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Secret Wings of WWII: Nazi Technology and the Allied Arms Race - by Lance Cole

edwest

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The JIC's summary was ominious and its recommendations decisive:

Unless the migration of important German scientists and technicians into the Soviet zone is immediately stopped, we believe that the Soviet Union within a relatively short time may equal United States developments in the fields of atomic research and guided missiles and may be ahead of U.S. development in other fields of great military importance, including infra red, television and jet propulsion. In the field of atomic research for example, we estimate that German assistance already has cut substantially, probably by several years, the time needed for the USSR to achieve practical results.
It is excusable mistake for American official in 1940s, who did not knew about the extent of our spy ring in Manhattan project. :)

I see you have taken the 'I will ignore this' position. No, I have much more information that confirms what I've already posted. Russian spies? In the United States? Of course there were. In the British government also. I have a declassified report that mentions American wartime missile developments but insists on focusing on German developments. And significant portions of what was found remains classified. Manfred von Ardenne was part of the German atomic project. He was captured and his laboratory was dismantled and shipped to Russia. As if the Germans were incapable of doing or even knowing anything.

You have not made your case.
 

Dilandu

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And significant portions of what was found remains classified. Manfred von Ardenne was part of the German atomic project. He was captured and his laboratory was dismantled and shipped to Russia. As if the Germans were incapable of doing or even knowing anything.
Sigh. German nuclear tech was pre-US-1942 level. In 1945, they didn't even get reactor run. Our Soviet first reactor and bomb were both modelled after American examples, not anything German at all. Seriously, your knowledge is very flawed here. The fact that American analytics, trying to explain how the "technological backward" USSR managed to get bomb so fast resorted to "it was Germans" did not make it reality.
 

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I think Dilandu has a point about the nuclear stuff. The German nuclear work was later found to have been in disarray. Unsurprising, as most of its scientists pegged it before the war began and the main one left behind (whose name I forget) claimed to have deliberately steered it up blind alleys to prevent a Nazi bomb. Then of course there was their loss of Norwegian heavy water supplies.
Few countries ever realise the extent of foreign espionage in their back yards and there is no evidence that wartime USA was an exception. Otherwise, it is hard to explain how the Russians pulled the rabbit out of the hat quite so soon afterwards.

I'd love to know more about the German aircraft technology captured by Russia. Quite a lot of prototypes are known to have been completed and tested, but it is often not known who accompanied them, how knowledgeable or competent were the Russian technicians who finished the job, or whether the Russian assessment of their capabilities was any fairer than the Allied assessment of the Hortens. My suspicion is that, with some notable exceptions, East and West alike typically undervalued and underestimated the engineering they had in front of them.
 

Orionblamblam

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I think Dilandu has a point about the nuclear stuff. The German nuclear work was later found to have been in disarray. Unsurprising, as most of its scientists pegged it before the war began and the main one left behind (whose name I forget) claimed to have deliberately steered it up blind alleys to prevent a Nazi bomb.
Heisenberg. IIRC, the general concensus these days isn't that Heisenberg didn't sabotage progress, but that he was simply wrong. That was one of the German failings... their program was, compared to Manhatten, *small* and largely steered by one guy who had one idea. The US effort was vast and led by committee. Which, in a rare instance like "Casablanca," actually worked out for the best. When you're trying to do something utterly new that requires physics and engineering you don't have a handle on, trying out a *lot* of ideas is the best way to go.
 

Dilandu

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I'd love to know more about the German aircraft technology captured by Russia. Quite a lot of prototypes are known to have been completed and tested, but it is often not known who accompanied them, how knowledgeable or competent were the Russian technicians who finished the job, or whether the Russian assessment of their capabilities was any fairer than the Allied assessment of the Hortens. My suspicion is that, with some notable exceptions, East and West alike typically undervalued and underestimated the engineering they had in front of them.
We actually captured a lot of German prototypes. Many of them were tested, some incomplete even finished and tested. We have examples or Ar-234, Me-262 and Me-163, experimental DFS-364, details from several Ju-287 (later combined into one experimental plane, EF-131), ect.

