South African missiles/rockets/PGM's - Prototypes, Projects, Concepts, etc.

Graugrun said:
Some nice updates on nearly the whole range of missiles Denel Dynamics is developing, testing and manufacturing. Some new ones are mentioned as well.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53093:denel-dynamics-develops-new-missiles&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

There seems to be a typo in the press release. It refers to P2 as a "surface-to-air munition" but the rest of the description makes it clear that it's an air-to-surface weapon, basically a small guided bomb (similar in scale to Griffin-A?).
 
Thanks for spotting their error TomS!

Further to the article in my post #199 above - the following are (1st pic is my own my speculation) of three of the UAV type weapons mentioned in it:

1st pic - is perhaps a basic concept model of the P2 (14 kg, ground to air UN-powered small diameter weapon - medium range)?

2nd pic is a model of the Impi-S (15 kg, inertial/semi-active laser-guided missile - 6 km range).

3rd pic is the larger Impi missile (25 kg, inertial/semi-active laser-guided missile - 10 km range).
 

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An update on the CAT range of micro gas turbine engines, ranging from 120 to 400 Newton models (see my previous post #176).

Most interesting to me is the mention of them featuring a fuel-atomising direct kerostart system, which also enables a relighting capability for high-altitude starts - I take this to mean the capability to launch PGM's/cruise missile type weapons from an aircraft.

https://www.janes.com/article/83092/power-up-aad18d1
 

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Thanks for those nice pics 61mech! - good to see some of the range in comparison/relation to each other, also it's great to finally get a decent sized pic of the elusive Impi missile (a mock-up's good enough for me). I'll add in some of my own pics soon.

In the meantime, some more info on the 1000N Gas Turbine- it's now named the SED-1000x.

As can be seen by the big change in the internal layout, a different direction in it's design has been taken (compare to my post #180), it's now much more conventional in it's layout and is also pretty much frozen in terms of it's final design - It's about 50cm long and 25cm wide. Testing of the compressor section is scheduled for March 2019, and I guess that the complete system will have been tested (fully?) by the end of 2019. One of the designers told me that he would more than likely scale it up (3,3 kN I mentioned in post #180?), and then go on to use it as a core for a turbofan model/version.

I still suspect that a foreign client is behind the need for this and once developed, they will buy the IP for it and produce it themselves..?
 

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Graugrun said:
I still suspect that a foreign client is behind the need for this and once developed, they will buy the IP for it and produce it themselves..?

China, you think?
 
Grey Havoc said:
Graugrun said:
I still suspect that a foreign client is behind the need for this and once developed, they will buy the IP for it and produce it themselves..?

China, you think?

No - someone geographically more in the middle of us (South Africa) and China...
 

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new PGM's developed by Denel ?
 

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Here's the official brochure for the Cheetah missile/Oerlikon Skyshield Force Protection System. I got this at AAD 2018, and the Denel guys at the stand told me that Denel was actually approached by Rheinmetall Defence to develop the missile for them. I was also told that interestingly enough, by Rheinmetall's various calculations, it would be cheaper to fire a Cheetah missile at an incoming C-RAM target, then to fire a short burst (about 4 rounds per twin gun) of AHEAD ammunition at the target!!!
 

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Here's another update on the Brazilian defence minister's visit to Denel Dynamics, this one is in more detail. He was briefed on the A-Darter, Marlin and Umkhonto missiles in particular. Very interesting to have confirmation that the Umkhonto R (Radar) has been contracted for development and production (for Algeria?), hopefully this will incorporate the EIR extended range dual pulse rocket motor. Interesting that apparently the Brazilians (who will be ordering the A-Darter AAM for their 36 new Gripen E/F fighters) might be interested in an Air-Air version of the Umkhonto, as a BVR missile for their Gripens. Perhaps they need it soon and don't want to wait for the Marlin, which might still take a few years of development... Or that they may be interested in it's commonality should they utilize Umkhonto in the SAM role too (for it's military, since their navy has opted for the CAMM SAM from MBDA?).

https://www.defenceweb.co.za/featur...ster-briefed-on-denel-dynamics-missile-range/
 

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Another (FEb 2019) article on the Al-Tariq and newer low cost PGM's - interestingly it's claimend that the PGM's and even the Al-Tariq, have also been intergrated onto the F-16E's as well as the Mirage 2000-9's - quote below:

"At the opposite tip of the range, EDIC’s Barij Dynamics (formerly part of Tawazun industry) is producing guidance kits for large guided bombs specifically used by the UAE Air Force’s Mirage 2000-9s and F-16E Fighting Falcons. After starting production of the Al Tariq dual mode (GNSS/INS) guided bomb kit based on that of the South African Denel Umbani and producing a fold-out wing kit that extends the bomb range to over 100 km (from 40 km), either grafted to the nose of Mk.81 or Mk.82 explosive bodies.

