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South African Indigenous Naval Projects?

glmm

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Unfortunately, I don't have much else on the DESCUBIERTAs or their underlying B&V design. Will check the LELA Presse book on th A69s as I don't recall mentioning any relationship between those two!

In any case, PROBABLY the SAN wasn't looking for something too complicated/expensive in the early 1970s. The Portuguse ships were VERY austere and it's evident that if the South Africans were interested they weren't thinking on adding medium range SAMs. Of course, the BAPTISTAs could have received Exocet or any SSM in this class (a couple Gabrile/Skorpionen would have fit nicely for sure), a medium gun of modern design (either an OTO or a French 100mm auto), some AA guns and a EW fit plus a reasonable hull sonar.

My hyphotesis is somewhat confirmed by the fact they did order a couple A69s (another rather austere design). Those ended in Argentina and probably those ships were as build for the SAN when they were handed over, as the Argentine navy was in a hurry to receive them. If that is the case, they were as austere as their French siblings and basically the same except for some changes in electronics and replacing the ASW rocket launcher for another gun (a twin Breda Bofors, although early on they got a recycled open mount which was very vulnerable as shown during the Falklands war).

In the end, the SAN ordered SAARs, which are a fast version of the BAPTISTA/A69 conceptually and probably worse in several areas (habitability, maintenance costs, seakeeping....). They weren't really designed to operate in REALLY open waters like the South Atlalantic/Indian ocean with atrocious weather, had rather short legs and heavy maintenance overheards. A nice ASuW puch, but no ASW capability. IMO, a less balanced election led by the fact not much else could be done at the time.
 

thebig C

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Gorka L Martinez Mezo said:
Unfortunately, I don't have much else on the DESCUBIERTAs or their underlying B&V design. Will check the LELA Presse book on th A69s as I don't recall mentioning any relationship between those two!

In any case, PROBABLY the SAN wasn't looking for something too complicated/expensive in the early 1970s. The Portuguse ships were VERY austere and it's evident that if the South Africans were interested they weren't thinking on adding medium range SAMs. Of course, the BAPTISTAs could have received Exocet or any SSM in this class (a couple Gabrile/Skorpionen would have fit nicely for sure), a medium gun of modern design (either an OTO or a French 100mm auto), some AA guns and a EW fit plus a reasonable hull sonar.

My hyphotesis is somewhat confirmed by the fact they did order a couple A69s (another rather austere design). Those ended in Argentina and probably those ships were as build for the SAN when they were handed over, as the Argentine navy was in a hurry to receive them. If that is the case, they were as austere as their French siblings and basically the same except for some changes in electronics and replacing the ASW rocket launcher for another gun (a twin Breda Bofors, although early on they got a recycled open mount which was very vulnerable as shown during the Falklands war).

In the end, the SAN ordered SAARs, which are a fast version of the BAPTISTA/A69 conceptually and probably worse in several areas (habitability, maintenance costs, seakeeping....). They weren't really designed to operate in REALLY open waters like the South Atlalantic/Indian ocean with atrocious weather, had rather short legs and heavy maintenance overheards. A nice ASuW puch, but no ASW capability. IMO, a less balanced election led by the fact not much else could be done at the time.
Thanks Buddy
The B&V design being a template for the A69s is refered to several places on the Net (however reliable that is:p). Yes, the Argentines purchased the actual SAN vessels as an emergency measure during the Beagle cricis in 78. They later ordered a 3rd vessel.
You are probably correct regarding them being an austere design. I have seen some refs indicating that the weapons compliment was virtually the same as the batistas. On the other hand was was probably distracted by another source refering to an 1800 ton variant of the Batistas which hints at a much more sophisticated weapons fit.
Yep, the SAARs were really only intended for littoral operations in "enclosed seas"! Aparently they were very cramped....there are stories on another site about crew being forced to doss in the aft gun bay:)

C
 

glmm

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Just checked the MARINES Editions book on the A69 class. No mention at all is done of foreign designs and, really, the design looks very French. The design was done in the late 1960s and was rather quick, but I cannot find any link with B&V. In fact, the book acknowledges that going for a mack type stack (in vogue at the time) was a mistake, although the twin funnels of the B&V design isn't mentioned.