The general conclusion was, however, that while German jet planes and prototypes have interesting element, none of them is actually useful as military aircraft. The production of Me-262 in Soviet Union was considered (it would be rather easy, considering that the factories in Czechoslovakia were in perfect condition, and in fact Czech produced their own variant of Me-262 - Avia S-92 - as early as in 1946), but eventually turned down, because Me-262 was considered overcomplicated, unreliable, and extremely hard to fly. Some experimental planes - like EF-131/EF-140 jet bombers - were developed from German experiments, but neither was considered successful. German jet engines (Jumo-004 and BMW-003) were used on our first jet fighters - Yak-15 and Mig-9 - but neither of them was a continuation of German development. Essentially, German engines were considered inherently unreliable & underpowered, and as soon as British "Nene" became available, German line was dropped completely.
 

edwest

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And significant portions of what was found remains classified. Manfred von Ardenne was part of the German atomic project. He was captured and his laboratory was dismantled and shipped to Russia. As if the Germans were incapable of doing or even knowing anything.
Sigh. German nuclear tech was pre-US-1942 level. In 1945, they didn't even get reactor run. Our Soviet first reactor and bomb were both modelled after American examples, not anything German at all. Seriously, your knowledge is very flawed here. The fact that American analytics, trying to explain how the "technological backward" USSR managed to get bomb so fast resorted to "it was Germans" did not make it reality.

You have chosen a point of view over reality. I understand your strong feelings against Nazis but it has no explanatory value. Believe what you will. I have numerous statements from 1945 that indicate the Germans, both in guided missiles and in atomic research, were worth capturing. The British did it, the Americans under Paperclip and the Russians, who immediately became enemies of the West.

I have seen Russian test footage of a captured Me 262 from the period. This aircraft was easy to fly and took off like any modern jet. Stalin did not like the Soviet version and who was going to argue with someone who murdered various people, including scientists? An intelligence report issued by the Americans indicated concern over the number of advanced German aircraft in Russian possession. The DFS 346 was completed and test flown by the Russians as well.
 

Dilandu

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You have chosen a point of view over reality.
No. I just took reality as it is, in all its complexity. I made a rather big research about guided weaponry of WW2 - more than 50+ articles about American, British, French, Italian and Japanese examples - and on the basic of large amount of data, I came to this conclusion. Which actually fit into reality much better than the usual blabbering about "German generals were so cool, German engineers were so smart, it was only Adolph which messed all up", yadda, yadda. Sorry, but if Nazi demonstrated stupidity, incompetence and total disorganization in every single aspect of their rule, it is strange to assume that engineering somehow avoided that.

that indicate the Germans, both in guided missiles and in atomic research, were worth capturing.
Correction: British, American and Soviet THOUGHT that it was worth capturing. They were rather dismayed when they evaluated what they actually have, and found that it wasn't exactly much to worry about.

I have seen Russian test footage of a captured Me 262 from the period. This aircraft was easy to fly and took off like any modern jet.
I have read our evaluation of Me-262, when the idea of copying it was suggested. The majority of pilots described her as unreliable, extremely hard to control, and generally unsuited for combat.

Stalin did not like the Soviet version
There were no Soviet version of Me-262. There were Czech version.

The DFS 346 was completed and test flown by the Russians as well.
Yes, and so? It was an experimental plane for high-speed aerodynamic research. It would be strange NOT to use it.
 

Dilandu

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I'd be intrigued to learn more about that. Is there a thread here somewhere on it?
Me too, because Alsos mission reports and memories of its members indicate exactly the opposite - that German atomic program was an awful mess, never existed as a single whole, but instead as several concurring micro-programs, because each German ministry or military branch wanted to have "atomic project" as a matter of pride.