More recently, Barij Dynamics has initiated production of the low-cost Sejeel guidance kit for Mk.80 series bombs which turns these dumb bombs into guided ammunition that can be programmed with differing attack profiles, including off-axis and moving target capability. Most interesting on show was the strap-on kit for the 1-ton Mk.84 weapon used on the centerline pylon by the UAE Air Force Mirage 2000-9, just like the French Air Force does today on its Mirage 2000 D fighter-bombers flying over Syria and bombing Daesh outposts from their Jordanian secret H4 base."

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/idex-2019-edic-from-bullets-to-heavy-guided-emirati-bombs
 

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Graugrun said:
Some nice updates on nearly the whole range of missiles Denel Dynamics is developing, testing and manufacturing. Some new ones are mentioned as well.

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.p...evelops-new-missiles&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

There seems to be a typo in the press release. It refers to P2 as a "surface-to-air munition" but the rest of the description makes it clear that it's an air-to-surface weapon, basically a small guided bomb (similar in scale to Griffin-A?).
And I am here. ;)
 
I am intresed in UAE defense industry and wonder of these weapons are of Denel origins?

Thunder P31
Featurette Image

GuidanceRelease
GNSS/INS only (CEP 10m)Standard NATO 14”
SAL seeker + GNSS/INS (CEP 3m)Ejection release unit
WeightDetonator
Gross weight: 140kgImpact fuze
Warhead: 110kg
Range (released at M0.95, target at sea level)
Release altitude 40,000ft: down range: 19km; cross range 5km
Release altitude 30,000ft: down range: 15km; cross range 4km
Release altitude 20,000ft: down range: 10km; cross range 2km
Range (Released at 300kn CAS, target (at sea level)
Release altitude 35,000ft: down range: 17km; cross range 4km
Release altitude 30,000ft: down range: 15km; cross range 4km
Release altitude 20,000ft: down range: 10km; cross range 2km
WarheadDimensions
Standard general Mk81 aircraft bomb2055mm
ThunderP32
GuidanceRelease
GNSS/INS Only (CEP 10m)Standard NATO 14”
SAL seeker + GNSS/INS (CEP 3m)Ejection release unit
WeightDetonator
Gross weight: 240kgImpact fuze
Warhead: 209kg
Range (released at M0.95, target at sea level)
Release altitude 40,000ft: down range 14km; cross range 4km
Release altitude 30,000ft: down range 12km; cross range 3km
Release altitude 20,000ft: down range 8km; cross range 1km
Range (released at 300kn CAS, target at sea level)
Release altitude 35,000ft: down range 13km; cross range 3km
Release altitude 30,000ft: down range 12km; cross range 3km
Release altitude 20,000ft: down range 8km; cross range 1km
WarheadDimensions
Standard Mk82 aircraft bomb2480mm
Featurette Image
Thunder P4
Featurette Image

GuidanceRelease
GNSS/INS Only (CEP 10m)Standard NATO 30”
SAL seeker + GNSS/INS (CEP 3m)Ejection release unit
WeightDetonator
Gross weight: 1150kgImpact fuze
Warhead: 907kg
Range (released at M0.95, target at sea level)
Release altitude 40,000ft: down range 16km; cross range 4km
Release altitude 30,000ft: down range 15km; cross range 4km
Release altitude 20,000ft: down range 13km; cross range 3km
WarheadDimensions
Standard Mk82 Aircraft Bomb4630mm
Desert Sting
DesertStinGSYSTEM
The Desert Sting system provides a high-altitude drop-launched, un-propelled guided kit system. Offering 100-, 129- and 176-calibre options, Desert Sting uses aerodynamic tail control to reach the target. An inertial measurement unit and global navigational satellite system measurements guide the system to the pre-programmed target coordinates. A semi-active laser seeker can optionally be fitted to enhance precision.
These systems offer the flexibility of configuration with multiple fuze options, including impact, height-of-burst (HOB) and proximity.
Desert Sting - 5
Featurette Image