The design was created as a replacement for the LE FOUGEAUX and L' ADROIT class corvettes/avisos and ASW on shallow waters was and intitial requeriment (shallow water meaning under 200m) and their role as support ships for SSBN leaving and getting into Brest is mentioned. They were also to be cheap and able to deploy to distant waters like French Territories de Outre Mer which are as far away as Asutralian waters.

There's an interesting note on a follow on A70 design, bigger and with an helo pad and Exocet as a follow on to be built alongside the low-end A69s. Budget realities in the late 1970s shot the project down and no more information is included.

The size of the DUBA-25 sonar transducer and dome is quite impressive for the overal size for these vessels (80m).......
 

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Gorka L Martinez Mezo said:
Just checked the MARINES Editions book on the A69 class. No mention at all is done of foreign designs and, really, the design looks very French. The design was done in the late 1960s and was rather quick, but I cannot find any link with B&V. In fact, the book acknowledges that going for a mack type stack (in vogue at the time) was a mistake, although the twin funnels of the B&V design isn't mentioned.

The design was created as a replacement for the LE FOUGEAUX and L' ADROIT class corvettes/avisos and ASW on shallow waters was and intitial requeriment (shallow water meaning under 200m) and their role as support ships for SSBN leaving and getting into Brest is mentioned. They were also to be cheap and able to deploy to distant waters like French Territories de Outre Mer which are as far away as Asutralian waters.

There's an interesting note on a follow on A70 design, bigger and with an helo pad and Exocet as a follow on to be built alongside the low-end A69s. Budget realities in the late 1970s shot the project down and no more information is included.

The size of the DUBA-25 sonar transducer and dome is quite impressive for the overal size for these vessels (80m).......
Hey Gorka

Apologies for the delay in replying!

As far as I'm aware the only reference (which may have been quoted here) to the A69 being related to The B&V designs or the Joao Coutinho/Baptista de Andrade class is Wikipedia. Whilst its not as bad as people often make out its not 100% correct.

You can see how that idea may have been arrived at though. The Joao Coutinhos were partly built in Spain and Germany. The later Descubietra Class directly built on this design based on the knowledge Spain acquired. So, I'm assuming people attributed the same to the Meko 140 design, when in fact that has more in common with the much larger Meko 360s used by Nigeria and Argentina, in that it is a modular concept with flexible beams/lengths.

Its harder to see how the A69s would be attributed to this basic design, apart from the fact that they were designed in the same era and have a very similar beam. Its notable that the Irish and Icelandic OPVs of this era have a very similar beam but a totally different hull form. Chalk and Cheese.

I hadn't heard of the A70 design before. Actually there is another thread featuring several A69 based derivitives. Most are identical apart from weapons and sensor fit differences, as demonstrated by the final A69 ordered independently by Argentina which has some British equipment. The most different design features a 6m stretch along with reduced beam and draft. It was an export proposal which failed to achieve any sales. I don't think it had aviation facilities though, apparently French designers looked at this option for the A69 but felt that the design was maxed out.

I have seen one or two references(which I can no longer find online) to a proposed successor/export concept based on an updated Commandant Riviere Class frigate. As you know, this design was already quite flexible as 4 were sold to the Portuguese as the Joao Belo Class which have some design differences. Likewise, one of the French vessels was fitted with CODAG propulsion which increased range radically. Supposedly, it was designed in the late 60s/early 70s and was approx. 100m , 2-2500 tonnes. Armament could range from a basic gun (opv) frigate to a full asw suite. I think there was to be a flight deck/hangar. Could this be the same design??

C
 

glmm

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The RIVIEREs are older ships, designed in the 1950s. Designed as "avisos" (smaller warships designed to be based on Territories de Outre Mer; in fact the design was initially known as the "Union Francaise" in the peacetime aviso model. There was to be the option for a heavier armament in case of war) for peacetime use and general escorts during wartime, there were many proposals before the final design was frozen and construction ordered.

They were used as a testbed for new weapon and systems, including rotary free turbine engines and CODAG, using a gas turbine derived from the Atar 8 turbojet.

The most dependable models were those fitted with diesel engines, and this was the powerplant chosen by Portugal for their JOAO BELO derivatives.