P.S. About reactors. Here is the first Soviet nuclear reactor, F-1, run in 1946
:

1598639372373.png
1598639391052.png

And here is famous "Chicago Pile-1", the first US nuclear reactor run in 1942:


1598639463887.png
1598639529699.png
(scale model)

And this pathetic contraption is what Germans tried (and failed) to make reactor out of in 1945:

1598639594336.png

As you could see, while Soviet and American reactors are very similar in design, they have literally nothing common with German "marinated mushrooms"...
 

edwest

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I think Dilandu has a point about the nuclear stuff. The German nuclear work was later found to have been in disarray. Unsurprising, as most of its scientists pegged it before the war began and the main one left behind (whose name I forget) claimed to have deliberately steered it up blind alleys to prevent a Nazi bomb. Then of course there was their loss of Norwegian heavy water supplies.
Few countries ever realise the extent of foreign espionage in their back yards and there is no evidence that wartime USA was an exception. Otherwise, it is hard to explain how the Russians pulled the rabbit out of the hat quite so soon afterwards.

I'd love to know more about the German aircraft technology captured by Russia. Quite a lot of prototypes are known to have been completed and tested, but it is often not known who accompanied them, how knowledgeable or competent were the Russian technicians who finished the job, or whether the Russian assessment of their capabilities was any fairer than the Allied assessment of the Hortens. My suspicion is that, with some notable exceptions, East and West alike typically undervalued and underestimated the engineering they had in front of them.

The reactor vessel found at Haigerloch and photographed by the Americans was all the "proof" anyone needed that something was done wrong by the Germans. And while Heisenberg was an important part of the German atomic project (actually more that one), he was not the only person involved. Among other prominent researchers wrere Kurt Diebner, Paul Harteck and Dr. Czulius. The expenditures were in line with a dispersed project which included the Army and the Reichspost. Reactor test locations included Leipzig, Gottow and Berlin. When the heavy water installation in Norway was damaged, IG Farben began producing heavy water in Germany.
 

edwest

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I'd be intrigued to learn more about that. Is there a thread here somewhere on it?
Me too, because Alsos mission reports and memories of its members indicate exactly the opposite - that German atomic program was an awful mess, never existed as a single whole, but instead as several concurring micro-programs, because each German ministry or military branch wanted to have "atomic project" as a matter of pride.

P.S. About reactors. Here is the first Soviet nuclear reactor, F-1, run in 1946
:

View attachment 640131
View attachment 640132

And here is famous "Chicago Pile-1", the first US nuclear reactor run in 1942:


View attachment 640133
View attachment 640134
(scale model)

And this pathetic contraption is what Germans tried (and failed) to make reactor out of in 1945:

View attachment 640135

As you could see, while Soviet and American reactors are very similar in design, they have literally nothing common with German "marinated mushrooms"...

Believe your own version and ignore all else.
 

Dilandu

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The reactor vessel found at Haigerloch and photographed by the Americans was all the "proof" anyone needed.
Yeah, you forgot just one small detail - it was unworkable. :) Otherwise it was just fine; it was just too small to work, and was based on a wrong theory, and used wrong materials... but it was so good-looking...

1598640810441.png

...Actually not, it looks pretty idiotically.

And while Heisenberg was an important part of the German atomic project (actually more that one),
Yeah, he was absolutely sure that the only way to make atomic bomb, is to make miniature reactor & get it into meltdown. He was absolutely devastated, when he first head about Hiroshima, and realized, that absolutely everything he done in 1940s was useless.
 

Dilandu

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Believe your own version and ignore all else.
Sorry, I prefer to believe in facts, not your mismatched and simply wrong data. The photos are more persuasive than indistinct phrases about "someone maybe said something about German nuclear program maybe being of some value". And I take it, that you never read anything about Alsos mission?
 

edwest

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Believe your own version and ignore all else.
Sorry, I prefer to believe in facts, not your mismatched and simply wrong data. The photos are more persuasive than indistinct phrases about "someone maybe said something about German nuclear program maybe being of some value". And I take it, that you never read anything about Alsos mission?

