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RN Nuclear NIGS ship

zen

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RF....reduced firing? Essentially the Bloodhound and Thunderbird type launcher that is slow to load....hence the high number of launchers.
 

zen

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Can someone repeat the date for this table?
 

Tzoli

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Just open it the designs proposed are in the first line. These designs we are discussing currently are from 1955 June and November. The RF from June, the Bristols from November
 

zen

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Hmmmm this is surely before the emergence of phased array radar technology as such.
So both Type 985 and this Trackwell are not necessarily the later options of PAR or FSR (Frequency Scanning Radar).....
 

zen

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So I've definitely got something wrong with the quote insert.

Link for example of Frequency Scanning Radar and quite relevant https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/11.ancient/karte107.en.html

JCF Fuller wrote
With regard to the radar, I have managed to do a bit more digging. The first proposal for a Frequency Scanning Radar is made by ASRE in 1957 and was for a 30ft x 30ft rotating array with a peak transmitter power of 2.5MW. The NIGS arrays were fixed and there would have been four per ship. Based on an ASWE report from 1961, they would have actually been 20ft wide and 15ft high (I was wrong again) with 88 phase changers, 88 frequency scanners and a feed line with 88 outputs. They would have been able to handle a peak power input of 2.5MW. R&D work seems to slow down with abandonment of NIGS but does not completely stop, in 1963 a report is commissioned from someone at Leeds University to look at high power ferromagnetic phase shifters. Later, in 1968 a large (6ft x 6ft based on photos) stacked phase shifting planar array is built and used to test mechanical and electrically controlled ferrite phase shifters. My radar knowledge is weak but the concept seems to have moved on and is now described as Phase Scanning. A peak power upto 4MW is referenced for this design.
So now I've managed to mess up the quote ?

Frequency Scanning is that as you change frequency so the angle of emitted energy changes.

Phase Scanning is that by delaying the waveform each emitted wave overlaps such that the tangent of them is an angle you can control.
https://www.radartutorial.eu/06.antennas/Phased Array Antenna.en.html#fsa

It's possible that the early Type 985 in the GW59 (relook can't remember number) is this early rotating antenna. As such if it's been scaled down to fit it might drastically cut performance. Rotation would further reduce capability.
Equally this is so early it could actually be a maritime Type 84 set and the Type number reassigned to the later PAR system.......

This further raises the question "what is Trackwell?"
 
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Hood

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A very interesting discovery.

I have always suspected that Type 985 was separate from the the NSR proposed for NIGS and I think this proves it.

Whatever system GW59 was designed around in 1955 could be considered as the first step on the path to NIGS. It has several similar features;
Multiple single-arm launchers - the Admiralty/ Ministry of Aviation Working Party in 1959 felt that single-arm launchers the right solution and they even discussed having separate high-angle and low-angle launchers, presumably to save power requirements for rapid elevation etc. How this would work in practice I'm not sure without a highly complicated magazine arrangement.

Sea Slug - GW59 only has 28 missiles (3.5 per launcher!) but the missiles seem to be Sea Slug as no other name is provided only non-Sea Slug missiles seemed to be named.

Type 985 - is a search and tracking radar, presumably one radar, sounds very similar in concept to NSR but must have been more than a speculative project in June 1955 as it was assigned a Type number. Two things stand out, the equipment weight for the ship is only 740 tons, some 300 tons lighter than the other GW designs around it and it needs a Type 992 target indication radar. So whatever the Type 985 is, its not a totally standalone system and its not very big. Maybe the Type 985 really is just a digital 984 with guidance added in?

Tonnage - interestingly GW59 is 10,500 tons and yet NIGS was meant to fit on a 6,000 ton hull, this indicates either more miniaturisation of the radar and missile for NIGS or wishful thinking in 1959! But at 540ft long, GW59 is almost County sized.

