(usage of Google translator upon reader discretion):

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/zelenskyj-besoker-sverige-traffar-statsministern-i-linkoping
It sounds like a local production project... Saab/Antonov?
Yes, I think that technology transfer is something the Ukrainians are looking for. And as you say, the Ukrainians have Antonov, good engineers, and are no strangers to aviation technology.

Then regarding local production: I would think that it's a bit of a Catch-22: In order to build up an indigenous aircraft industry again, they need air superiority to protect the industry. So I think first step would be Ukrainian engineers and technician in Linköping helping to build the early deliveries, and then maybe production in Ukraine after that.
 
Yes. That sounds pretty reasonable according to what we know today.

Anyhow, 3 years for the first airframe looks like they plan on new gigs, new factory, workers and tools, something that wouldn´t be needed otherwise (if they had diverted some early airframe form SwAF or Brazil to Ukraine).
 
The 2 big questions are how can they afford this and how would this impact relations with the U.S. ? Wouldn't it have been more politically wiser to negotiate the purchase of new F-16 airframes to keep the White House happy ? Because let's be honest, Ukraine needs U.S. support more than European support.
 
The 2 big questions are how can they afford this and how would this impact relations with the U.S. ? Wouldn't it have been more politically wiser to negotiate the purchase of new F-16 airframes to keep the White House happy ? Because let's be honest, Ukraine needs U.S. support more than European support.

Absolutely: Late block F-16s would actually probably provide more bangs for the buck since the US could "outprice" SAAB if they wanted to, and it may well come to that. And the Gripen deal may simply turn into a bargaining chip. Time will tell. OTOH, if the Ukrainians are serious about developing their own aviation industry, well then SAAB is probably the better choice. In addition, don't forget that the Gripen is made for easy maintenance and able to operate from rough road bases with conscripts making them ready for next mission. Maybe the Ukrainians place value in this as well?
 
Anyhow, 3 years for the first airframe looks like they plan on new gigs, new factory, workers and tools, something that wouldn´t be needed otherwise (if they had diverted some early airframe form SwAF or Brazil to Ukraine).
3 years is more like a full cycle for new airframe, if order is placed now. I.e. long lead items need to be ordered right now.
New factory won't deliver anything this soon. And frankly, just ask Baykar how it goes for them - it's just blasting air.

It's only realistic for transfer of displaced C/D airframes, and only on a condition that SwAF won't grow for the time being.
The 2 big questions are how can they afford this and how would this impact relations with the U.S. ? Wouldn't it have been more politically wiser to negotiate the purchase of new F-16 airframes to keep the White House happy ? Because let's be honest, Ukraine needs U.S. support more than European support.
It's doubtful. The only money that can support such a deal are Russian assets in Europe, for which Europe takes massive financial risks (risks is a kind word; it's "certainties").
Taking these money to US will be quite a step too far. Up to debate frankly how much even Sweden itself is acceptable as a smaller nation without weight, but at least it's on the right side of the Atlantic.
Absolutely: Late block F-16s would actually probably provide more bangs for the buck since the US could "outprice" SAAB if they wanted to, and it may well come to that.
F-16V was and remains a weaker proposal for Ukraine even on merits alone. Even with APKWS addition. It can work the way it works right now, but expanding fleet over certain size and role just won't work out.

And while it's certainly possible to outprice Gripen E in fly away price (this price comes with a reason, though, and it isn't exactly a useless one for Ukraine), long term it just won't click. Especially in Ukraine, where operations aren't peacetime.
 
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3 years is more like a full cycle for new airframe, if order is placed now. I.e. long lead items need to be ordered right now.
New factory won't deliver anything this soon. And frankly, just as Baykar how it goes for them - it's just blasting air.

It's only realistic for transfer of displaced C/D airframes, and only on a condition that SwAF won't grow for the time being.

Well the Swedish Minister of Defense Pål Jonson disagrees with you: In an interview made minutes ago he talks about expanding the Gripen E production capabilities and says that the first Ukrainian Gripen Es can be delivered in 3 years.