I have a reproduction of an original Alsos report. It is from May 1945. It lists successful pile experiments. And it mentions a research report that was found by Alsos that gives the status of the project as of January 1945. Feel free to ignore it. I won't.

From the back cover of The Alsos Mission by Colonel Boris T. Pash:

From SHAEF Headquarters
Classification: Eyes Only

The special Alsos mission headed by Boris Pash has hit the jackpot. For Eyes Only of General Marshall and Secretary of War, from Eisenhower. Information and material exceed greatest expectations. Full details follow through usual channels. We now unquestionably have everything.

Urgent

Original destroyed
 

Dilandu

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I have a reproduction of an original Alsos report. It is from May 1945. It lists successful pile experiments. And it mentions a research report that was found by Alsos that gives the status of the project as of January 1945. Feel free to ignore it. I won't.
And where is this magical paper? :) It seems that you just did not understood, that "successful pile experiments" did not means "reactor working". It means that SOME experiments Germans done were successful - which is well-known, they demonstrated neutron propagation on ill-fated L-IV in 1942 (which blow itself up - but due to purely chemical reasons of sloppy German workmanship). But they do not have any kind of actual reactor run. Please stop invent myths and fairy tales.

From the back cover of The Alsos Mission by Colonel Boris T. Pash:
You doesn't read the book, it seems. Just looked at cover. Because this phrase meant, that they find what they wanted to find: German nuclear laboratory. And it was...


It was so obvious that the whole German uranium set up
was on a ludicrously small scale. Here [at Hechingen] was the cen-
tral group of laboratories, and all it amounted to was a little under-
ground cave, a wing of a small textile factory, a few rooms in an old
brewery. To be sure, the laboratories were well-equipped, but com-
pared to what we were doing in the United States it was still small-
time stuff. Sometimes we wondered if our government had not spent
more money on our intelligence mission than the Germans had spent
on their whole project.
14
Operation Big was concluded and Pash reported back to Washing-
ton that ìAlsos has hit the jackpot.î That same phrase was sent up
the chain of command and eventually was repeated in a letter from
General Eisenhower
 

Dilandu

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P.S. And seriously, Edwest, your insistence that only your interpretation of facts could be allowed to exist, and everyone else is "ignorant" is rather annoying. Especially when it is you, who consistently ignored any argument otherwise, even photos (!). Could you be so kind to maintain a more civil style of discussion?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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The important thing from the American perspective was to locate the German Atomic bomb effort, see how far it had progressed, and prevent anything useful from it being obtained by the Soviets. They hit the jackpot. That doesn't mean the prize was valuable :)

However, while the German atomic research was disappointing, in other areas, German technology and engineers did find application. For example in the USSR the NK-12 turboprop was derived from German predecessors. British centrifugal turbojets were preferred over German axials immediately because they were more reliable and easier to produce, ideal for the USSR to get a quick start into the jet age. The centrifugal turbojet was an evolutionary dead end however, and was followed by a slew of axial jets which owe some debt to the German engineers who were taken to the USSR. While the various experimental aircraft completed with German assistance proved less helpful, they were a valuable training ground for Soviet engineers who gained knowledge and experience. When the Germans were sent home, they still left a legacy.
 

Richard N

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It was to the great benefit of the US that Wernher von Braun and his cadre avoided the Russians and made the effort to be captured by the allies which helped the US missile and rocket programs and eventually ran the space program that won the race to the moon.
 

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The centrifugal turbojet was an evolutionary dead end
That's a bit unfair. It remained, and remains, a niche technology. Companies such as Turbomeca contiinued to introduce smaller designs for many years. Mixed-flow types having both centrifugal and axial stages also emerged. See for example the relatively modern Garrett TFE731 series.

