart UAV (1?) was.

Edit: Just having a look at my library, and it seems Flowchart 2 was first pubically revealed in 1994 (so obviously stemming from the years earlier), with the Seraph from around 1995.
 

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kaiserbill

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More interesting is the second page of that pdf attachment...the picture marked Seraph 2.
I had these images on my PC for quite a while, simply marked as Seraph. No idea where I got them.
I had thought it was simply someones arty depiction of the Seraph, but that pic in the second attachment is exactly the same, so clearly it is official artwork of a Mark 2 version.

Edit: And a third artists depiction.
 

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Graugrun

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Although this post is perhaps not strictly within the realms of this webpage, I hope that Admin don't mind me posting it anyway...

In terms of missile updates, SAAB (Sweden) has just announced that they have completed the integration of their top selling Giraffe radar (range?) with the Umkhonto missile (pictured). It's significant as the Giraffe family of radars have been extremely successful and include within the 25 odd users countries, the likes of the USA (as the AN/SPS-77(V) 1 series installed on their new Littoral Class Combat Ships), Canada, the UK and France.

I would assume that the biggest reason this was done is due to the Algerian navies new MEKO-A200 class of frigates, which are both being supplied with the Sea Giraffe AMD G band 3-D radars and Umkhonto air defence missiles. Or is it as a result of the future South African GBAD ground based air defence requirements?

No matter the reason it should provide a significant boost to the attractiveness and therefore sale-ability of the Umkhonto missile. The Umkhonto missile itself appears to be on a constant upgrade path, as per the article I posted above relating to the nose cone development, although not always massive upgrades, they rather seem to be a series of steady smaller upgrades and incremental improvements, which will hopefully maintain it's relevance and lethality on the global market.

That is until 'Project Marlin' takes over, or compliments it...?

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/swedish-and-sa-defence-groups-create-joint-anti-air-system-from-their-products-2016-09-09
 

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Graugrun

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Okay - some updates from the AAD2016 show... First off is the Umkhonto EIR (extended range) prototype.

The main aim is obviously extended range, moving from the current missile (who's range has already been extended twice, from 12 Km to 15 Km and then on to 20 Km), the second objective was to develop and incorporate a newly developed dual pulse rocket motor (DPRM). The third objective was to update and refine many of the of the electronic sub-components (mostly to gain the benefit of reduced size, weight and power requirements of newer electronic components etc).

The missile is now longer by about 40cm (whereas the previous range extensions were completed with no alteration to the missile's dimensions), taking its length from 3,32 meters odd to nearly 3,7 meters. This still fits comfortably within the current ship launched containers, whose internal length is about 4.5 meters.

This now takes it's maximum range out to 30 Km and adds the flexibility of activating the 2nd stage DPRM to suite the engagement scenario - higher speed to shorten flight to to a closer target, or extending the range out to the full 30 Km.

The new rocket motor also increases the EIR missile's speed to Mach 2.7, as apposed to the standard Umkhonto's Mach 2.2. The large 23 kg warhead size for a missile of this class is retained.

Apparently this development is being pushed more for the GBADS requirements, rather then a naval one. In terms of further range extensions, once the nose cone being developed comes into play, it will add at least another 5 Km's, taking the EIR to 35 Km's plus. Also once developed, the 'old' Umkhonto will cease to exist and the new EIR will become the standard Umkhonto offering (and replacement for existing Umkhonto users).

Mock-up missile is pictured in front of the GBADS truck mounted land launcher.
 

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JakobS

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Some great info about the Umkhonto-EIR!

Is there any info at all about what they are thinking with the Umkhonto-R? Or is it that going to be handled by the Marlin in SAM-mode?
 

61M

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The top box looks like it was cut in half.
I've seen this on SAHV mockups before. Anyone know why ?
 

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I took a couple of pics at AAD 2016 that I still need to post - this is one of them, it was hung under one of the pylons of the Mwari, outboard of a pylon with two Mokopa missiles attached. Speaking to one of the chief designers, he stated that a team from Denel arrived and placed it on (as per prior arrangement), but it was the first time he had seen it and also did not know what it was exactly. Obviously a PGM of some type - however unless it's just a mock-up purely for promotional purposes, I have not seen or heard of this weapon being developed or available from Denel.