The other GW ships are interesting too;
GW61 to GW 63 have the mysterious 8 launchers for 32 "R.F." missiles, 1x Trackwell radar. What is interesting is that both ships are far larger than GW59 at 15,000-16,000 tons and 610-640ft long (County was 520ft). No other radar is specified at all, not even a basic Type 974 for navigation. I find this somewhat odd as all the other designs have other radar sensors listed.
Whatever Trackwell is it must be powerful, note that Type 985 on GW985 may be a search/track radar but still needs a Type 992Q for targeting info. Trackwell seems to be able to operate without it. If this is a track/scan radar then it predates the AN/SPG-59 by at least 3 years so cutting edge indeed. At 1,090 tons equipment weight for all 3 GW designs, it seems Trackwell is a large and heavy piece of kit contributing to the weight.

GW70 to GW78 all have the Bristol 1 3/4. Nearly all have 6x T.I.A., 7 of the ships have a dedicated telemetry link, 6 of the ships have a Beacon and oddly GW 72 and GW73 only have the beacon and no T.I.A.! Regardless of the gun armament options, all of these are big and heavy ships of cruiser size.

My money is on the R.F. and Trackwell being a proto-NIGS system, it looks a capable and heavy system and close to the things the 1959 working party were talking about. Whatever 985 is, it doesn't seem quite in the same league. NIGS seems to have followed the Bristol 1 3/4 system and added illuminators too.

My questions are:
Why was Type 985 not used on any other GW ship or with the R.F. missile system and was it really just linked to Sea Slug?
What is the R.F. missile?
What is Trackwell?
What is the T.I.A tracker?
Why where the Navy looking at essentially 3 different systems at the same time (Sea Slug with 985, R.F with Trackwell, Bristol Blue Envoy with 984 & TIAs)

To answer Tzoli's question;
NIGS = New Naval Guided Weapons System
 
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Tzoli

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I think your answer lies in these workbooks:
Type 985 with RF:
1030/3,
Drawing no.: 6159

Trackwell with RF:
631/7, 622/2, 840/6,
Drawing no.: 6161,62,63

TIA, Beacon and Telemetry with Bristol Missile:
840/6, 631/7,
Drawing no.: 6170,71,72,73,74,75 ,6216,17,20


We should ask our friends who live close to try and check these out! Or in the mean time the entire GW series documents!
 
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zen

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So Elliots achieve the first electrically scanned radar in MRS.5.
Prior to that there is electrically scanned in reception Winkle for ECM.

It's possible Trackwell is NSR yes. But this suggests Type 985 might start as replacement of the mechanically scanned Type 984.
The tonnage for 984 was I think 250 tons but this doesn't include 992 or 901 or other guidance systems.

However where is the illuminators for the missiles? Trackwell must be doing that as well, hence my suspicion this is similar to Tychon's SPG59
 
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RLBH

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Why where the Navy looking at essentially 3 different systems at the same time (Sea Slug with 985, R.F with Trackwell, Bristol Blue Envoy with 984 & TIAs)
My guess there is that the Navy was examining its' options and trying to figure out exactly what it wanted from a cruiser and from its' guided missiles.

We only have the ship side of the debate - I assume that some of the iterations were because there was back-and-forth with the guided weapons people and the radar people about the size, weight and power requirements for their equipment, and what could be accomodated. Some of the studies may have shown that accomodating one requirement was only possible with unacceptable compromises in other areas, helping define the requirements for the combat system and the ship to carry it.
 
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zen

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Another point.
What we call Track while Scan is essentially what Type 984 and CDS do.

What SPG59 does is Search, Track and Illuminate and does it effectively simultaneously.

While what we've read here about NSR and NIGS is the Illumination function is separate from a combined search and track set.

TIA could stand for Targe Illumination Array
As Type 86 Firelight and Type 87 Scorpion sets are actually a combination of tracking illuminators and height finding sets. Coupled ECM assessment equipment.
 

Tzoli

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I've made a modification to my drawing of the NIGS Scheme 16 Nuclear DDG.
Here is the Scheme 17 the COSAG propulsion version:


not much change just made some decks more round and of course added the funnels.
 
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