One intriguing thing about this thread is that all the passionate nationalistic memes (including Cole's) are turning out to he half-truths. The reality is a lot more complex: X was good at this, Y at that, Z at the other. Nobody got everything right, nobody got everything wrong.
 
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Dilandu

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One intriguing thing about this thread is that all the passionate nationalistic memes (including Cole's) are turning out to he half-truths. The reality is a lot more complex: X was good at this, Y at that, Z at the other. Nobody got everything right, nobody got everything wrong.
A perfect summary)
 

Wurger

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P.S. And seriously, Edwest, your insistence that only your interpretation of facts could be allowed to exist, and everyone else is "ignorant" is rather annoying. Especially when it is you, who consistently ignored any argument otherwise, even photos (!). Could you be so kind to maintain a more civil style of discussion?
I`m afraid our forum is now a grazing field for uneducated, ignorant haters, churning their bias without moderation amongst our threads. This fellow I`ve quoted is the most menacing member I`ve seen to this forum, with his substandard interventions and clearly belonging to a hate group. He is getting too much credit and levelling down our quality.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I'm in complete agreement on this issue. I have disagreements with EdWest on various themes, but there is an increasing level of aggression and lack of courtesy from a number of forum members. I have some ideas on how to combat this.

In the specific topic of Nazi atomic bombs, however, I think Dilandu is actually more correct than EdWest on the actual, factual history.
 
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steelpillow

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Talking of courtesy, I confess I owe Dilandu an apology for parodying their views in such an over-the-top way. Right or wrong, I should have known better.

This has, for me at least, been a fascinating discussion and I do hope we can all "keep calm and carry on".
 

Hood

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There is no doubt that German engineering and their R&D work was top notch with lavish facilities and plenty of funding. To be honest if some impressive stuff hadn't been coming off the the drawing boards there would be more serious questions of why not?
Surprisingly for a modern industrial society it seemed to be production that the Germans had problems with, whether that was due to the labyrinthne Nazi system or a misplaced sense of optimism I'm not sure. By the end they were scrabbling for mass production and churning out some pretty basic and sloppy designs. When you look at the surviving genuine late-war German aircraft in museums you wince at the shoddy quality and of course relying on slave labour was never going to give good results. Being an He 162 production test pilot would have been a nerve-wracking job.

There is no doubt that German engineers contributed a great deal post-war, they didn't all become household names like von Braun or even as famous as Kuchemann, but they did have a lasting impact working alongside their peers.
In the USSR things were different, they were simply vessels of knowledge to be tapped. In a system built on political paranoia they were the uncleanest of the unclean. Yakovlev for example used the 'Germanic' angle against his competitors when they wheeled out things like the Su-9 and I-211. Fearing the knock of the NKVD Sukhoi and Alexeyev quickly ditched any Me-262 look-alikes. The project to clone the Ar 234 was soon stopped dead. The plans to complete Type XXII submarines foundered too, partly from lack of resources, it just proved easier to adapt the technology. Baade's group were allowed to tinker with the last of the Junkers lineage but there was never any sense of urgency or material support and their handful of prototypes were abandoned as Tupolev, Sukhoi and Myasischev got up to speed and overtook their efforts. The EF126 went no further beyond 1948. The team under Rossing developing the DFS 346 was a massive flop, 3 were built and 5 years were spent on the project and they didn't even get beyond Mach 1 by August 1951 and only 3 powered flights were made. Again there was no real drive from the Soviet authorities to exploit the programme at all, it could have been the Soviet X-1 or M.52 and they didn't seem interested at all. As Overscan says in was areas like turboprops and axial-flow jets were the biggest gains were made (for France too, ATAR was massively vital to the French industry), even the TV-2 developed closely to German blueprints was problematic. Just taking German tech was not straightforward. The best dividends came from taking the knowledge and applying it to fresh-sheet designs.
Of course by the mid-50s the Soviets had to let most of the Germans go and they soon legged it. They gave the Soviets a leg up but it wasn't a massive boost. The OKBs during 1946-55 churned out a massive range of designs and prototypes, they were working overtime and like Nazis they had the funding and facilities to really start making inroads on progress. To say it was all German help hides the real impact of Soviet resources.