GuidanceRelease
GPS/INS Only (CEP 10m)Gravity release unit
SAL seeker + GPS/INS (CEP 3m)
WeightDetonator
Gross weight: 10kg
Warhead: 5kg
Impact fuze
Optional proximity fuze with HOB sensor
Range (released at 150kn CAS, target at sea level)
Release altitude 30,000ft: down range 18km; cross range 15km, back range 8km
Release altitude 18,000ft: down range 12km; cross range 9km, back range 5km
Release altitude 10,000ft: down range 6km; cross range 4km
Dimensions
Length 650mm
Diameter 100mm
Desert Sting - 16
GuidanceRelease
GPS/INS (CEP 10m)Gravity release unit
SAL seeker + GPS/INS (CEP 3m)
WeightDetonator
Gross weight: 23kg (optional 15kg)Impact fuze
Warhead: 15kg (optional 7kg)Proximity with HOB sensor
Range (released at 150kn CAS, target at sea level)
Release altitude 30,000ft: down range 16km; cross range 13km, back range 7km
Release altitude 18,000ft: down range 11km; cross range 8km, back range 4km
Release altitude 10,000ft: down range 6km; cross range 4km
Dimensions
Length 1000mm
Diameter 129mm
Featurette Image
Desert Sting - 35
Featurette Image

GuidanceRelease
GPS/INS (CEP 10m)Gravity release (negligible recoil) or Pyrotechnic, Electric or Pneumatic Activated Ejector.
SAL seeker + GPS/INS (CEP 3m)
WeightDetonator
Gross weight: 50kgImpact fuze
Warhead: 35kgProximity with HOB sensor
Range :(released at 150kn CAS, target at sea level)
Release altitude 30,000ft AGL: down range 16km; cross range 13km, back range 7km
Release altitude 18,000ft: down range 12km; cross range 9km, back range 4km
Release altitude 10,000ft: down range 11km; cross range 8km, back range 4km
Dimensions
Length 1300mm
Diameter 175mm
Contact
 

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Tyrin - humble apologies for the very belated reply, yes it seems like most of the weapons featured in your post are indeed Denel designs. One or two of them I'm not familiar with, however they are more than likely just new designs.

Attached below is a scan from Janes IDR (November 2004) showing an early version of the Umbani (now the Al Tariq) - interesting that they mention the possibility of a tractor type rocket being able to be placed within the nose part of this PGM.
 

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Another project with so much potential, but just did not get the necessary government funding and backing that it deserved... The later versions of the LEDS 100 and 150 are in service with a few countries IIRC, it sadly could and should have achieved so much more..! I will post some more info/pics on the various hard kill projectiles soon.

Article from Janes IDR November 2004.
 

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Thx for posting! I always wondered what had happened to the Saab LEDS 150 and 300. Saab purchased major parts of Grintek but it seems Saab did not invest further in the LEDS projects. Looking forward to your postings regarding hard kill systems.
 
The following was posted on the South African DefenceWeb site (October 2006) https://www.defenceweb.co.za/land/land-land/saab-markets-local-vehicle-defence-tech/?catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

So it had already then proved itself against APFSDS rounds during tests in 2006 - SAAB did invest in it, however without a big order and a big chunk of investment money, it has not become the system it should have. It is still used and sold today, but as the passive LEDS 50 and 100 system, with only softkill options AFAIK...

"From science fiction to battlefield fact, SA technology can now shoot down rocket propelled grenades before they hit their target.Saab, the Swedish hi-tech arms group, is marketing a South African technology that can shoot down rocket propelled grenades (RPGs) before they hit the launch vehicle, and the US Marine Corps is interested, it says.

Saab (formerly Grintek) Avitronics developed the Land Electronic Defence System (Leds) at its Centurion facility, using a building-block approach. Leds combines “soft- and hard-kill” options with what the defence industry calls “active signature management to provide hemispherical and full spectrum active protection to land vehicles”.

