• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
11,799
Reaction score
201
 
Last edited:

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
1,658
Reaction score
31
It is only when watching this great footage of the S-67 in flight – especially when in Nap-of the-Earth profile, that I can see the rear tail-fin/landing gear being a potential problem.
It looks as if it would not take much to snag on trees or aerial wires etc….

Great find
Thanks Sferrin

Regards
Pioneer
 

JohnR

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
353
Reaction score
1
If carrying troops, how did they disembark? The wing seems to occupy most of the space where side doors would be.

Regards
 

yasotay

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,963
Reaction score
62
Thanks Sferrin, I had not seen that video in a long time. That was the first helicopter I wanted to fly. Given the success of the Mi-24 around the world I can only wonder at how well the S-67 would have done. As to the troops, like the Mi-24 there is a troop door near the windows in back, on the starboard side I believe. Sikorsky never really promoted the point as the US Army at that point was very much focused on the anti-tank mission for helicopters.

I have heard that the Israeli's were considering the aircraft until it crashed and the economics of a start up came to roost. Any one know if that was true?
 

Firefly 2

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
461
Reaction score
0
I've felt that a combination of Apache's and Blackhawks would have done well in the European theatre. This helo had some great lines though. What a design.

And you've got to love that 70's soundtrack.
 

avia.russian.ee

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Nov 21, 2006
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
An interesting video. But did it have enough room for "six fully equipped troops" ?
It's fuselage seems too thin for that purpose.
Just compare it to the Mi-24.
How was it possible to accomodate them inside? In tandem?
The helicopter looks too thin even for pilots.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
11,799
Reaction score
201
avia.russian.ee said:
The helicopter looks too thin even for pilots.
You ever seen a Cobra? ;)
 

Trident

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
820
Reaction score
18
The S-67 is by far the prettiest helo ever built!
 

Weaver

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Apr 1, 2008
Messages
47
Reaction score
2
Does anyone know in detail why the S-67 Blackhawk was judged as "unsatisfactory" by the US Army? It looks damn-near perfect to me! (Although Pioneer's reservations about the ventral tail fin struck me too...)

I'm particularly disappointed that Westland's didn't get a chance to licence-produce it for the AAC and the RM Commandos too, but that's really one for the What If? forum....... ;)
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
11,799
Reaction score
201
Weaver said:
Does anyone know in detail why the S-67 Blackhawk was judged as "unsatisfactory" by the US Army? It looks damn-near perfect to me! (Although Pioneer's reservations about the ventral tail fin struck me too...)

I'm particularly disappointed that Westland's didn't get a chance to licence-produce it for the AAC and the RM Commandos too, but that's really one for the What If? forum....... ;)
Cheyenne had a ventral fin as well and it didn't seem to bother the army. ???
 

Woody

Passionate about the advancement of technology
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
288
Reaction score
0
Website
www.freewebs.com
The Cheyanne for comparison - also a remarkable looking aircraft - perhaps the Valkyrie of helicopters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE0CrIup6Uc&NR=1

Cheers, Woody
 

frank

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
617
Reaction score
4
Some of the bigger Cobras do too.


sferrin said:
Weaver said:
Does anyone know in detail why the S-67 Blackhawk was judged as "unsatisfactory" by the US Army? It looks damn-near perfect to me! (Although Pioneer's reservations about the ventral tail fin struck me too...)

I'm particularly disappointed that Westland's didn't get a chance to licence-produce it for the AAC and the RM Commandos too, but that's really one for the What If? forum....... ;)
Cheyenne had a ventral fin as well and it didn't seem to bother the army. ???
 

TomS

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,177
Reaction score
101
Weaver said:
Does anyone know in detail why the S-67 Blackhawk was judged as "unsatisfactory" by the US Army? It looks damn-near perfect to me! (Although Pioneer's reservations about the ventral tail fin struck me too...)
First substantive post, so be gentle with me ;)

On DTIC, I found a copy of a 1972 S-67 flight characteristics evaluation (link at end of this post) that lists a bunch of handling issues that needed to be resolved, mostly to do with trim and torque, but also excessive nose-up on deceleration. Whether that would be sufficient to merit disqualification or not, I can't say.

