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Robert Hillberg's Winchester "Liberator" shotgun

cluttonfred

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Any gun buff or fan of WWII espionage fact or fiction knows about the Liberator pistol, an ugly little single-shot, smoothbore .45 caliber pocket pistol intended to arm resistance fighters (insurgents on our side) so that they can kill an enemy soldier and take his gun.

In the 1960s, following the same logic, designer Robert Hillberg came up with a rugged, simple insurgency (or counter-insurgency) weapon in the form of a top-break four-barrelled shotgun not unlike a scaled-up version of the old Sharp's four-barrelled pepperbox. It never found the intended military market, and was eventually developed into a police riot weapon by Colt, also without much success. Still, it's a great example of turning back the clock to return to a simpler concept.



Hillberg's patent and drawings at Google Patents

"Hillberg Insurgency Weapons" at Guntech.com

Looking back, there have been many other well-known efforts to provide cheap, easy-to-use weapons to arm a lot of people quickly. Most of them have been SMGs - Sten, PPsh-41, etc. Does anyone have any lesser know, and perhaps more recent, examples of "weapons for the masses" to share?
 

Orionblamblam

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Mole said:
Does anyone have any lesser know, and perhaps more recent, examples of "weapons for the masses" to share?

Cell phone gun, produced in some large quantities in Eastern Europe just a few years ago.



Some other awesomeness:
 

Orionblamblam

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Manufacturing firearms, including some relatively advanced fully automatic weapons (including box-fed full auto shotguns), is a thriving industry in some of the poorer regions of the world, like the back woods of the Phillipines:
http://ahboon.net/2007/05/12/gansta-gun-factory-in-philippines/



A bunch of "home made" Chechen firearms, form the "utter crap" to the "hey, that could be interesting:"
http://englishrussia.com/?p=965

A manual on how to build your very own .50 caliber sniper rifle:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4484076/firearms-Holmes-Bill-The-50Caliber-Rifle-Construction-Manual

Of course, the real value comes in building your own rocket launcher. Saves on the bother of having to find the BATFE on your own... they'll come find *you.*

 

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Rocket launchers are very easily built. Building a warhead though, that is both safe and reliable in its operation is an entirely different matter.
 

Orionblamblam

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rickshaw said:
Rocket launchers are very easily built. Building a warhead though, that is both safe and reliable in its operation is an entirely different matter.

An intermediate step is to build a *rocket.* Watch the videos of the homemade rocket launcher... the safest place in the world to be when that kid touches off his launcher is wherever he's aiming it.

One of these days I've got to build me a decent spud gun.
 

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That isn't necessarily a problem with the design of the launcher. It is perhaps with building of the rocket and a lack of training and an excess of fear on the part of the aimer. :eek:
 

Just call me Ray

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Orionblamblam said:
Manufacturing firearms, including some relatively advanced fully automatic weapons (including box-fed full auto shotguns), is a thriving industry in some of the poorer regions of the world, like the back woods of the Phillipines:
A bunch of "home made" Chechen firearms, form the "utter crap" to the "hey, that could be interesting:"

In all fairness, a gun is a very simple thing. Firearms have been in production since the 13th century at the latest. There have been reports back during the Soviet invasion of Mujadeen fighters using locally-made Mosin-Nagat rifles of surprisingly good quality and fit and finish. So I'm not surprised that poorer regions of the world have set up their own firearms industries, as they're one of the few truly modern weapons they can produce.

Though a few of the Chechen arms seem to follow a distinct pattern that I find interesting.
 

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On the topic of 'backwoords gunsmiths' from the Philippines, there was an article in the Jan 89 issue of the now defunct 'Firepower' magazine on a series of innovative rimfire SMGs by a Filipino gunsmith who learned his trade in Danao.

