Dumb question from me, but why is range shorter for smaller targets? Clutter?
The missile is semi-active homing on the radar echo from the target, illuminated by ship's radar. So the enemy ship must be visible above horizon. The smaller (and lower) the enemy ship is, the less distance from which it would be visible.
 
I used to watch ships along the English Channel from out the window of my old home. Odd to see containers moving along but the ship invisible.

My clutter comment was based on thinking at some distance only masts would be seen. Presumably they get lost in the clutter from waves, and that distance would be closer on smaller ships.

Without knowing the 909 radar height it's hard to know the distance to the radar horizon though.
Jane's will tell you the masthead height. Which IIRC is close enough to the radar horizon for government work.

Also, all the right angles on most masts make excellent radar reflectors. Subs and sailboats use ~8"-12" diameter "balls" made of 3 sheets of aluminum meeting at right angles as radar reflectors.
 
Jane's will tell you the masthead height. Which IIRC is close enough to the radar horizon for government work.

Also, all the right angles on most masts make excellent radar reflectors. Subs and sailboats use ~8"-12" diameter "balls" made of 3 sheets of aluminum meeting at right angles as radar reflectors.
Exactly. As long as at least some part of the ship is above horizon, there is a reflection for SARH seeker to work with. Of course, the common problem in targeting the mast tops is that missile might aim too high & miss the hull - but sea-skimmer Sea Dart, moving at constant altitude, would not have such problem.
 
And this, theoretically, should also fix the point of impact in case of radiation homing device, as you suggested.
Exactly. Assuming, of course, that the target isn't so low, that the missile overshoot it. Albeit a terminal glide-dive at pre-set angle could be programmed in that case, at least for SARH version (triggered by the strength of echo reaching a specific level as a crude range measure).
 

A trial shoot against HMS Rapid.

On the 16th October 1975 HMS Bristol carried out a surface-to-surface test firing of a Sea Dart missile at the Aberporth test facility. The target was the destroyer HMS Rapid, moored 17187 yards away at 280°, the sea state was between 1 and 2 and the wind speed was 10Kts.
The launcher was on a bearing of 105°Red (ie to port) and the missile was launched at 16:18 at at elevation of 28·5°. The missile was an operational round, serial JZ35, with a weight of 1208lbs at launch and approximately 600lbs at impact. As intended, the fuze and warhead were not armed.
The missile struck HMS Rapid at 2200 feet per second on the waterline between frames 38 and 39, just above No3 deck, and exploded just after impact. The missile may have skidded down the ship's side plating before catching on the first of three half-round rubbing bands and penetrating the hull.
A large hole was blown in the side of the ship, and had No1 boiler room bulkhead not remained intact and watertight the ship would have foundered. A target of this size would have ceased to be able to continue fighting.

Source: The National Archives file ADM 281/326.
Cue Peter Sellers’ Fu Manchu: “Haven’t I seen you somewhere before?”



Fair’s fair; you did link to my article. I can’t believe I wrote it over four years ago!

SRJ
 
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Of course, the common problem in targeting the mast tops is that missile might aim too high & miss the hull - but sea-skimmer Sea Dart, moving at constant altitude, would not have such problem.
Proximity-fused expanding rod warheads also help with this problem, if one is employing a surface-to-air missile as a surface-to-surface weapon. Makes a right mess of a small warship, as the Turkish destroyer MUAVENET could have told you.

Granted that's not what was proposed for Sea Dart, but it is how the USN employs Standard.
 
I thought SIGS always had a anti-missile-missile requirement?
 
This test was of the new (at the time) Mod 3 variant with the infrared proximity fuse and the cloud fragmentation warhead. The previous versions had a continuous rod warhead and radio proximity fuse was optimal against larger slower aircraft but didn’t have fragment density to hit small high speed targets.

Unfortunately there were no new production Mod 3 missiles, just upgrades to the surviving stock.

I still maintain a Sea Dart with a Meteor active terminal radar would have been a formidable system.
 
I still maintain a Sea Dart with a Meteor active terminal radar would have been a formidable system.