The system consists of a “brain” called an active defence controller (ADC), a set of sensors, a high-speed directed launcher (HSDL) and countermeasure options ranging from fast deploying multi-spectral smoke and decoys (soft-kill) to rockets (hard-kill munitions) to destroy incoming threats. “It is a unique system,” says Wilfred Moore, Saab Avitronics` senior executive, marketing and sales.

The basic Leds 50 warns the crew of a vehicle fitted with the system that they are in the beam of a laser. In the military environment, lasers are used to designate targets for artillery and antitank guided munitions, as well as for range finding. The system can deal with up to eight threats simultaneously, while providing analysis on the nature of the threat based on the spectral band used. Leds 100 adds jammers and decoys, while Leds 150 adds the Mongoose counter-munition.

Hostile weapon
Leds 100 confuses enemy weapons operators and incoming rounds by deploying smoke in their line of sight or flight, hiding the target vehicle. The smoke and an optional infra-red jammer interfere with the acquisition and/or tracking, ranging, launching or guidance of a hostile weapon.

Leds 150 claims to destroy incoming RPG-7 rounds and antitank guided munitions with Mongoose at ranges as close as within 20 metres of the launch vehicle, allowing it to intercept rounds fired “from across the street”.

Moore said this would shortly be put to the test in what are called “full dynamic trials”, meaning Leds would have to detect the rocket travelling at 300 metres per second and fire back within a bare fraction of a single second if the round is not to hit the vehicle. Moore said no other system in use has that ability, and tests prove it: On 24 January, a Mongoose intercepted and destroyed a 105mm high explosive round fired from a tank at a muzzle velocity of 683 metres per second. In a previous test series, three Mongooses hit three fin-stabilised rods travelling at close to 1 500 metres per second, breaking their fins and deflecting them from their flight path with concentrated blasts, forcing them to smash into the ground within 150m of the point they were to hit, Moore added."
 
The capability of intercepting of APFSDS is pretty amazing; even more 15 years ago. Any info if the hard kill system program at Saab SA is completly dead?
Also wondering why there seems to be not much activity in developing light weight hard kill systems for combat helicopters given the wide spread use of RPGs and cheap shoulder launched missiles.
 
The capability of intercepting of APFSDS is pretty amazing; even more 15 years ago. Any info if the hard kill system program at Saab SA is completly dead?
Also wondering why there seems to be not much activity in developing light weight hard kill systems for combat helicopters given the wide spread use of RPGs and cheap shoulder launched missiles.
Basil - the idea of it being on a helicopter is interesting, but I suspect that it also has as much potential to bring down the helicopter as it does the incoming projectile. An idea I found more plausible (it may have also come from you), was to place the Mongoose 3 on a ship as the final close in weapons system, so just in case the Phalanx system or so does not get all the incoming threats - since the Mongoose 3 has something like a 3 Km range! Or just as a lighter and more cost effective CIWS for smaller ships...

The Saab SA program is still going, but to what extent I'm not sure.. I know that the Mongoose 3 system was tested out and that there is still some sort of active development on it. It would be great to find out more.
 
The ingenuity and cost efficiency of south african defense systems has a rather long tradition.
Regarding hard kill systems for helicopters - afaik there was some activity in this field in the US and in Israel some years ago


 
Well, well - you learn something new everyday - thanks for that input Basil!
 
SAAB sold the IP to Tata in India. They plan to integrate LEDS-150 on their T-90's. Hopefully they'll buy the Mongoose rounds from Denel, but the Indians are notorious for ignoring IP rights.
I wonder how much they'd need to do to get their C-RAM (Cheetah and Mongoose-3) system adapted for naval use. I know they've integrated with Oerlikon Skyshield gun-based air defence system. Don't be surprised if the Saudi's are the first customer. They actually used their Oerlikon Skyshield systems to defend their oil facilities that were attacked a few months ago.
They've used an open architecture to integrate different radars for Umkhonto, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same for the C-RAM project.
The interceptor is also sized so that four can fit into an Umkhonto naval surface-to-air missile canister according to Denel. If they get it right, they'll have quite a unique Naval product.
 

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So it seems Saab has no intention to develop a tank based hardkill system further in SA.
 

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