Not at all out of Denel's ability and technical reach, however can anyone out there tell us anything more about this 'new' PGM (name/project name/technical details)?

BTW - apologies for the watermark, I am just finding so many of my pics and scans appearing on FB and other sites, sometimes with other people putting their own watermarks on and claiming the pics/scans as being their own!
 

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Graugrun

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Thanks Lastdingo - what you say makes sense, it's most likely a watered down version of the Umbani/Al-Tariq's laser guided sensor option (or maybe it's the newly developed IIR version). No one at the stand could tell me anything more about it. Looks actually in many ways like the more cost effective option on all levels (to the Umbani/Al-Tariq).
 

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Some info I got at the last AAD (2016) show concerning mini gas turbine development (specifically for PGMS and missiles) that I have been meaning to share for a while now.

There has been a sudden re-resurrection in terms of South Africa's development in this regard over the last 2 years or so. As per my earlier posts in this thread (#84 and #102 specifically), the 1980's project Apartment has also been widely mentioned and covered in these and other posts.

Here are some pics of the 200N micro gas turbine in development by Cape Aerospace Technologies (CAT), with CSIR help and guidance. It apparently will quickly become the top turbine in the enthusiast/model hobby market should they get it to match their projected specs. It's also an important step in getting a new (or rather renewed) grassroots level of expertise growing within the South African gas turbine development environment. Once perfected, it can also be scaled up to start meeting the 600N and perhaps even the 1000N thrust ranges. Once thus up-scaled, it will start matching the criteria for military PGM's etc. I suspect that Umbani/Al-Tariq or Raptor III could be a potential receiver of these higher thrust turbines - this will dramatically extend their range and combat flexibility. Naturally various existing and new UAV's being developed could benefit from this gas turbine range.

The bottom pic is my own - the top pic shows the difference in physical size to the project Apartment turbine and is off of the CAT website. There are some differences in the pics of each one respectively, more than likely earlier and later development versions.
 

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Graugrun

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So while the above micro gas turbine is in essence more aimed at the hobby market and as a test bed (and perhaps for smaller PGM/UAV applications), this 1000N (1kN) turbojet is a much more serious design in terms of military applications. It was as of August 2016 in the detailed design phase, so it should by now be something pretty real. Quoting from a CSIR dossier, the following relates to both this turbojet, as well as the above posted micro turbine:

"the core for both designs are based on mixed flow compressor design, simultaneously enabling high mass flow and pressure ratios in single stages. The compressors that have been tested thus far all show that the designs should meet their targets. The technology has many potential applications and spin-offs."

Later the article goes on further to say:

"there are many variant designs possible; for instance, by adding turbine stages or converting the engine to bypass engines with higher thrust for helicopter applications and UAVs, respectively".

Speaking to the principal engineer, he told me that they has specifically gone the turbojet route with the 1 kN project as it was a rough and tough design that could pretty much handle anything thrown at it. My pic below depicts a 1:1 scale model of the turbojet, made using a 3D printing process. It's a fair bit larger than the 200N design - at about a third longer and much wider IIRC. He also indicated that the combustion chamber could easily be lengthened, allowing for in-flight relight, or more importantly for military purposes - the ability to launch at high altitudes. This I think perhaps alludes to the project Apartment's potential short-coming, in that it might only have been capable of ground start/launch (in a high oxygen density environment). I assume project Apartment would have been further developed for air launch - but before that could happen the French stepped in and offered us their Micro Turbo turbine (initially denied to us, but when they saw we were getting it right on our own....). As mentioned above the new turbine could grow into a far more powerful one, including a bypass version.

The new turbojet does not have any oil mist lubrication in order to comply with international ITAR regulations, it's current theoretically calculated range without any lubrication is about 300km's. There is however certainly a requirement for a much higher thrust design than just 1kN, so we are definitely going to see more from this project in the future.

I was told that the (black) air inlet portion at the front of the turbojet was simply added on to the model for demonstration purposes only, and certainly is not something that has been correctly calculated and tested in any way.

I think I might have some more info on it somewhere, as soon as I find it I will post more on this project....
 

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flateric

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http://www2.anac.gov.br/certificacao/svant/Apresetacoes/16_Certificacao_Civil_e_Militar_de_VANT_DENEL.pdf
 

kaiserbill

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Very interesting. I wonder what is driving the renewed interest in these small turbines?
I also wonder what the potential upper scale thrust could be? Project Apartment was 3kN as far as I recall, putting it firmly into cruise missile power territory.
 