I am sorry if I missed this, but all search redirects me to the Meteor missile. Do you mean the same radar? Was there a consideration of fitting an active terminal radar to Sea Dart?
 
I am sorry if I missed this, but all search redirects me to the Meteor missile. Do you mean the same radar? Was there a consideration of fitting an active terminal radar to Sea Dart?
Yes, I’m suggesting replacing the Mod 3 inertial/terminal SARH with inertial active terminal radar homing. The Meteor homing head is just about the right size to fit without significantly changing the Sea Darts basic architecture.

No this was never an official project, just my speculation.
 
Yes, I’m suggesting replacing the Mod 3 inertial/terminal SARH with inertial active terminal radar homing. The Meteor homing head is just about the right size to fit without significantly changing the Sea Darts basic architecture.
Hm, it would require much more portruging nose cone, to give seeker greater scanning arc. On the other hand, in modern times such modernization would likely be much less problematic than anything like it in 1970s.
 
Without more details of the test it’s difficult to be certain. In 1987 most, if not all the shore based Sea Dart R&D infrastructure had gone. So it only leaves the Type 42’s. Most of 42’s with the older Type 965 were gone or going. So by deduction it was most likely a Type 1022….although it might, probably was, enhanced.
 
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Without more details of the test it’s difficult to be certain. In 1987 most, if not all the shore based Sea Dart R&D infrastructure had gone. So it only leaves the Type 42’s. Most of 42’s with the older Type 965 were gone o going. So by deduction it was most likely a Type 1022….although it might, probably was, enhanced.
The more I learn about the Sea Dart, the more I wonder whether, much like the practically immortal Standard, it could have lasted a lot longer than it did. Clearly the latent potential was there.
 
Given the closing speeds, would a nuclear warhead be required or were fuzing systems 'fast' enough?

Chris
 
The more I learn about the Sea Dart, the more I wonder whether, much like the practically immortal Standard, it could have lasted a lot longer than it did. Clearly the latent potential was there.
True, but coherent planning was never among the strongest points of post-war RN.

Given the closing speeds, would a nuclear warhead be required or were fuzing systems 'fast' enough?
For Sea Dart? Clearly a nuclear required. The continious-rod warhead was completely unsuitable for anti-ballistic defense, too slow-reacting and too narrow area of effect.
 
For Sea Dart? Clearly a nuclear required. The continious-rod warhead was completely unsuitable for anti-ballistic defense, too slow-reacting and too narrow area of effect.

I was going to comment that fitting a nuke warhead into 11kg (the usual value cited for Sea Dart) would be very difficult.

But then I came across the Little Wars discussion of Sea Dart, which gives a different value: 13kg (29.7 lb) explosive, total weight 26.3kg (58 lbs). That's in the same ballpark as the W54 in the AIM-26 Falcon, so it is possible that a nuclear Sea Dart could have been done without a massive redesign.

 
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But then I came across the Little Wars discussion of Sea Dart, which gives a different value: 13kg (29.7 lb) explosive, total weight 26.3kg (58 lbs). That's in the same ballpark as the W54 in the AIM-26 Falcon, so it is possible that a nuclear Sea Dart could have been done without a massive redesign.
Yep. Wouldn't be easy, but at least potentially doable. The power would need to be boosted a bit; the W72 configuration (0,6 kiloton) would likely be close to required for anti-ballistic defense.
 
There is a closed file held by TNA Kew on a nuclear Seadart. We can't access it, so the file may just show the topic was thought about. The Seadart conventional warhead envelope was 8.8 inch dia and 12 or 13.7 inches long, depending on the continuous rod or blast frag version. This is limited by the ram jet anular air intake, and this size limit wouldn't have accommodated any of the UK service nuclear packages. The US have smaller envelope warheads, and this may have been why the UK didn't proceed. The early Seadart magazines (HMS Bristol) had a missile check room, able to swop the top of the missile, but this was intended to handle an alternative semi armour piercing warhead for use against ships, which also wasn't proceeded with.
 