And about blasting hot air: I think we will hear more of that soon, with the Russians as usual first claiming this is a huge unacceptable escalation, and then in the next breath say that this is of no importance at all and will not affect the "Special Military Operation" in any way. ;)
 
Well the Swedish Minister of Defense Pål Jonson disagrees with you: In an interview made minutes ago he talks about expanding the Gripen E production capabilities and says that the first Ukrainian Gripen Es can be delivered in 3 years.
I agree, it can. Order now.
And about blasting hot air: I think we will hear more of that soon, with the Russians as usual first claiming this is a huge unacceptable escalation, and then in the next breath say that this is of no importance at all and will not affect the "Special Military Operation" in any way. ;)
Again, check out how Baykar factory is going.
Even capital region is consistently breached every few days. Production of something as complex as modern fighter will either happen outside, or it won't happen at all.
 
F-16V was and remains a weaker proposal for Ukraine even on merits alone. Even with APKWS addition. It can work the way it works right now, but expanding fleet over certain size and role just won't work out.

And while it's certainly possible to outprice Gripen E in fly away price (this price comes with a reason, though, and it isn't exactly a useless one for Ukraine), long term it just won't click. Especially in Ukraine, where operations aren't peacetime.
Well I agree that the Gripen would be the better choice for the Ukrainians since as I said before, being able to operate from road bases and designed from the beginning for servicing and turn around by conscripts, this together with protection based on mobility and not hardened shelters is not a bad mix. Maybe this is also why Zelensky went to Linköping? Maybe he wants an UkAF inspired by the SwAF? ;)
 
Doesn't it bother you that Grippen lost to all the medium-class fighters in the Indian tender? How will he fight the heavy fighters, Su-35S and Su-57?
War isn't exactly a MMA match, one on one. Should be telling that "best and heaviest" ukrainian fighters(flankers) also happen to be least useful of them all.

And SAAB, frankly speaking, lost everything until recently for the same reason Mig-35 did: it didn't really exist.
Both companies tried to complete long before they had even prototypes, much less a finished product.
 
Some of Gripen's qualities certainly would be a good fit for Ukraine; too bad a Gripen "U" production line based on the C/D apparently isn't in the cards. I certainly wondered (even aloud) whether enough legacy equipment exists/existed for that to happen/have happened. A complicated proposition in any case.

I've been trying to get a reaction/raise interest on Ukrainian Gripens from people better in the know and connected than I am since at least 2022 (not that I'm claiming any personal credit here) that I can remember (I constantly encounter posts here there and everywhere I've already forgotten having written). Good thing this is going forward, the geostrategic imperatives are quite clear all around w/a realistic distribution of responsibilities across the smörgåsbord. The sooner the better.
 
You also don't need to truly gain air superiority, just take out a couple of SU-34s and force the Russians to change their tactics/push them back/make them less effective. Its not always abut winning, but about forcing your opponent into less advantageous situations.
 
Well Meteors fired from radar-silent Gripen Es, and then being data linked from an SAAB ASC 890 Erieye sure smells like air superiority to me. ;)
If Meteors are part of the deal, it will indeed make a big change.
And tbh, so glad to see some Europeans (and not even part of EU) buying European made planes for once.
 
(usage of Google translator upon reader discretion):

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/zelenskyj-besoker-sverige-traffar-statsministern-i-linkoping
The size of the potential order sounds like a local production project... Saab/Antonov?
More:

Zelenskyy heads north for possible Swedish arms deal​

https://www.defensenews.com/global/...twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tw_dfn

Huge Gripen Fighter Order Letter Of Intent Signed By Ukraine​

https://www.twz.com/air/huge-gripen-fighter-order-letter-of-intent-signed-by-ukraine
 
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Saab CEO lift veil on possible Local production to takeover Sweden line:

Vd:n menar att företaget har kapacitet att accelerera produktionsmässigt. Om beslutet att Ukraina ska köpa Jas Gripen av Sverige klubbas kan produktionen också behöva förläggas i andra länder.

– Vi skulle behöva jobba med partnerskap, med andra företag i andra länder. Vi har en hubb i Brasilien i dag som kan tillverka flygplan. Vi skulle jobba med Ukrainsk industri för att kanske kunna göra något motsvarande.