There were several design proposals based on the basic design, with various weapon mixes and the option of a small pad an hangar for a Alouette III class helicopter; these weren't taken by the Marine Nationale and I have no idea about how hard these were offered in the export market; not even the A69s seems to have been very aggressively marketed unlike the ubiquitous LA COMBATTANTE FPBs or the DAPHNE/AGOSTA subs, built at the same time as the A69s. As discussed, the original sale to South Africa was pretty complex and following a convolute process and these were resold to Argentina (with the AGOSTAs also ordered by the SAN ending in Pakistan).

There's a nice book on the COMMANDANT RIVIEREs, "Les avisos-escorteurs Type Commadant Riviere" by Patrick Hovy-Bezaux and Jacques Ducros, edited by LELA Presse in 2009, which covers the development of the original project as well as the derivative proposals, but unfortunately is centered on the French vessels; the BELOs aren't mentioned at all, and the information on the ships sold to Uruguay is scant.

The powerplants are well covered, in case someone is curious.

The basic design had a good upgrade potential as showed by the Portuguese upgrade job (SQS-510 sonar, more modern electronics....) which was itself rather austere for budgetary reasons. The French navy, having more modern ships at hand made minimum alterations (MM38, modern decoy dispensers, better comms) to their ships before retiring them. Curiously enough, the very short ranged DUBA 3 "attack" sonar was well adapted to mine detection ins trials made during the Gulf War
 

thebig C

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Hey Gorka

Thanks for all that info buddy! Sorry, I probably dragged the discussion off topic by bringing up the Rivieres, but I was wondering was the supposed successor I had vaguely hear about, the A70 that you referred to. As it happens, its probably more then likely that the vessel I am thinking of is one of the unbuilt derivatives you mention. I agree its a wonder that the French didn't push this design more, as I understand the upgraded Portuguese vessels did surprisingly well in NATO simulations. Furthermore, they seem a much superior design in certain respects to the Normand and Corse Classes also designed in the 1950s.

C
 

kaiserbill

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Gorka L Martinez Mezo said:
They were used as a testbed for new weapon and systems, including rotary free turbine engines and CODAG, using a gas turbine derived from the Atar 8 turbojet.
Any further info on this marine ATAR 8?

Did it get any further applications?
What sort of power was it rated at?
 

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kaiserbill said:
Any further info on this marine ATAR 8?

Did it get any further applications?
What sort of power was it rated at?
The marine gas turbine was designed Turbomeca M38 (I have also seem is designed Turboma M38 or Turbomeca M78. Go figure...) and was rated at 7825kw/10640CV (11040kw for the Atar 8) in normal use or 8600Kw/11700CV for emergency use. It was an axial flow gas turbine with a 10 stage compressor section and an annular combustion chamber with 20 fires, modified to use marine diesel. It rotated at 4700rpm in the low pressure area.

One turbine was used aboard the BALMY, coupled with two high speed (1200rpm) AGO diesels. The turbine and its ancillary equipment took the forward engine room while the diesels were in the second engine room. There were several gearboxes coupled to the gas turbine/diesels so the single, fully reversible screw worked at 275rpm.

The BALMY had larger fuel tanks and was was very economical when running the diesels, with a range of 11000NM vs 7000NM for the conventionally powered vessels. However, the M38 turbine was very uneconomical, with a consumption of 310g/hp/h, and the fuel consumption at 18 knots tripled when the turbine worked alone with diesels uncoupled.

I have no idea if this gas turbine was used aboard any other vessels, but looks like it was pretty inefficient.

On the A70 follow on design, it was to be based on the A69 hull.
 

glmm

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The AR1200 seems about right; according to the book on the A69, the follow on A70 was to kept the original hull with different electronics and weapons. Two versions were proposed: one mounting and helicopter pad (the hangar is not mentioned, but I guess it should have fit) and the other armed with four Exocets. According to the text, plans were abandoned in 1975. Of course, that doesn't means the design couldn't be interesting for the export market.

So maybe this AR1200 is the export version of the A70 requested by the MN........
 

thebig C

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Yep, I remembered reading about it here ages ago and thought it might fit the bill.