Graugrun

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Graugrun said:
As per the posts in the "Various aviation projects from South Africa" thread, in the Postwar Aircraft Projects section, I have decided to post this here as it relates specifically to cruise missile use -

I chatted to the lead engineer from CSIR on this project, and in essence he mentioned the following:

1. There is a strong international need/requirement that has been placed on them, hence the Resurrection of the program (plus a local need).
2. He dug up the project "Apartment" program purely as a starting point for the project, so as not to 'reinvent the wheel' - however his initial designs will differ quite a bit (much lighter, smaller, more powerful and more fuel efficient).
3. He has commissioned Stellenbosch University and a small private company to design and build a 200N turbojet engine for radio controlled models use. This could have easily been bought off the shelf, however the aim was to produce our own and obtain the basic knowledge and grounding, allowing them to develop larger stuff later. They have completed the 200N project (I will post pics later).
4. The University and small company are now busy with designing the 600N advanced cycle turbine for Glider sustain-er purposes - and to further increase their ability.
5. He has a request to produce a very compact engine (could be the 600N mentioned above, or perhaps the new 3 kN model, developed from project Apartment?), for the Raptor III as per my post above. Although the lead Engineer on the Raptor III told me that he is free to choose any gas turbine engine he wants - so if CSIR don't make it in time, I guess Denel is going elsewhere. He will end up on a 6.6 kN model at the end of this project (so -200N, then 600N, then 3.3 kN, ending with a 6.6 kN engine).
6. He mentioned that there were a few other projects, other then project Apartment on the go in the 80's and 90's, without elaborating...
7. He seemed to indicate that he will be working on developing a turbofan as his project (as opposed to the turbojet that project Apartment is) - perhaps this will be the 6.6 kN version.
8. The reason project Apartment was terminated (even though it was showing very good promise), was that the French quickly decided to supply us with one of their own turbojets (Microturbo?), as soon as they saw that we were getting it right, they obviously thought it better to get the sale and prevent a new competitor in the micro turbo market. Apparently what we bought from the French was then used in Skua (although the accompanying sign mentions that project Apartment was as a replacement for the Skua turbojet).

Below are some pics of project Apartment model as per the show - I am not a professional photographer and battled a bit with the perspex case covering the engine, so please forgive the poor quality of my pics.
Ok Kaiserbill - so to both answer you and for better reference and continuity purposes, I have quoted my own post (#84) above. The above was written directly after my AAD 2016 visit and therefore with a very fresh memory...

So looking back at my notes, I have now posted a pic of the (CAT) 200N Micro turbine as per point 3 - It seems that this will be developed into the 600N version for glider sustain-er purposes (civilian applications IIRC).

The 1000N/1kN turbine model I posted after that is the military specific development - I guess that they are starting with this as the core building block to verify and then test it all out. Once this core has matched expectations and theoretical projections, they will upscale it to a 3.3kN thrust model (specifically for the Raptor III requirement - which then should also cover Umbani/Al-Tariq should there also be that need). Finally ending up with a 6.6kN model, which I guess will be powering something pretty big (far bigger than your average cruise missile), so perhaps a fairly large UAV?

Whatever it all entails, there are certainly going to be some interesting times ahead for us in terms of new weapons and other (UAV?) developments. We would simply carry on buying more French micro-turbo's if it were not the case... With regards to what is driving this sudden resurgence of mini turbine development, I can only guess that there is a definite (more than likely foreign) client requirement/s that they are working to.

So in essence this is the 'new' Project Apartment, picking up where it left off in 1988 and building on it and diversifying on it quite dramatically too.

Two more pics of the 1kN model (different angles) - IIRC, it was about 40cm in length and about 20cm in width, excluding the black air inlet vane (the little slide lock on the inside of the cabinet door should also be able to give you some sort of size reference).
 

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Graugrun

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A bit of a change in direction from my above last posts - this time something more on the Cheetah C-RAM missile, currently being developed.