Om det sluts ett avtal med Ukraina kan det första planet säljas inom tre år, enlig Saabs vd.
-----------------/**//+-------------------------------

The CEO believes that the company has the capacity to accelerate production. If the decision for Ukraine to buy Jas Gripen from Sweden is scrapped, production may also need to be relocated to other countries.

– We would need to work with partnerships, with other companies in other countries. We have a hub in Brazil today that can manufacture aircraft. We would work with Ukrainian industry to perhaps be able to do something similar.

If an agreement is reached with Ukraine, the first plane could be sold within three years, according to Saab's CEO.

(usage of an online translator at user's discretion)

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/o...ll-ukraina-kan-bli-den-storsta-affar-nagonsin
 
"Om beslutet att Ukraina ska köpa Jas Gripen av Sverige klubbas kan produktionen också behöva förläggas i andra länder."

On-line translators are today quite good but sometimes they get it wrong, and "klubbas" has nothing to do with "scrapped" in this context and in this case it means if "decision is approved" or "motion carried", and the second part of that sentence is not quite correct either, since it implies that production is moved while it should be interpreted as: If Ukraine buys Gripen then production of those may need to be done in other countries.

Ending with some curiosa: I used to sit in the same corridor as SAAB's current CEO Micael Johansson back in the 1990's when he was a middle manager at Ericsson Microwave Systems. Always knew him as a sensible and hard working fellow, so I'm not surprised he made it to the top. Kudos to him. :)
 
I suggest you should read the SVT piece as linked to before: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/o...ll-ukraina-kan-bli-den-storsta-affar-nagonsin

SVT looks like a reliable source.

For those who are not proficient in Swedish, in the short 1 min SVT video (Sweden’s state owned television) linked here, SAAB’s CEO says that they have been preparing for this (Gripens for Ukraine) for some time now and that SAAB has just been waiting for a political decision which has now been taken. Further, he says it’s now just a matter of just “pushing the button” and then “we will be delivering in 3 years”.
 
What are the odds that Ukraine will get Griffen C/Ds as an interim aircraft to tide them over and familiarise their personnel with the fighter-jet while they wait for the E/Fs to arrive?

Yes, if Ukraine wants to build up an indigenous aerospace industry

Ukraine does have an indigenous aerospace industry.
 
What are the odds that Ukraine will get Griffen C/Ds as an interim aircraft to tide them over and familiarise their personnel with the fighter-jet while they wait for the E/Fs to arrive?


Ukraine does have an indigenous aerospace industry.
Maybe that (deliveries of Gripen C/D's) will be part of the deal if it comes to a contract about the E? Who knows? But it was obvious the way SAAB's CEO phrased it in the interview that discussion have been going on for quite a while before Kristersson's and Zelensky's meeting and the press conference in Linköping. And yes, I do know the Ukrainians have an aerospace industry, so my wording was a bit off, and what I really meant was to build up an indigenous capacity to build fighter type aircraft which I think SAAB would be a good partner for them to do.
 
What are the odds that Ukraine will get Griffen C/Ds as an interim aircraft to tide them over and familiarise their personnel with the fighter-jet while they wait for the E/Fs to arrive?

"Enligt uppgifter till TV4 Nyheterna kan Sverige i nuläget ställa drygt 10 stycken Gripen till förfogande."

From:
https://www.tv4.se/artikel/4WSmsgRQ...ja-mycket-stort-antal-jas-gripen-till-ukraina
I.e. Sweden could ("according to TV4's information") allocate ten plus Gripens at the moment. Assuming these wouldn't be hot off the production line, they'd by definition have to be C/Ds. The sooner the better but aside from political decisions, PR and posturing some aspects of the project will never be public. Let's just say my current impression is that this thing is already well off the starting blocks.
 
IIRC Sweden does have a number of them in storage.

Could be that C/D is what is being considered, but sending Gripen Es makes more sense since the UkrAF could then get to know the aircraft and then immediately integrate them in once the Ukrainian production line is up and running.
 
I suggested them because they should be available fairly quickly.

But are they available yet in large numbers?
Yes, sending the Gripen C or D may well be what they send if the deal comes through. OTOH since we are talking about potentially 100 to 150 aircraft, this is not only a big deal for SAAB, but also on the political level here in Sweden, and if the Ukrainians want Es, then the SwAF may well have to take the backseat and wait in line for some of their deliveries.
 