I guess we'll never know though. In this day and age when almost every design has numerous renders floating around the Net, we forget that at one time all that might be in the public domain was a few lines in a trade publication. In most cases the drawings never left the Shipyard.

C
 

kaiserbill

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Been chatting to a fellow forum member, and he jogged my memory about an indigineous project.
IMT ( Institute of Maritime Technology) had an indigineous torpedo development called the A44.

This was a basically a Mk44 lightweight torpedo type body fitted with a directed energy warhead and a new homing system.

They were also apparently working on a South African heavyweight development derived from the French E14 torpedo.

Does anyone know whether any of these made it into service.

Any pics or further info?
 

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The A44 is mentioned in Jane's and the US Naval Institute Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems up to 1998 edition. However, it doesn't tell you if the weapon was produced.

The Mk44 is also the basis for the very successful Italian A244 series, so it isn't surprising the SAN, cut from major providers, would invest in an update of the Mk44. These widely used up to the 1980s and were based in 1950s technology, so any kind of upgrade would be not too difficult to implement and provide good returns. In fact, the German Navy kept theirs at least into the 1990s as they performed better in shallow waters (Baltic and North sea are pretty shallow) than the Mk46. The main handicap of the Mk44, its slow speed, wouldn't be a problem to someone targeting diesel subs with a top speed under 20 knots. Of course, the Mk44 became obsolescent once nukes with a top speed of 25 plus knots appeared, the Mk46 upping the bar to 40-45 knots to fill the speed gap.

No idea about a South African design based on the E14. This was a shortened E12, designed to fit into the shorter aft tubes of the DAPHNE class and other short torpedo tubes, so probably wasn't the best start for a new design. South Africa probably got the E12/14 and the L3 for their DAPHNEs (and maybe the unguided Z) and probably the E12 would have been a better core for a new torpedo development, with more internal volume. The E series were passive homers to engage surface vessels and snorkelling subs, so an active/passive homing head would have been a truly advanced. Plus a more powerful engine/battery combo to up the rather slow 25 knots top speed.

Note the French F17 was based on a 6m body, one meter less that the long E12 and were able to fit wire guidance (although the original model was still a passive homer).
 

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Thanks Gorka.

The pdf below has some info on the upgrading of the Daphne class submarine in the South African Navy.

Project RAKA and Project NICKLES, as mentioned earlier in the thread, were upgrades to the Daphne class as well as projects to develop technology by way of these upgrades for integration into the indigineous submarine (Type 209 derivitive).

The pdf mentioned the various electronic and habitation improvements, but also stated that an entirely new indigineous battery pack, of local design and manufacture, was fitted into the Daphne Class, which provided increased endurance and a marginal increase in speed (underwater?)
One would assume that the A44 would have featured improved propulsion over the Mk44 too.

All this was aimed ultimately at the new submarines to be constructed, so again I assume there must have been a reason related to this for choosing the E14 as a starting point for the new torpedo?

Of course, there may be confusion, and the E14 might not have been the starting point as mentioned in the article I read.
Perhaps it was the E15, or a local version of that by way of the E14?
The E15 is basically a longer ranged E14 which is lengthened with more battery capacity and a heavier warhead, according to my elderly Janes Fighting Ships 86-87.


"The French, Spanish and South African DAPHNE's have been
modernised with the Pakistani's reputed to be interested in further
modernising their boats. It
would appear that the French and South Africans went different ways in
their upgrades.
The Marine Nationale replaced the DUUA-1B active/passive sonar
with a prominent sonar dome for the new DUUA-2B. The dome is
generally referred to as an
igloo. Likely upgrades include some of the Operations Room electronics and the weapon system most likely
modified to accept the more modern L-5 anti-submarine torpedo.
South Africa, faced with an arms boycott and no hope of replacing it's submarines in the medium to long term, embarked on anambitious upgrade of the combat ability of the DAPHNEs in service. This was achieved in two successive refits for each submarine,spanning nearly ten years.
The first involved improving the combat radius of the boats significantly. This was achieved by increasing the onboard fuel carrying capability. The result is that the South African boats ride with a slight positive trim on the surface compared to their foreigncounterparts. This can best be seen at the stern which rides deeper.
The second upgrade involved the combat ability of the submarines and is far more extensive than would appear from the outside. The complete Operations Room of the submarine has been redesigned with modern solid state micro-chip technology of local design and manufacture replacing the older valve technology equipment. Most of the combat functions of the equipment have now been automated. The only external evidence of this upgrade are new communications- and ESM mast heads.
A third upgrade involved the submarine battery, the SAS MARIA VAN RIEBEECK being the first boat fitted with the new locally designed and built submarine battery. Dived endurance improved and indiscretion time (snorting) reduced. Dived maximum speed also improved."
 