The same in the West, sure the F-86 and B-47 are raised as examples but there is no way that American engineers would have overlooked the swept wing for long,. There is no doubt that German data filled in the gaps, saved thousands of hours of replicated work, it was work that would have been done by NACA and TsAGI at some point, it just saved them the trouble. Same for missile technology, direct V-1 and V-2 copies didn't last very long, nobody copied the Hs 293 or really attempted to complete the stillborn designs. The information was useful but the designs that came from that work looked little like their original German ancestors (except maybe France's ATGW efforts).
 

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You highlight a very important point.

I'm not sure everyone realises that aircraft design companies rely on basic research done by NACA/NASA, RAE, universities, Air Force research centres and the like. The postwar dividend wasn't so much studying the actual German aircraft like Me 262, it was acquiring the basic aerodynamic research that had been completed for those aircraft and beyond. The German state, desperate for a war-winning breakthrough, and researchers, desperate to stay employed far from the front lines, had basically done most of the basic research needed for the next generation of aircraft.

The aircraft designers on the US, UK and Russia were able to skip forward 5 years rather than wait for NASA or the RAE to duplicate this work. Additionally, some of the German experimental facilities were very well equipped with supersonic wind tunnels etc. Stealing these saved time designing similar facilities.

German engineering was (and remains) world class, but there isn't any great mystery why they pulled ahead in some technology areas - it was because they funded and pursued these areas when the Allies had other priorities.

The reality is, they had only gone a few years ahead, and In building the first and second post-war jet generations, valuable new lessons were learned, in the course of which most of the knowledge acquired from Nazi Germany was superseded. Some truly gifted German engineers carried on working in the US, UK and elsewhere, like Von Braun, and helped solve the problems of the next generation.
 

Dilandu

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The aircraft designers on the US, UK and Russia were able to skip forward 5 years rather than wait for NASA or the RAE to duplicate this work. Additionally, some of the German experimental facilities were very well equipped with supersonic wind tunnels etc. Stealing these saved time designing similar facilities.
With that, I agree - German aerodynamic research were extremely useful. But ironically, German aircraft engineers didn't use much of available data during the war.

but there isn't any great mystery why they pulled ahead in some technology areas - it was because they funded and pursued these areas when the Allies had other priorities.
And in some - like radars, automatic homing, radio control - they lagged behind seriously.
 

steelpillow

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The aircraft designers on the US, UK and Russia were able to skip forward 5 years rather than wait for NASA or the RAE to duplicate this work. Additionally, some of the German experimental facilities were very well equipped with supersonic wind tunnels etc. Stealing these saved time designing similar facilities.
With that, I agree - German aerodynamic research were extremely useful. But ironically, German aircraft engineers didn't use much of available data during the war.
Much of that was due to the intense time pressures. There is a whole long stage of turning fundamental research into experimental aircraft, before production types can be developed. The manufacturers also undertook a huge number of speculative design studies (as witnessed by this forum) and fed back models for wind tunnel testing, helping to push that process forwards. Much of that was in direct support of RLM requirements, which were pretty sensible as long as political meddling could be held at bay. The Germans pulled through far more fundamental research than did the British.
It also has to be remembered that in a desperate war, your wonder weapon does not need to be perfect, it just needs to kill more enemies than operators. Types such as the Me 262 may have been barely practicable, but it needs to be compared to the Spit and the Mustang, not postwar jets. Its massively superior speed made it king of the air, end of.
 

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How much of the German jet research and production was just motivated by the fact that
it was a propulsion system that would run well on the Kerosene the Germans could get
from the synthetic fuel plants they had vs. the higher octane AvGas that was harder
for them to produce?
 