There is a closed file held by TNA Kew on a nuclear Seadart. We can't access it, so the file may just show the topic was thought about. The Seadart conventional warhead envelope was 8.8 inch dia and 12 or 13.7 inches long, depending on the continuous rod or blast frag version. This is limited by the ram jet anular air intake, and this size limit wouldn't have accommodated any of the UK service nuclear packages. The US have smaller envelope warheads, and this may have been why the UK didn't proceed. The early Seadart magazines (HMS Bristol) had a missile check room, able to swop the top of the missile, but this was intended to handle an alternative semi armour piercing warhead for use against ships, which also wasn't proceeded with.

Thanks, that's very informative. That 8.8-inch envelope diameter rules out a simple adaptation of a W54/Scarab style primary, which was about 10.8 inches in diameter and likely could not be shrunk much further. You'd probably be looking at a warhead derived from artillery shell design instead. And those don't seem to be light enough, though a portion of that may be due to shock hardening for artillery launch.
 
Thanks, that's very informative. That 8.8-inch envelope diameter rules out a simple adaptation of a W54/Scarab style primary, which was about 10.8 inches in diameter and likely could not be shrunk much further. You'd probably be looking at a warhead derived from artillery shell design instead. And those don't seem to be light enough, though a portion of that may be due to shock hardening for artillery launch.
Yep. The only thing that would likely fit would be a atrillery-class warhead, from nuclear shell - and those things were rather inefficient and costly to produce. Some adaptation of W48 nuclear shell might fit, but I'm not sure about fitting in the length limitation.
 
Thanks, that's very informative. That 8.8-inch envelope diameter rules out a simple adaptation of a W54/Scarab style primary, which was about 10.8 inches in diameter and likely could not be shrunk much further. You'd probably be looking at a warhead derived from artillery shell design instead. And those don't seem to be light enough, though a portion of that may be due to shock hardening for artillery launch.

IMHO, of course, but any kind of nuclear SAM that Royal Navy might field during Cold War would likely be a nuclear derivative of Seaslug:

* The Seaslug became operational exactly in time period, when nuclear-tipped SAM's were on the peak of popularity, and thus the idea "Royal Navy must also have one" would be absolutely plausible. By the time Sea Dart become operational in early 1970s, the nuclear-tipped SAM's weren't as popular anymore (both due to political concerns and the simple fact that radar & guidance technology improved enough for concentional SAM's to do the job);

* The Seaslug is a large missile with large warhead section. It could easily be adapted to fit at least several variations of nuclear warheads. The most likely version would probably be a lightened WE.117A design; it seems to be a right diameter to fit inside missile body (albeit tightly), and it was already used by RN as nuclear depth charge;

* The Seaslug is a beam-rider missile. It's essentially immune to jamming, chaffs, decoys; as long as Type 901 radar beam is on target, Seaslug would hit it. For a tactical nuclear weapon, the immunity to enemy countermeasures was always highly desirable (there are always the chance that decoyed missile might fly too close to friendly unit...). Note that nuclear version of both RIM-2 Terrier and RIM-8 Talos were pure beam-riders, without homing guidance;

So basically, if RN really wanted a nuclear SAM, and managed to persuade government to fund it in 1960s - it would likely be a nuclear-tipped Seaslug Mk.3, with WE.117A warhead.

P.S. One interesting note is, that Seaslug actually didn't need nuclear warhead much. The main reason for the nuclear-tipped Terrier and Talos missiles was, that 1950s radars could not discriminate between several targets in close formation; it was possible that they would start to track the whole formation as one big target, and missiles would just fly between enemy planes. The nuclear warheads were supposed to solve this problem, by either destroying all formation at once, or forcing enemy planes to disperce (so they could be picked up by conventional missiles).

Well, the Seaslug guidance radar did not have such limitation. The Type 901 guidance beam was so narrow, that the radar required a specific search pattern to just lock on the target (the data from usual ship tracking & heigh-finder radars was too inaccurate for high-precision beam!) Its azimuth resolution was about 0.33 degrees, and range resolution was less than 70 meters. So Seaslug could just discriminate between target in close formation by itself; no need to go nuclear.
 