I would suspect that the real issue was that the Army was having a serious rethink of its tactics for attack helicopters in the face of the deployment of ZSU-23-4 and SA-7/-8/-9 in Central Europe. Those systems made the high-speed glide/strafe attacks planned for Cheyenne and Black Hawk very risky indeed. The eventual Advanced Attack Helicopter requirement that led to Apache was based around NOE pop-up tactics instead (and lots of armor and redundancy).

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0771161
 

yasotay

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,963
Reaction score
62
Wonderful post. While I cannot say for sure that your thoughts on the Army's reasoning is correct, it certainly follows with what I have heard from some of those who were involved in decision making on Army rotorcraft. Because of the mission profile expected the in a Central Europe war the aircraft was not expected to operate over large distances and the hover/NOE profile was the only logical choice for operations of attack helicopters.

I suspect also that with the difficulties the Army had with the AH-56 effort, technically and politically, they were a bit less enthused about another potentially controversial aircraft. That is just a suspicion of mine.
 

Antonio

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Messages
3,364
Reaction score
36
I'm sorry for my ignorance, could you please tell me what NOE means?

Thanks in advance :)
 

Mark Nankivil

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
1,525
Reaction score
124
Anyone know of decent drawings for the S-67?

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

starviking

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2006
Messages
946
Reaction score
14

Attachments

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
169
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
If the Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk had been purchased by the United States Army, what would have been its designation? AH-61?
 

saturncanuck

Any landing you can walk away from, is a good one.
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
299
Reaction score
1
Website
www.aerofile.ca
Triton said:
If the Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk had been purchased by the United States Army, what would have been its designation? AH-61?
No, the YUH-61 and YUH-62 were flying in 1974 and, thus, the numbers were assigned prior to this. If the aircraft had been selected it would have been around this time, and the AAH competition would have never occured. So, the "Blackhawk" would have been the AH-63.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
11,799
Reaction score
201
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3712.0/highlight,s-67.html
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
2,257
Reaction score
82
I remember AH-3 - being son of the S-3 Seaking... Wasn't Iran interested by the chopper at one time ?
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
169
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
The Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, not be confused with the Sikorsky S-70 that become the US Army's UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter, was a prototype helicopter built with R&D funds in 1970. Like the Bell Model 309 King Cobra, the S-67 Blackhawk was an unsolicited response to the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne. The two seat helicopter was designed around the dynamic drive and rotor systems of the Sikorsky S-61, it was designed to serve as an attack helicopter or to transport up to eight troops in combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-67
http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/sik_s-67.php
http://www.helis.com/70s/h_s67.php
 

Attachments

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
11,799
Reaction score
201
(Maybe the S-67 threads should be combined? ??? )
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
169
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
sferrin said:
(Maybe the S-67 threads should be combined? ??? )
With the video you posted of the Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, sferrin?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3712.0.html
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
11,799
Reaction score
201
With the rest of the S-67 threads. There are four or five of them. That way there aren't two or three copies of every picture and so forth.
 

saturncanuck

Any landing you can walk away from, is a good one.
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
299
Reaction score
1
Website
www.aerofile.ca
Triton said:
The Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk, not be confused with the Sikorsky S-70 that become the US Army's UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter, was a prototype helicopter built with R&D funds in 1970. Like the Bell Model 309 King Cobra, the S-67 Blackhawk was an unsolicited response to the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne. The two seat helicopter was designed around the dynamic drive and rotor systems of the Sikorsky S-61, it was designed to serve as an attack helicopter or to transport up to eight troops in combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-67
http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/sik_s-67.php
http://www.helis.com/70s/h_s67.php
I love these pics... I hadn't seen them before.