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Aeronautics was very much an international endeavor throughout most of the period between the two world wars, with major contributions coming from researchers in Germany, the UK, the US, and Italy. One example of this international nature is the 5th Volta Conference, in 1935, where researchers from many countries investigating high-speed flight came together.

Incidentally, the first flying-wing aircraft was built and flown no later than 1912. Since this was slightly before the Horten brothers were born, they could have had very little to do with it.


----------

I know some people love flying wings; I don't, as they don't scale down terribly well. Except for those few organizations with a basic job of blowing stuff up, they simply don't have the internal volume for the carriage of passengers or cargo until they get very large.

----------

ps: do note that many German aircraft used NACA airfoils. Just putting that datum out there to add to what I stated in my first paragraph.
 

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How much of the German jet research and production was just motivated by the fact that
it was a propulsion system that would run well on the Kerosene the Germans could get
from the synthetic fuel plants they had vs. the higher octane AvGas that was harder
for them to produce?
Very little really. Remember von Ohain's first jet flew before the war even began and they pushed forward steadily from then on. Their strategic approach to fuel supplies was to invade Russia and capture their oilfields. By the time that failed, the jet was already a top priority.
 

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How much of the German jet research and production was just motivated by the fact that
it was a propulsion system that would run well on the Kerosene the Germans could get
from the synthetic fuel plants they had vs. the higher octane AvGas that was harder
for them to produce?
Very little really. Remember von Ohain's first jet flew before the war even began and they pushed forward steadily from then on. Their strategic approach to fuel supplies was to invade Russia and capture their oilfields. By the time that failed, the jet was already a top priority.
Rather belied by the vast investments the Germans made pre-war on synthetic fuel plants.

I'd also point out that despite all of the investments the Germans made in jets they utterly failed to
solve the bomber interception problem; they made jets with poor endurance and poorer rates of
climb than contemporary Allied piston aircraft. That's not what you what.
 

steelpillow

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Aeronautics was very much an international endeavor throughout most of the period between the two world wars, with major contributions coming from researchers in Germany, the UK, the US, and Italy. One example of this international nature is the 5th Volta Conference, in 1935, where researchers from many countries investigating high-speed flight came together.

Incidentally, the first flying-wing aircraft was built and flown no later than 1912.
You are probably thinking of the Dunne types, but these were not flying wings; they had large external frameworks extending fore and aft, to accommodate the pilot, fuel and engine. The flying wing is predicated on a thick wing and, barring the odd Junkers monoplane, these did not appear until much later. What Dunne did achieve was the aerodynamic sophistication that a flying wing needs.
 

steelpillow

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Very little really. Remember von Ohain's first jet flew before the war even began and they pushed forward steadily from then on. Their strategic approach to fuel supplies was to invade Russia and capture their oilfields. By the time that failed, the jet was already a top priority.
Rather belied by the vast investments the Germans made pre-war on synthetic fuel plants.

I'd also point out that despite all of the investments the Germans made in jets they utterly failed to
solve the bomber interception problem; they made jets with poor endurance and poorer rates of
climb than contemporary Allied piston aircraft. That's not what you what.
Oh dear, here we go again. The German strategic invasion of Russia is of major historical significance and airing a few pet theories is not going to change the history books. It was necessary precisely because the synthetic supplies could not keep up with the demands of war. The preference of some piston-engine manufacturers for Diesel oil over high-octane petroleum was more directly linked to their synthetics than was their jet programme; there would have been no need to go turbojet on that basis.
Meanwhile it is almost as well known that the German decision to go axial, combined with serious shortages of strategic materials for the special alloys preferred, were the causes of the slow progress and performance issues. Later versions of say the Jumo jet engines were designed to use lower-grade materials and that inevitably led to a performance penalty. Indeed that is what I what.
And I cannot help wondering why you asked in the first place, if you are so vehemently sure of the answer?
 
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marauder2048

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Very little really. Remember von Ohain's first jet flew before the war even began and they pushed forward steadily from then on. Their strategic approach to fuel supplies was to invade Russia and capture their oilfields. By the time that failed, the jet was already a top priority.
Rather belied by the vast investments the Germans made pre-war on synthetic fuel plants.

