SNCASE (Sud-Est) « Durandal »

Archibald

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Built by a public firm, the Durandal would have been the only serious competitor to the Mirage III (the Breguet sirocco remained paper bound, and the Trident II was rocket-powered)
It even flew 8 months before the Mirage III (April 1956 Vs Novemeber) and had the same performances (mach 1.5 whithout rocket, Mach 1.8 with rocket, mach 2 with the future Atar 9)

Sadly, the SNCASE was the weak firm, and merged with another firm, ending Durandal development in Spring 1957.
I searched data about two durandal derivatives
- the durandal IV (mach2 with the Atar 9)
- the durandal M (for the Aeronavale)
 

overscan

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http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fighter/se212.html

Pictures, drawing, article (in Russian) of the original Durandal.
 

Jemiba

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Here's what I've found in Cunys "Les Avions De Combat Francais" about Durandal
derivatives and follow-on projects :
- the Durandal IV
- the Durandal IVM (navalized)
- a version with the Atar M-23, high wing, lateral intakes and a skid undercarriage
- and the SE X-222, the ultimate development of the Durandal
 

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Archibald

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Jemiba, that's fantastic!! Exactly what I hopped... I wanted this book for my birthday one month ago, but they send me the book about... Vought :'( :mad: I will try again :p
 

Archibald

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What the hell is the Atar M-23 ? Something related to the super-Atar of 1958 (9 to 12 tons of thrust, I also search data about this engine ;)
 

Jemiba

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It would have had 4500 kgp (?) thrust and the design should have been
capable of Mach 1.3 and an altitude of 18,000 m without an additional
rocket engine. That's all I could find, although maybe it is mentioned
in regard with other designs, too.
It's a shame, but reading french still is quite difficult for me. But it's getting
better. Today I know, it's a pity, that I was more interested in reading
comics during my french lessons at school, than to try to learn. And I
know, it's nearly useless, to tell it to my kids .... ::)
 

elmayerle

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I found the design evolution interesting. Especially the change in inlets as the performance increased. Mind you, it's what I'd expect given the relative efficiencies and regimes of efficiency for the different inlets. *smile* I can't help but think of a different approach being taken and Durandal derivatives with a F-16-style inlet (much as the Vought V1100 derived from the Crusader) or the fully-variable inlet that was studied for an advanced F-16.

Anyone have ideas in how to model this in 1/72? I'm thinking that a 1/72 crusader nose and inlet would be too big, perhaps use a 1/100 one?
 

elmayerle

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Sentinel Chicken said:
elmayerle said:
or the fully-variable inlet that was studied for an advanced F-16.
Oh, now see, you can't just say that without going into MORE detail, Evan!
If memory serves me - I don't have the AIAA paper in front of me - it was a wide and narrow 2-D inlet with the forward portion on the bottom. I keep wanting to build a F-16XL model with it and replace the standard vertical tail with the proposed all-moving one that used a standard F-16 horizontal tail.
 

Archibald

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I thought that the Durandal IV would have had the Atar-9 of 6000kgp to reach mach-2, because the Mirage III followed the same path.
The III-01 from november 1956 had the Atar-101 (4500kgp) but the III-A from may 1958 had the Atar-9C.
Elmayerle, there's no model at all of the durandal :-[
Considering the basic durandal design, with a frontal air-intake ala
F-100 I had imagined that a radome would have been necessary...(exactly like on the F-86D and F-100I designs)
Dassault was more wise and draw the Mirage III directly with side air-intakes.
I think I will make a durandal IV model to complete my breguet 1120 after all both were competitor for the Aeronavale.

Any drawings about the Mirage V (the naval proposal of 1956, not the well-known Mirage III derivative)
 

Jemiba

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Mirage V, navalized III ...
 

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Archibald

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Bloody hell!!! This Mirage III has a TAIL !!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
Thanks for the drawing, Jemiba !!!!
 

Archibald

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;) and the fuselage/ tail combo looks like a Super Etendard...nice machine!!!
 

TinWing

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Archibald said:
Bloody hell!!! This Mirage III has a TAIL !!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
It also appears to have leading edge slats - just like the Mirage 2000 that actually appeared over 20 years later.

I can't be sure, but I wonder if wing sweep was slightly decreased, as it was for the later Mirage 2000?
 

Archibald

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When one knows that the landing speed of a "pure-delta" Mirage III is something like 200kt, we can understand better why Dassault added a tail and leading edge slat.. the same thing for forward vision at high AoA... a delta without FBW is not compatible with a carrier...
Apparentky there was two naval Mirage III this early project
(Mirage V) and a standard Mirage III with a tail hook (Mirage IIIM). I thought they were the same...
I'm seeking datas about the navalised Mirage F-1 prototype, the F-1M which flew in the 70's but was rejected in favor of the Super Etendard ??? ??? ??? ???
 

frank

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a delta without FBW is not compatible with a carrier

So how did the Douglas F4D operate off a carrier?
 