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Graugrun

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Kaiserbill is correct, there was a project to develop entirely new (silver zinc) batteries for the A44, this was successfully completed. The propeller blades where being left as is (too much money and effort for too little return to re-design them).

The improvement was primarily to cover the following:

1. New modern sonar and guidance unit
2. New hollow charge warhead (300mm - designed to defeat the double wall pressure hull, plus center water layer of some of the bigger Soviet subs)
3. New tech silver-zinc batteries for improved endurance/speed - speed now at 32 knots with a 6 minute endurance

Generally improved reliability and of course lethality.

I suspect that they got as far as producing at least a few units, from what I gleaned from one of the IMT A44 project guys at a defense show. He made no mention of working on the larger E12/14 torpedoes, however it stands to reason that this would have followed once the A44 project had been proved successful and the necessary experience gleaned from it.

Once I can start posting pics, I will scan and post it's brochure (and some pics I took at the show, if I can find them...).
 

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Nice Graugrun.

Once again, good to have you posting again!
 

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I know the SAN DAPHNEs were upgraded with whats appears to be a modern, integrated, combat data system. Probably the sensor fit was upgraded as well, but looking at available pictures, few exterior changes seems to have been made, although the sensors themselves may have been upgraded. Even using the original "wet ends", moder computer processing can do wonders. The Spanish AGOSTAs just got a new digital processing system for their cylindrical bow arrays which have created an essentially new sonar system; surely something similar could have been done to the South African subs.

I have also read about South Africa getting modern torpedoes (SUT being specified), which could have been provided by friendly states like Chile or Taiwan, so maybe a new, heavy weight torpedo wasn't a major need. Upgrading the Mk44 seems a much more reasonable project and within the grasp of the indigenous industry. Not to mention there were examples of successful upgrades to the Mk44, most significant the Italian A.244 series. Of course, SUT would need a new FCS computer of upgrades to the original system; French DAPHNEs kept their old analog FCS computers and were capable of using the wire guided F17 torpedo so the possibility existed. Of course, a modern, computerized system would have been able to fully exploit the weapon capabilities.

About batteries, is one of the most critical "expendables" for a diesel sub; if South Africa had no previous capability to produce large marine accumulators, developing such capability was critical to keep the SAN submarine fleet going.

A general complaint to French submarine designs, up to the AGOSTAs, is that they were very maintenance intensive. IIRC, a DAPHNE needed a 13 month major overhaul every five years, which means a lot of money and time. Later these maintenance periods seems to have been somewhat extended and the Spanish Navy ended with a seven year cycle for the AGOSTAs. German subs like the 209 seems to have more widely spaced major overhauls. And, of course, not all navies can provide "by the book" maintenance.....
 

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Thanks for the very interesting input Gorka.

IMT certainly did develop wet ends, apparently good enough, that they were then also used as the wet ends for the new Meko A200 frigates and the new Type 209 subs we bought. I had some in-depth info on the combat suites, unfortunately not any more, however I still have some basic info that I will soon scan and post, it would be good to get your insight and comments on that when I do.

Interesting about the SUT's - I know a retired Rear Admiral that I can ask more about that (I had heard something in that line, however I understood that they were bought after the fall of Apartheid).
 

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In Helmoed Romer Heitmans South African Armed Forces from 1990. he mentions:

The most recent of these projects has been the modernising and upgrading of
the Daphne class submarines. These boats have been regularly refitted and
modernised since they were purchased. The recent programme concentrated on
upgrading their control rooms, totally replacing the Action Information System
and the integrated weapons control, navigation, and communications systems.


Perhaps more surprisingly, their sonar system has also been replaced by a
locally developed system of appreciably greater performance.