I'd also point out that despite all of the investments the Germans made in jets they utterly failed to
solve the bomber interception problem; they made jets with poor endurance and poorer rates of
climb than contemporary Allied piston aircraft. That's not what you what.
Oh dear, here we go again. The German strategic invasion of Russia is of major historical significance and airing a few pet theories is not going to change the history books. It was necessary precisely because the synthetic supplies could not keep up with the demands of war.
Despite the large imports of oil from the Soviet Union during the period 1939 - 1941?
 

steelpillow

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steelpillow said:
Oh dear, here we go again. The German strategic invasion of Russia is of major historical significance and airing a few pet theories is not going to change the history books. It was necessary precisely because the synthetic supplies could not keep up with the demands of war.
Despite the large imports of oil from the Soviet Union during the period 1939 - 1941?
Yes of course. Hitler knew perfectly well that their alliance was a hollow one and Stalin would attack him very soon if he did not get his move in first. Timing was all.
One might also point out that to suggest jets were pursued to avoid petroleum because of its scarcity, while also suggesting that Russian supplies of the stuff were sufficient and assured, is rather an inconsistent position.
 
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marauder2048

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steelpillow said:
Oh dear, here we go again. The German strategic invasion of Russia is of major historical significance and airing a few pet theories is not going to change the history books. It was necessary precisely because the synthetic supplies could not keep up with the demands of war.
Despite the large imports of oil from the Soviet Union during the period 1939 - 1941?
You appear to know nothing of the strategic issues and decisions which shaped the war. Hitler knew perfectly well that their alliance was a hollow one and Stalin would attack him very soon if he did not get his move in first.
One might also point out that to suggest jets were pursued to avoid scarce petroleum, while also suggesting that Russian supplies of the stuff were assured, is rather an inconsistent position.
You really do need to read up on some basic histories of that conflict, and then think your confrontational ideas through a little, if you aspire to know what you are talking about.
Far be it for me to suggest that your circular reasoning is unconvincing: Hitler invaded the Soviet Union to get
the oil he would only need if he needed to support an invasion of the Soviet Union.

As far as I can tell, between the synthetic fuel plants and the exports the Germans were able to secure from
Romania and else where there was no fuel shortages for the German military during the period 1939 - 1941.

It's clear that Germany was devoted to getting as much petroleum product from every conceivable source at her disposal.
Pre-war that involved massive investments in synthetic fuel plants; during periods of the war it meant leaning on her allies
and developing engines that would run on alternative fuels like wood gas for vehicles.

After the invasion of the Soviet Union failed to produce decisive results and after the US entered the war
it was clear that Germany's AvGas production methods and that of her Allies were hopelessly inadequate.
 

iverson

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<snip>
The German state, desperate for a war-winning breakthrough, and researchers, desperate to stay employed far from the front lines, had basically done most of the basic research needed for the next generation of aircraft.

The aircraft designers on the US, UK and Russia were able to skip forward 5 years rather than wait for NASA or the RAE to duplicate this work.
<snip>
This may be a bit overstated. Nazi militarism and racial ideology also cost Germany a lot of basic research. This is usually recognized when it comes to nuclear physics and emigres like Einstein, Fermi, and Bohr. But aerodynamics also had its brilliant refugees. Theodor von Kármán, one of the ground-breaking theorists of supersonic flight, emigrated to the US in the '30s. He was later one of the masterminds behind Operation Paperclip.
 

edwest

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I see a lack of further research here. Paperclip was organized by experts to get the best Germans and Austrians. There is this misconception that some of those who were brought over did not work out so to speak. After interrogation by the appropriate experts and the review of any recovered documents related to certain persons in custody, they were sent on. Since these people were considered valuable. they were under the control of their employers. If they could not produce, they could be sent back, at any time.
 
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