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Sea Wolf and Sea Dart: Unbuilt Derivatives and Cancelled Applications

robunos

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Thanks for that, I'll add it to the list I'm compiling . . .

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,18814.msg181693.html#msg181693



cheers,
Robin.
 

Hobbes

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TinWing said:
You can download an 18MB(!) .zip file from this link that contains 9 scanned .pdf brochures and articles from the early 1980s on the Sea Wolf and Sea Dart SAMs:
Does anyone have this file? The original links are dead.
 

starviking

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Thanks for uploading those Hobbes!

For the bigger files, I seem to recall the forum has a section for them. Can any mods help?
 

Jemiba

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starviking said:
For the bigger files, I seem to recall the forum has a section for them. Can any mods help?
Maybe I've missed something, but I don't know of such a method here.
For really big files I would recommend putting them on a filehoster and post
the link here.
 

overscan

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I can upload files of any size to the server if they are sent to me.
 

Hood

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I've come across mention of a missile development related programme in the minutes of the Defence Equipment Policy Committee whilst browsing for something else at Kew and wondered if anyone had any more details.
The programme was; Common Missile Technology for Future Missiles. The date is very early 1983 (the reference I saw was Feb 1983, so it may have begun sometime during 1982).
The aim seems to have been examination of common modules for application in; "Super Sea Wolf", Rapier FSD and ASRAAM. Note the quotation marks around Super Sea Wolf were on the original file. I wonder what modules were to be common and just what exactly the Sea Wolf (early work to GWS27?) and Rapier projects were.
 

Kadija_Man

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Out of a matter of interest, what is the "Wolverine" system that has been mentioned?
 

CJGibson

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Wolverine - BAe Dynamics Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile system based on VL Seawolf using a guidance system called Missile Reference Command to Line Of Sight (MRCLOS) and fitted with a flechette warhead.

From Late 80s/early 90s (but may be post-Granby) I think. I've seen it mentioned in a copy of Janes.

Chris
 

Kadija_Man

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CJGibson said:
Wolverine - BAe Dynamics Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile system based on VL Seawolf using a guidance system called Missile Reference Command to Line Of Sight (MRCLOS) and fitted with a flechette warhead.

From Late 80s/early 90s (but may be post-Granby) I think. I've seen it mentioned in a copy of Janes.

Chris
Thanks. Never heard of it before. I will look a little harder.
 

RHVERNON

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Sometime in the early 1970s it seems to have been decided that the "low-level" threat mandated the reintroduction/sustainment of the Bloodhound force in the UK with deployments that look like they were intended to defend USAF and RAF force concentrations in East Anglia and to a lesser extent in Lincolnshire. By the late 1980s this threat perception was such that there was an active replacement effort (MSAM); which based on the proposed solutions looks a lot like GAST.1210 from twenty years earlier (1967-68).

There was an ulterior motive though; NATO would fund hardened aircraft shelter construction under it's Physical Protection Programme if certain requirements were met. The Bloodhounds brought back from Germany helped to meet those requirements.

Wolverine is a curious beast, I have only ever seen it mentioned in old magazines from the late 1980s. I originally assumed it had something to do with MSAM but I am starting to wonder if it was as much private venture as anything else as it was apparently submitted to a US Army Strategic Defense Command Invite-Test-Show programme. Either way Wolverine seems to come about twenty years after Landpax.
No ulterior motive at all. The reintroduction of Bloodhound Mk 2 missile defence of the southern UK in 1975 was totally driven by the
Physical Protection Programme and the NATO money pot it opened for airfield hardening. The deployment of Rapier was the preferred option at an operational level, but the RAF couldn't afford to buy the extra equipment or man the extra squadrons required to defend every base, So they proposed an area defence using equipment returned from Cyprus and stuff out of storage with installation of the equipment at West Ranyham, North Coates and Bawdsey as the first phase, with a forth site at Watton using former AD-10 Thunderbird Mk 2 Radars (which needed extensive modifications to use with Bloodhound 2). The equipment coming back from Germany was scheduled to go into Woodhall Spa, RAE Bedford and Stadishall. The prime reasons that they ended up at Barkston Heath, Wattisham and Wyton were due to terrain coverage issues, site closures and the fact that NATO told the USAF to provide their own SAM cover for the USAF strike and recce bases in East Anglia. In fact the deployment of 25 Squadron to RAF Germany was done for the very same reason, though it was always an interim solution until Rapier with Blindfire was available. Bloodhound Mk 2's original UK deployment was only for 2 UK bases, a Training and Trials unit at North Coates (25 Squadron) and a Composite squadron at West Raynham (41 Squadron) whose primary role was provision of deployable missile sections east of Suez and reinforcement personnel to NEAF and FEAF. At the height of the UK fixed site Bloodhound force in 1964-1969 where was never more than 5 fixed missile sections with a maximum of 32 launchers at 12 hours readiness during the whole period. There was a study done to see if Bloodhound could be replaced with something off the shelf or by a new system around 1979. This was due to the fact that Bloodhound Mk 2 was pretty much expected to be out of service by 1992 due to the obsolescence of the equipment. The UK were involved in NATO studies into the replacement of Hercules and Hawk in Europe. MoD PE was pushing for a EuroSAM option based on Sea Dart with a French radar and German input, however the French military were not interested and the Germans were against the concept on technical grounds. However the study did look at other options. Patriot was rejected on cost and lack of 360 coverage (plus not enough range to replace Bloodhound). 2 Land based versions of Sea Dart were considered. A BAe proposal called Watchdog using Sea Dart I and the lightweight launcher and Land Dart Mk 2 using the Sea Dart Mk 2 missile which was under development. The basic problem with Land Dart in both its forms is that without a completely new fire control system and radar it could not replace Bloodhound Mk 2 in all of its operational capabilities. The Bloodhound Mk 2 system was designed to be transportable. Bar the fact that it couldn't be carried or towed across a field by a three ton truck, it was as transportable as Thunderbird Mk 2was, as the Swedes and the mobile RAF sections proved in quite a few exercises. While in Germany, three of 25 Squadron's missile sections had their launchers fitted with outriggers and on blast mats and they were dual hatted for both NATO and UK national deployment requirements. Same for 48 Sqn with its Tigercat and 63 Squadron when it deployed to RAF Germany with Rapier (The UK national deployment for the later squadron was actually exercised in the case of the Falklands war in 1982). The RAF were not impressed with the ECCM capabilities of Sea Dart Mk 1 and though, the ECCM capabilities of the planned Mk 2 were acceptable, there was no way that the fire control system as designed for naval use could be used on a transportable land based system that could be moved by C-130. Type 909 radar didn't have independent search capability, the Bloodhound's Type 86 and Type 87 radar's did. Sea Dart's fire control system didn't work that well over land....Bloodhound's did.
 

CJGibson

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So that's what Watchdog was!

Wolverine gets a mention in an old Jane's Weapons System, I think.

Chris
 
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