TinWing

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Archibald said:
I'm seeking datas about the navalised Mirage F-1 prototype, the F-1M which flew in the 70's but was rejected in favor of the Super Etendard ??? ??? ??? ???
This is entirely new to me. The Mirage F-1 has a suitable approach speed, but I never knew that a "navalized" prototype existed?

I have seen vague references to proposals, but nothing on actual hardware.

Was the concept of a navalized Mirage F-1 tied to the M53 engine?
 

Archibald

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Aparently no! There was a F-1E withe M-53, and anaval F-1M. but I dpn't know if a Mirage F-1 had been really modified with arrestor hook...
 

Tophe

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Funny: I have added a T-tail on my Mirage 2000 1/72 model, thinking this was what-ifing, joking... Had I seen before the drawing of the T-tail III and forgetiing it while my brains remembered somehow? ;D This was serious, so. Realist would say this is good, I may say this is less pleasant... :p
 

Archibald

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Je sais!!! J'ai immédiatement pensé a ton modele quand j'ai vu ce Mirage III empenné...!!!!! :eek: ;)
 

Archibald

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There's something I don't understand : on one hand, there's this fabulous Mirage V. On the other hand, there was apparently a Mirage IIIM, which was a basic Mirage III fitted with an arrestor hook. Why the hell Dassault proposed two naval Mirage? Maybe one in 1956-58 against the sirocco and durandal, and the IIIM against the Crusader in 1965 ?
PS I made a model of the Mirage V today...
 

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overscan

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Archibald: I appreciate your postings, but I would prefer self-built scale models to be posted in the appropriate part of the forum. You can link to them from here, but I want to separate "real" and "what-if" as far as possible.
 

hesham

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Hi Ivran,

it was early or initial design to SE-212,and all we have about it is here;
(From Jean Cuny "Les avions de combat Francais 1945 - 1960", Docavia)
 

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ivran

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thank you very much, nice
details
 

dan_inbox

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Why isn't this modelling-related discussion in the Modelling Forum section?
 

Stratodesigner

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There is a video of the Durandal in flight: seems to roll pretty well, not sure how hard it can turn. Landing speed seems fairly low, with a gross weight of 6000 kg maximum and a wing loading of 202 kg / sq m compared to 267 kg / sq metre of the Mirage 5 and 198 kg/m² of the Spitfire Mk 24. Range may have been limited, and I think the Mk 4 Durandal sought to correct this with increased fuel tank space behind the cockpit, but this is just speculation.

 

Arjen

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Stratodesigner

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Thank you.

This video has still pictures of the Durandal at 0:19 and 0:23. Full color film. Le Bourget 1957 what a time that was for jet aviation!


This film has the Durandal take off at 3:33 or so. Bumpy day? The plane seems to be a little unsteady on take-off.


The above color pictures I traced to this site:


Which has a rear view picture of the aircraft :




Some of these links found using Dogpile and French search engines, eg google.fr
 
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Michel Van

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Page 30 has an intriguing drawing of the Durandal 212C with presumably a rocket engine.
the french text say that study SE-212 Durandal
as interceptor they had the design overwork
with a jet-engine ATAR 101 G3 with thrust of 4 500 kgp
and rocket engine SEPR 65 with thrust of 825 kgp
(in 1950s the french study fast Interceptors with Jet/rocket engines )

They build two prototypes who flow in 20 april 1956 and 30 march 1957
It had certain irony that 212C as competitor to Mirage III, was the testbed for it's engine...
 

Archibald

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Anybody knows what happened to the two Durandal prototypes ? were they scrapped ?
 

Michel Van

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Anybody knows what happened to the two Durandal prototypes ? were they scrapped ?
french wiki on that
Les prototypes SE 212 servirent de banc d'essais aux réacteurs de la Snecma avant ferraillage.

ferraillage that's french for scrap

english wiki
Sections of the first aircraft were held in store during 2006 by the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace at Le Bourget.
 

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There is a video of the Durandal in flight: seems to roll pretty well, not sure how hard it can turn. Landing speed seems fairly low, with a gross weight of 6000 kg maximum and a wing loading of 202 kg / sq m compared to 267 kg / sq metre of the Mirage 5 and 198 kg/m² of the Spitfire Mk 24. Range may have been limited, and I think the Mk 4 Durandal sought to correct this with increased fuel tank space behind the cockpit, but this is just speculation.

lovely aircraft
 

Archibald

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Sections of the first aircraft were held in store during 2006 by the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace at Le Bourget.

I like when the english Wikipedia knows more than the French one... this is good news, although I wonder in which shape were those "sections". I fear the worse. If it is like the Mirage G8-02 or the Nord 2200... :(
 

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Archibald

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The early Mirages were even smaller, yet they matured into the Mirage III-01/A/C. The Durandal main issue was the nose intake, hard to fit a valuable radar there... unless going full F-86D style.
 
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