There's also a thriving trade along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border with scores of 'backwoods gunsmiths' plying their craft there. I remember an old National Geographic documentary on the topic sometime aired sometime during the 90s. Compared to the Danao gunsmiths (don't see any machine tools in the pics from the link), they seem to have access to machine tools, ableit old English equipment from the colonial era but a bandsaw is a bandsaw and a lathe is a lathe. Their steel comes from the ship-breaking yards of Karachi or Bangladesh and they're able to produce fine copies of the AK-47 or RPKs.
 

cluttonfred

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I guess I should have clarified that I am interested in "design for cheapness" and "design for simplicity" like the Hillberg shotgun, the Liberator pistol or the Sten gun, not just cheap and dirty copies of other, wise standard firearms.

Here's another one, the TRW low maintenance rifle, also intended as a easier to use weapon for insurgents that didn't require the meticulous care and feeding of the M16 back then (or the M4 carbine today).



TRW LMR on world.guns.ru

Anyone know of anything else more along those lines?
 

Abraham Gubler

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Orionblamblam said:
Then along those lines there was the COP 357:

Best known from when Leon blasted Holden into the next room. Also designed by Hillberg, using similar designs.

The "tell me about your mother" gun...
 

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Then along those lines there was the COP 357:

Best known from when Leon blasted Holden into the next room. Also designed by Hillberg, using similar designs.

Could you fire the chambers individually or only simultaneously as there's only one trigger?

Cheers, Woody
 

Orionblamblam

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Woody said:
Could you fire the chambers individually or only simultaneously as there's only one trigger?

One trigger pull per shot. After each shot, a cam would cycle to the next chamber.

For Leon's gun, the propmasters modified it to fire two cylinders at once. Of course this was only with blanks. Doing it with a real gun shootign real bullets would not only risk the gun exploding, but also risk having the US FedGuv coming down on you like a ton of bricks for creating a "destructive device." In the US, two bullets with one trigger pull would make it legally a machine gun.
 

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Wait a second. So if you fire both barrels of a double barrel sporting/hunting shotgun, that is considered a DD/Machine Gun by the ATF? That is pretty ******* stupid! Heck firing ONE barrel of a shotgun releases multiple projectiles, but that is not a DD/Machine Gun.
 

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I think it has more to do with the fact that the weapon itself was created outside the usual "legal" channels as a movie prop. It most likely would've been destroyed after its usefulness expired in order to conform to these laws.

I heard this was also the fate of the working replicas used in such films as "Saving Private Ryan." Many of these, of course, were just metal or plastic props with all the functionality of a paperweight.
 

Orionblamblam

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John21 said:
Wait a second. So if you fire both barrels of a double barrel sporting/hunting shotgun, that is considered a DD/Machine Gun by the ATF?

If you could fire both barrels simultaneously with a *single* trigger pull, then yes. But double barrelled shotguns tend to have two triggers:



And there's: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=280902
It's a double-barrelled *pump* shotgun. Looks like ya have to reach through two trigger guards to reach both triggers.

Doesn't seem to be a law against simultaneously pulling *two* triggers.

Heck firing ONE barrel of a shotgun releases multiple projectiles...

Yes, but it remains a single cartridge.
 

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Orionblamblam said:
In the US, two bullets with one trigger pull would make it legally a machine gun.

And yet a 12 gauge firng 00 buckshot isn't considered one. That's the gov. for ya.
 

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Orionblamblam said:
Of course, the real value comes in building your own rocket launcher. Saves on the bother of having to find the BATFE on your own... they'll come find *you.*


Speaking of BATFE, do flamethrowers count as "fire arms"?
 

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TomS

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Pyrrhic victory said:
Speaking of BATFE, do flamethrowers count as "fire arms"?

Nope, flamethrowers are not regulated under the NFA (not even as destructive devices). They may run afoul of state laws, however.
 

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sferrin said:
Orionblamblam said:
In the US, two bullets with one trigger pull would make it legally a machine gun.

And yet a 12 gauge firng 00 buckshot isn't considered one. That's the gov. for ya.

But watch out... if your semiauto malfunctions, off to jail you go ::) And even if they tell you in writing that something isn't a machine gun, there's nothing to stop them from turning around and changing their minds later...
 

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