A major element of the programme has also been miniaturisation, allowing the
greatly enhanced capabilities to be more compactly - and more conveniently -
'packaged' than the original fit. The original plot table and the two large
'cupboards' of the fire control system, for instance, have been integrated into
a multi-mode electronic display screen system. Other aspects of the refit and
modernisation included the upgrading of the power generation and distribution
system and the incorporation of a greater degree of automation. The new
electronic systems were all developed and manufactured in South Africa.


The modernisation was felt by the navy to "quantum leap" in the technology of
the 'submarine' systems. and to extend their useful life into the next
century.
 

glmm

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Graugrun said:
Thanks for the very interesting input Gorka.

IMT certainly did develop wet ends, apparently good enough, that they were then also used as the wet ends for the new Meko A200 frigates and the new Type 209 subs we bought. I had some in-depth info on the combat suites, unfortunately not any more, however I still have some basic info that I will soon scan and post, it would be good to get your insight and comments on that when I do.
I was under the impression SAN 209's were fitted with the standard CSU-90/ISUS-90 sonar/command and control system as used by late model 209s and 212/214 models, with a South African ESM/ELINT system by Grintek.

On the A200s, I have the Thales UMS4132 Kingklip as the main sonar set.

Interesting about the SUT's - I know a retired Rear Admiral that I can ask more about that (I had heard something in that line, however I understood that they were bought after the fall of Apartheid).
My source was from Chile and looks like the program was started in the mid 80s, although it may have been proceeded with in post Apartheid years. Chile had close relations with the South African military during the Bush war and I know of Chilean personnel being seconded to the SAAF and SAA and used mostly on intelligence work against Cuban forces operating in Angola, even being aboard the SAAF ELINT 707s on intelligence gathering missions. Chile had access to SUT torpedoes, so a torpedo deal wouldn't have been unusual.
 

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Kingklip is an Afrikaans local name for a species of the Cusk Eel that occurs in South African waters along the West and South West coast.
Apart from SA's Valour class, the sonar is also used on Indonesias Sigma class, Moroccan Sigma class, and UAE's Abu Dhabi class.

Part of the various Industrial participation of the recent arms deals was overseas investment into various local South African defence companies that had previously been set up to service the local sector during the sanctions period.

An example is Cassidian Optronics SA, a Pretoria suburb based company who were previously part of Denel Optronics and who produce advanced submarine periscopes and other advanced (including aviation) optronics, then bought out by Carl Zeiss Optronics, then became Cassidian as part of EADS.
They design and manufacture periscopes for foreign customers to this day, 9 of which were delivered in 2013.
From what I can gather, South Africa has built/exported 25 SERO and OMS periscopes over the last 10 years.

Thales have a similar buy-in with a local subsidiary, but with original tech designed locally.

Again, all of this is reaping the rewards of the initial technology capability and development programmes involved with the original local indigineous submarine, and other, programmes.
 

Graugrun

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Gorka L Martinez Mezo said:
Graugrun said:
Thanks for the very interesting input Gorka.

IMT certainly did develop wet ends, apparently good enough, that they were then also used as the wet ends for the new Meko A200 frigates and the new Type 209 subs we bought. I had some in-depth info on the combat suites, unfortunately not any more, however I still have some basic info that I will soon scan and post, it would be good to get your insight and comments on that when I do.
I was under the impression SAN 209's were fitted with the standard CSU-90/ISUS-90 sonar/command and control system as used by late model 209s and 212/214 models, with a South African ESM/ELINT system by Grintek.

On the A200s, I have the Thales UMS4132 Kingklip as the main sonar set.


Interesting about the SUT's - I know a retired Rear Admiral that I can ask more about that (I had heard something in that line, however I understood that they were bought after the fall of Apartheid).
My source was from Chile and looks like the program was started in the mid 80s, although it may have been proceeded with in post Apartheid years. Chile had close relations with the South African military during the Bush war and I know of Chilean personnel being seconded to the SAAF and SAA and used mostly on intelligence work against Cuban forces operating in Angola, even being aboard the SAAF ELINT 707s on intelligence gathering missions. Chile had access to SUT torpedoes, so a torpedo deal wouldn't have been unusual.