I assume it will work on the CLOS/Semi- Automatic CLOS principle (very cost effective and simple), although I could be wrong here. pictured is both the mock-up missile, as well as a scale model depicting it's deployment layout in conjunction with the Oerlikon Skyshield radar and 35mm (upgraded) guns. The Oerlikon radar usage is to both keep costs down and to increase potential client opportunities.

I actually do have the brochure somewhere, but seem to have mislaid it and a whole pile of the newer stuff I collected at AAD 2016... As soon as I find it, I will scan and post it too.

There is a call for a cheap type C-RAM system, in terms of our many deployments up in Africa as part of various U.N. forces. The U.N. camps are often located near to towns and cities, where every now and again mortar or other light weapons are fired into the camps at night, from positions within the surrounding civilian towns or cities. This makes retaliatory fire near impossible, so a system like this to eliminate the threat without causing collateral damage is needed. It should be available for testing in about 2 years time from now.

Let's hope they get it right and well within budget/cost per shot expectations.
 

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kaiserbill

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:eek: Very interesting Graugrun...I wonder if it is based on Umkhonto or Darter components.
 

Graugrun

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Kaiserbill - I would suspect more tech would be used from the Umkhonto missile program - it's much more matured, cheaper and lower tech (thus cheaper) than the A-Darter program.

Obviously a big part of the Cheetah C-Ram missile program is to get to a very low cost per round - also as per my picture below, the Umkhonto program had already made provision for a very cost effective CLOS version (bottom missile), specifically for those cash strapped countries operating in a low tech military environment (threat).
 

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kaiserbill

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Very interesting. .it's further along than I thought.
Interesting tidbit too that A-Darter will finish its final acceptance tests before year end..so in a matter of weeks.
 

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Here's an interesting article published in the then official SADF/SANDF magazine "Salut" in April 1995. It covers some of the development of the South African LRAAM Ramjet BVR Air- Air missile project (See from posts #25 to #35 on page 2 and 3 of this thread). It states that the project began in 1986 with multiple tests of 127mm and 230mm sized boosters occurring three years later in 1989. Final tests of 2 X 180mm Mach 2.3 capable missiles successfully took place in 1994.

I have never mentioned it before, but I have been told for the last 7 years or so that this technology was sold off to MBDA for use in their Meteor missile...? This was by someone who was and still is very connected in weapons development, and has a very good understanding of the industry in general. I certainly believe that at least Taiwan must have bought it. This might explain why with the current Marlin BVR missile program, we are using conventional propulsion instead of Ramjet propulsion (that I believe we should be doing) - because sadly we just don't own the IP anymore....
 

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Trident

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Graugrun said:
I have never mentioned it before, but I have been told for the last 7 years or so that this technology was sold off to the British for use in their Meteor missile...?
Seems unlikely - the Meteor ramjet is not a British area of responsibility (developed by Bayern-Chemie of Germany).
 

Graugrun

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An interesting article on how Denel has been speeding up both the development and integration of both the A-Darter and Marlin missiles for the past while. They have also been able to make quite a large cut in integration costs too - this should interest many air-forces out there who want to achieve the same results, with new weapons they want to place on their aircraft.

It also provides a little bit of an update on the Marlin missile (BVRAAM) development.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50926:test-pod-assisting-denels-missile-programmes&catid=90:science-a-defence-technology&Itemid=204
 

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Malaysia has just trialed their new Denel Ingwe (leopard) ZT-35 missiles - a short article from Janes Defence on that. The Ingwe has been Denel's bread and butter missile for some time now, I know that there have been projects to develop a very stealthy version and naturally there have been ongoing smaller upgrades to the missile's components over the years.

The question is, that since it's combat debut in 1987 - when are they going to replace it with something new..?

http://www.janes.com/article/78500/malaysian-army-trials-ingwe-missile
 

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Graugrun

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I originally posted this article in the "Space" section, however the below piece also relates very much to our nuclear missile program (dual use missiles), it's interesting in that the below is an official comment/admission to three test launches of MRBM/ICBM's - so I decided to add it here as well.


"In the 1980s the Overberg Test Range in the Western Cape was used for space launches. Four South African space rockets were built, and three launched between 1989 and 1990, but without useful payloads. In the 1990s funding for South Africa’s space programme dried up and as a requirement to join the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) in 1995, South Africa was forced to destroy much of its key facilities and technologies, including the launch pad at Overberg. However, the site has retained most of its space launch capabilities, including mission control centre, radar and telemetry tracking facilities, and range safety systems."