Just a collection of headlines from the last 24 h of reporting.

https://www.flightglobal.com/defenc...rt-ukrainian-gripen-e-purchase/165030.article
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/62846
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...gripen-fighter-jets-bought-with-russian-money
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/o...ll-ukraina-kan-bli-den-storsta-affar-nagonsin
https://www.di.se/nyheter/ukraina-hyllar-gripen-planen-oron-snabba-beslut-ar-inte-att-vanta/
https://www.sverigesradio.se/artikel/darfor-kan-gripenaffaren-med-ukraina-stoppas-av-eu-och-usa
Embraer and Saab are pretty tight these days and Aero (Vochody) has also explored a Gripen-adjacent project recently; don't know what excess capacity PZL Mielec has but Poland certainly is highly motivated also. KAI perhaps a long shot but with a proven track record of scaling production expeditiously and with strong connections w/Poland. What other potential strategic partners I'm missing?

https://www.saab.com/markets/brazil/operations/gripen-final-assembly-line
https://www.aero.cz/en/aero-and-saa...ent-of-l-39ng-and-hungarian-gripen-platforms/
 
Regarding C/D: Sweden has 10 white-tail Gripens available for quick export. (Was 14 - but 4 went to Hungary). Every other individ would have to come from existing stock
 
It is also clear now that the SwAF want to transition to the 5th Gen as early as possible.
Probably only remotely possible in nuclear sharing context?

But otherwise, Sweden is already going for a large(120) fleet of aircraft for country of this size(10 mln), when it isn't even a frontline NATO state.

Gripens as is arguably add more to the emerging F-35 centric force than even more Lightnings could.

Scandinavia otherwise had a real issue of emerging disbalance (F-35 centric force). Gripens(and swedish AEWs) balance/round out Finland and Norway F-35 fleets well.
 
.Gripens as is arguably add more to the emerging F-35 centric force than even more Lightnings could.

Scandinavia otherwise had a real issue of emerging disbalance (F-35 centric force). Gripens(and swedish AEWs) balance/round out Finland and Norway F-35 fleets well.
Not sure I follow your logic. F-35 is more capable than Gripen E in every aspect.
 
Please remember, this thread is about the Saab Gripen E/F (Gripen NG).
That means, open for posts about that specific aircraft, in the spirit of this forum mainly technical points, but NOT something, that again and again leads into discussions about the Ukraine war, NOT for comparisons like in kiddies quartet games, and NOT for disparaging and offensive 1-vs-1 debates, or statements as calling others "armchair experts".
Understandably interest in this type is high, but a handful of members have produced about a dozen reports by . Cleaning up is difficult, as often enough it debases principally useful answers. Have swept through nevertheless, and perhaps it gets a better start now.
The points, that should be kept in mind are in the forum rules:

"... discuss unbuilt ... aerospace technology "
"..Posts purely on operational use and combat employment are largely off-topic"
"Political, religious and nationalistic topics are strongly discouraged. "
and
"Treat others as you would have them treat you"

So, reopened, but please keep discipline, otherwise it will have to be closed quite quickly again .
 
As those are the two that offer a considerable advantage over the Rafale. And UCAVs armed with a myriad of sensors could fulfill that gap.
Sorry, but Dassault already has an active UCAV program of strategic importance for France's deterrence.
And it’s actually funded, with around €1 billion already allocated over a ongoing 4 year period (2024-28)
Comparatively, how much actual funding and R&D effort is being invested in Saab’s program ?

Dassault is just terrible at marketing, unlike Saab. #AIPowered
 
Sorry, but Dassault already has an active UCAV program of strategic importance for France's deterrence.
And it’s actually funded, with around €1 billion already allocated over a ongoing 4 year period (2024-28)
Comparatively, how much actual funding and R&D effort is being invested in Saab’s program ?

Dassault is just terrible at marketing, unlike Saab. #AIPowered
I dont know but with Ukraine getting funding from different partners and sources such as Russia's frozen assets, I dont see an issue in increasing funding for either or both. Surely both programs can benefit from sharing certain sensors and weapons.
 

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