Hi Gorka, you are correct - However I was referring to the "wet ends" - more on that later, you are also quite correct regards Chile, BTW we were also going to set up a joint G-6 self propelled gun production line with them (Cardon?) amongst others.

Anyhow - here is some more info on the A44 torpedo upgrade, a pic of a cutaway model I took at DEXSA 92 or 94 (just visible behind it is the witness plate showing the 300mm HEAT round penetration capability) and a brochure of said product.
 

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Graugrun

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As per my promise above, some basic info on the sub/surface combat suites etc that we developed (how much we did ourselves and how much help we got, if any - I don't know). I just recently found the much more in-depth info that I thought I had thrown away on this, it's in photocopy format though - still I will scan it soon and post..

It would be good to have Gorka's input on this.
 

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kaiserbill

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I assume much of these systems are translated from the indigineous sub project.

From what I can gather, after the blueprints were bought, the impetus was placed on building up local capaibilities to not only build the vessels, but to equip them with locally built systems.
I believe the Daphne upgrading saw some of the systems technology from this inserted into them.
 

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From what I remember what you say sounds pretty much correct Kaiserbill.

The below detailed article pretty much answers all the questions - and makes for an interesting read, particularly regards our free play exercises with the US Navy and the Royal Navy (From Military Technology 9/1995). Note too the insert regards the torpedo evaluation facility, more proof of us also being able to upgrade our torpedoes at the time.
 

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Nice post Graugrun.

Some nice detail in there that fills a few gaps.
 

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Thanks Kaiserbill - here's some info, this time on the Strikecraft upgrade - interestingly, my understanding is that we had developed and where using our own solid state electric drives (for the 76mm gun training and elevation), even before the original designers OTO Melara had. Electric drives offer higher accuracy, faster slew times, far less fire hazard and weigh much less/take up less volume than the original hydraulic drives. This article comes from Jane's Defence Systems Modernisation, December 1995.
 

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You've got a very informative bunch of attachments, Graugrun.
Thanks for posting these.
 

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As per the comments particularly in the first pages of this thread, this is an official drawing from an ADS (African Defense Systems) brochure from about 1996 IIRC, covering all the different components they could provide for the then upcoming new submarine - corvette/frigate purchases (if people want I could post the whole brochure).

ADS came about from the amalgamation of Teklogic and UEC Projects (companies who's various upgrades and products are mentioned in the articles I posted above - Subs/Strikecraft upgrades).

It seems very possibly to be one of the proposed frigates for the SAN, when the arms embargo was still in place. Note how it makes heavy use of existing components from the Strike Craft.... (I left the sentence in above, so that the viewer can see it definitely comes from a ADS brochure) - there was unfortunately nothing mentioned regards this picture anywhere in the brochure though.
 

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That appears to be the Bazan F592 frigate from the mid 1990's which ties in with the brochure date of around 1996.
This can be seen in the link provided on Page 1 reply 7 of this thread.

Post up that brochure, Graugrun.
Another excellent post, btw.
 

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Graugrun said:
From what I remember what you say sounds pretty much correct Kaiserbill.

The below detailed article pretty much answers all the questions - and makes for an interesting read, particularly regards our free play exercises with the US Navy and the Royal Navy (From Military Technology 9/1995). Note too the insert regards the torpedo evaluation facility, more proof of us also being able to upgrade our torpedoes at the time.
Very interesting info!

It's a pity there appears to be no pictures of the South African DAPHNEs control rooms roaming on the net; as these have been retired quite a few years ago I hope some day they'll surface.

So far, looks like the equipment being described here would "fit" in the small DAHPNE control room. Note that they did not modify the "wet end" of the main passive search sonar (I suppose they refer to the DSUV-1 mounted in the bow) as it would be the most complex item to modify. The DUUX passive rangefinder and other assorted sonars seems to have been upgraded. The active element wasn't the one mounted in the Spanish and French upgrades, as they kept the small timble radome and the six DUUX ranging elements could have been replaced easily, as well as the HF sonars mounted in the sail, both fore and aft. It would be interesting to see a picture of the first upgrade to compare with the French efforts. The Spanish upgrade put the DAPHNEs as close as possible to the GALERNA/AGOSTA on equipment, probably to ease training ans maintenance.
 