There is a closed file held by TNA Kew on a nuclear Seadart. We can't access it, so the file may just show the topic was thought about. The Seadart conventional warhead envelope was 8.8 inch dia and 12 or 13.7 inches long, depending on the continuous rod or blast frag version. This is limited by the ram jet anular air intake, and this size limit wouldn't have accommodated any of the UK service nuclear packages. The US have smaller envelope warheads, and this may have been why the UK didn't proceed. The early Seadart magazines (HMS Bristol) had a missile check room, able to swop the top of the missile, but this was intended to handle an alternative semi armour piercing warhead for use against ships, which also wasn't proceeded with.
There are nukes that will fit in that volume. Something akin to a US W33 8" nuclear artillery shell, for example.
 
For Dilandu. The Seaslug nuclear option was more developed than the later Seadart. For Seaslug Mk 2, several changes were made in preparation for a special round with a W Warhead, with up to 4 carried per vessel, in the sidelanes, so they didn't obstruct the main loadline. Preparatory changes for NW included beacon tracking, for range coincidence fusing with an arm command, plus changes to the guidance parameters, affecting stiffness in flight. Again, the TNA file is closed, and given recent 'gardening' of other similar files, I don't expect release after any review.
 
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There are nukes that will fit in that volume. Something akin to a US W33 8" nuclear artillery shell, for example.

W33 is significantly longer than that. It was a gun-type device that used up most of the 34-inch length of an 8-inch shell. Even the later 155mm linear implosion devices were probably too long for this application.
 
There are nukes that will fit in that volume. Something akin to a US W33 8" nuclear artillery shell, for example.

The W48's diameter was 6.1" (Although without the shell-casing it would be smaller than that), a W48 variant developed as a missile warhead would know doubt be significantly lighter due to not needing to be toughened to take the setback G-load resulting from being fired out of a cannon.​
 
Something akin to a US W33 8" nuclear artillery shell, for example.
W33 is oralloy-based; it's far too costly to seriously consider. Also, it is too long to fit in available space.

For Dilandu. The Seaslug nuclear option was more developed than the later Seadart. For Seaslug Mk 2, several changes were made in preparation for a special round with a W Warhead, with up to 4 carried per vessel, in the sidelanes, so they didn't obstruct the main loadline. Preparatory changes for NW included beacon tracking, for range coincidence fusing with an arm command, plus changes to the guidance parameters, affecting stiffness in flight. Again, the TNA file is closed, and given recent 'gardening' of other similar files, I don't expect release after any review.
Thank you for the data, I suspect something like that, considering how many efforts were put into choosing the exact warhead type for Seaslug!
 
The W48's diameter was 6.1" (Although without the shell-casing it would be smaller than that), a W48 variant developed as a missile warhead would know doubt be significantly lighter due to not needing to be toughened to take the setback G-load resulting from being fired out of a cannon.
The problem with such small devices is that they were generally highly fuel-inefficient. Britain could hardly afford to waste plutonium on small inefficient nukes.
 
W33 is oralloy-based; it's far too costly to seriously consider. Also, it is too long to fit in available space.
combined response
The problem with such small devices is that they were generally highly fuel-inefficient. Britain could hardly afford to waste plutonium on small inefficient nukes.
Can't use oralloy, can't use plutonium.

So what fissionables can we use?
 
Somewhere on this site someone did share then projected nuclear warhead numbers.
I have a copy.

Tony was expected to arm Seaslug, Thunderbird, Bloodhound and Blue Water. As well as Red Beard replacement
Some 548 warheads in total. 48 for Seaslug.
 
The problem with such small devices is that they were generally highly fuel-inefficient.

That could've been mitigated using DT-boosting.

Britain could hardly afford to waste plutonium on small inefficient nukes.

If a nuclear armed version of the Sea Dart had been produced I doubt it would've been in large numbers, something I suspect on the order of two or three dozen warheads at most.
 
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