Would have helped with my book it I had known of them
 

HeavyG

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Aug 21, 2009
Messages
73
Reaction score
0
In one of those pictures, there's a head-on view of one of the S-67's. I noticed some things sticking out of the wing; flaps, airbrakes maybe?
 

AeroFranz

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,157
Reaction score
18
The outer ones must definitely be airbrakes, since they have symmetrical upper/lower deflections. actually they look identical to the airbrakes on an A-6 Intruder.
 

F-14D

I really did change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
7
AeroFranz said:
The outer ones must definitely be airbrakes, since they have symmetrical upper/lower deflections. actually they look identical to the airbrakes on an A-6 Intruder.
They are definitely airbrakes (or "divebrakes"). They performed the function that on the AH-56 was handled by the variable pitch propeller. They allowed rapid deceleration without lifting the nose and also permitted the aircraft to safely dive bomb. Of course, had the S-67 started looking like it would actually be developed, and if they started talking too loudly about dive bombing, they would incur the same wrath from the Air Force that the Cheyenne did once the project folks there mentioned it could dive bomb.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,723
Reaction score
169
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com
General characteristics

* Crew: 2
* Capacity: 15 troops
* Payload: 8,000 lb (3,600 kg)
* Length: 74 ft 2 in (22.6 m)
* Rotor diameter: 62 ft (18.9 m)
* Height: 15 ft (4.57 m)
* Empty weight: 12,525 lb (5,681 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 24,272 lb (11,010 kg)
* Powerplant: 2× T58-GE-5 turboshaft engine, 1,500 shp (1,100 kW) each

Performance

* Never exceed speed: 230 mph (370 km/h in dive with ducted fan)
* Maximum speed: 193 mph (311 km/h)
* Range: 220 mi (354 km)
* Service ceiling: 20,000 ft (5,180 m)


Sikorsky S-67 Blackhawk image.
 

Attachments

Evil Flower

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
223
Reaction score
1
Do any more pics or drawings of the cockpit exist? I'm thinking about modelling this one for my portfolio.
 

Colonial-Marine

Fighting the UAV mafia.
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
626
Reaction score
6
I love the S-67 design, sort of like an American Hind I suppose. I highly doubt 15 soldiers could have fit inside however, that figure can't be right.

Any photos of the seating layout? And when it came to armor protection, any details?
 

mil

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
132
Reaction score
15
Who can help to find pictures or photos Sikorsky S-67 which have been made during the evropejsko-Asian tour across England, Germany, to Iran in 1974году before flight in Fornboro.
 

mil

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
132
Reaction score
15
I saw a document x-copy on our site
ATTACK HEWICOPTER EVALUATION, BLACKHAWK
S-67 HELICOPTER
George M. Yamakawa, et al
Army Aviation Systems Test Activity
Edwards Air Force Base, California
July 1972
I do not remember where it is located, but quality of copies of photos very bad, can eat this document with good photos Sikorsky S-67.
 

blackstar

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
1,682
Reaction score
12
mil said:
Who can help to find pictures or photos Sikorsky S-67 which have been made during the evropejsko-Asian tour across England, Germany, to Iran in 1974году before flight in Fornboro.
I cannot help, but can offer some negative information. I went through the Sikorsky archives and they do not have a lot of S-67 photos. A few dozen, but mostly pictures of it in flight, and mostly the promotional pictures. I think that is a dead end.
 

F-14D

I really did change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
7
Colonial-Marine said:
I love the S-67 design, sort of like an American Hind I suppose. I highly doubt 15 soldiers could have fit inside however, that figure can't be right.

Any photos of the seating layout? And when it came to armor protection, any details?
Belated response, just noticed this post.

The demonstrator was eventually fitted with a soundproofed, air conditioned cabin seating six , although the last two would have to be very good friends. From what I know of the proposed production version, this cabin would be expanded to seat eight combat equipped troops. There would be no access to or from the cockpit. Sikorsky was also talking about a (relatively) high speed troop insertion variant. This would have had a one foot wider cabin and would seat 12. I have seen that 15 number pop up in certain places, but like you I find it hard to believe.
 
Top