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Many thanks to all for the informative posts above!!

C
 

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kaiserbill said:
That appears to be the Bazan F592 frigate from the mid 1990's which ties in with the brochure date of around 1996.

Post up that brochure, Graugrun.
Herewith the rest of the brochure as requested, note that they were certainly punting both the intercept and conformal arrays as part of their "South African" added content offering. They (and CSIR/Mattek) had certainly developed conformal arrays many years before, thus it makes sense that they would have replaced the Daphne's wet ends as part of those upgrade programs - and the wet ends must also have worked very well for them to have been confident enough to offer them as equipment for the new subs (Type 209/Mod 1400). I am not sure sure of the new Type 209's getting all South African wet ends, it just makes sense to me though, hopefully someone with deep insight can enlighten us.

The one pic of the Sub's potential sonar and combat suite, could potentially be the same arrangement as per the Daphne update (same as in the B/W pic, 1st page of the above Sub article).

BTW it's also interesting to see we had developed a new torpedo fire control system.
 

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Gorka L Martinez Mezo said:
Very interesting info!

It's a pity there appears to be no pictures of the South African DAPHNEs control rooms roaming on the net; as these have been retired quite a few years ago I hope some day they'll surface.
This is all I could find for you - sorry about the faces, it was given to me on the condition that I blur them out (although they are more than likely just journalists). These pics seem to have been taken a good while after the Daphne's were decommissioned, judging by the very tatty condition of the seats etc, and also the various wire looms/plugs hanging out (from equipment that has been removed).

I would say that the pics in the two above articles/brochures I posted, are indeed the same or at least a close analogy of what the upgraded South African Daphne combat system looked like.

I will post some in depth stuff regards the sonar wet ends we developed soon.
 

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I wonder which model Type 209 submarine blueprints were purchased in the 1980's?
Type 1400 similar to that in service with Chile in 1984 perhaps?
I suppose that sort of info is very well buried though.
 

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Graugrun said:
This is all I could find for you - sorry about the faces, it was given to me on the condition that I blur them out (although they are more than likely just journalists). These pics seem to have been taken a good while after the Daphne's were decommissioned, judging by the very tatty condition of the seats etc, and also the various wire looms/plugs hanging out (from equipment that has been removed).

I would say that the pics in the two above articles/brochures I posted, are indeed the same or at least a close analogy of what the upgraded South African Daphne combat system looked like.

I will post some in depth stuff regards the sonar wet ends we developed soon.
This could be the SAS JOHANNA van der MERWE/ASSEGAAI, currently a museum exhibit: http://www.navy.mil.za/museum_submarine/inside_ops_room.htm


You're right, the brochure images seems to depict the equipment fitted to the upgraded Daphne's. Also, the array shown in the brocure seems to have been small enough to have fit into the small chin dome of the DAPHNE. I don't know how much this could have improved sonar capabilities, but surely would have been a huge improvement over the 1950s vintage DSUV-1, itself based on the 1940s GHG!
 

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I've been reading a pdf about various sensors that were developed back in the day.

Kentron developed a complex targeting sight for the navy, called the Potter Targeting Sight.
At least one prototype, but possibly more, was built.
Unfortunately, neither a timescale nor for what type of vessel it was meant for is mentioned.
It is mentioned apart from the indiginous periscope programme, so I think it was meant for surface vessels.

Does anyone have any further info?
 

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Sorry Kaiserbill, not heard of the Potter Targeting Sight at all..

Here's a brochure though on the (proposed, not yet built) 42 Meter Trimaran being offered by Veecraft Marine (just recently bought out by the Paramount Group) for the recently approved project Biro 4 - 6X Offshore Patrol Vessels.

Link to IHS Janes: http://www.janes.com/article/34678/south-africa-s-opv-project-gets-green-light
 

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An interesting 3D sonar development by the CSIR - this article (below) came out two years ago at AAD 2012, however I forgot about it until they had the prototype sonar in the flesh at AAD 2014 for me to take a pic of. We seem to have a thing for sonars - I will soon be posting some more info/brochures on other CSIR sonar developments of the past.
 

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