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51386:south-africa-to-increase-focus-on-space&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107
 

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So here's some very interesting news concerning the supposedly defunct Mongoose 3 missile(?) being the long range part of the LEDS close in vehicle protection system. So there is the short range (and well tested I believe) Mongoose 1 (5-20 meters), Mongoose 2 that reaches out to 60 meters and in this article they are talking about 300 meters for the Mongoose 3, or even up to a Km!

I have coincidentally just found some info on the early developments of the LEDS system and the Mongoose 1 - as soon as I get it scanned I will post.

It's a pity this program was short funded (and therefore very delayed), as we really were ahead of pretty much all other such close in vehicle weapons protection systems at the time!

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51913:firsts-for-denel-dynamics-in-close-area-protection-system-development&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105
 

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Graugrun

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On another note, Janes Defence has just reported that Denel Dynamics has successfully concluded a live test of the Marlin BVR missile's radar seeker (and the missile) - it was fired at a Locats target earlier this year.

So things are getting rather close to fruition for the Marlin program!

http://www.janes.com/article/80588/denel-tests-bvr-missile-seeker
 

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Graugrun

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Some more detailed info on the Mongoose 3 missile (Janes Defence), although I seem to have more questions than answers after reading the article... I suppose I'll have to wait a few months more for the AAD show to be able to find out more. I really thought it would be a much smaller missile and restricted to armour (tank) close in protection - it seems to be something else though...?

Your comments, thoughts...?

http://www.janes.com/article/80959/denel-dynamics-sheds-light-on-new-c-ram-missile
 

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Graugrun

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Thanks Kaiserbill!

Here is another, more detailed article by Janes that covers the Mongoose 3 and Cheetah C-Ram development, it now clears up any confusion I had as to the roles/functions of the missiles. Looks quite nifty but could be a bit expensive to use in certain scenarios... Interesting the diverse amount of applications they have for it, plus the Piff/Paff type type rocket motors, doing away with the need for a trainable launcher in the tank/vehicle self protection mode.

I strongly suspect that they have an international order/contract to develop this (together with the Marlin BVR missile), I cannot see how they would get the necessary development funds and go-ahead otherwise.

http://www.janes.com/article/81207/denel-dynamics-unveils-layered-c-ram-system
 

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61M

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Interesting they don't really market it as a naval CIWS option. Sounds like it could work well as a bolt on type launcher for ship defence similar to RAM.

Graugrun said:
Thanks Kaiserbill!

Here is another, more detailed article by Janes that covers the Mongoose 3 and Cheetah C-Ram development, it now clears up any confusion I had as to the roles/functions of the missiles. Looks quite nifty but could be a bit expensive to use in certain scenarios... Interesting the diverse amount of applications they have for it, plus the Piff/Paff type type rocket motors, doing away with the need for a trainable launcher in the tank/vehicle self protection mode.

I strongly suspect that they have an international order/contract to develop this (together with the Marlin BVR missile), I cannot see how they would get the necessary development funds and go-ahead otherwise.

http://www.janes.com/article/81207/denel-dynamics-unveils-layered-c-ram-system
 

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61mech said:
Interesting they don't really market it as a naval CIWS option. Sounds like it could work well as a bolt on type launcher for ship defence similar to RAM.

Graugrun said:
Thanks Kaiserbill!

Here is another, more detailed article by Janes that covers the Mongoose 3 and Cheetah C-Ram development, it now clears up any confusion I had as to the roles/functions of the missiles. Looks quite nifty but could be a bit expensive to use in certain scenarios... Interesting the diverse amount of applications they have for it, plus the Piff/Paff type type rocket motors, doing away with the need for a trainable launcher in the tank/vehicle self protection mode.

I strongly suspect that they have an international order/contract to develop this (together with the Marlin BVR missile), I cannot see how they would get the necessary development funds and go-ahead otherwise.

http://www.janes.com/article/81207/denel-dynamics-unveils-layered-c-ram-system
61 Mech - you are quite right, it could work very well as naval CIWS option, being vertically launched it has much more flexibility in terms of fitment and placement on a ship, and with a 10km range it seems to out range the RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile by 1 Km, so yes, they hopefully will be offering it in that role too.
 
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