Republic P-47, Pre-Projects, Prototypes & Projects

The list of missed opportunities based on the U.S.'s inability to create a working contra-rotating gear box is fairly substantial. From the XB-35 to the Douglas Skyshark, through the XP-75, etc., it just appears to have been a bridge too far. This has always mystified me. Perhaps someone with substantial knowledge of American engine development has the answer.

AlanG
 
Well - you are combining three different but related applications...in order of increasing difficulty)

single engine -> counter-rotating propellers (applicable as a replacement for single rotation prop) (B-35)

dual/coupled engines -> counter-rotating propellers (XP-75)

dual coupled engines -> (one engine disengagable at gearbox) -> counter-rotating propellers. (T40 applications - Skyshark, Tradewind)

High-power piston engine development was abandoned (except for the R3350 and R4460) at the end of WWII. It looks like the Air Force abandoned turboprop development (and the requirement for high-power gearboxes) by 1948-9 when the Air Force adopted jet engines for the B-52.

I think that there is a rule of thumb that an engine takes 50% longer to develop from scratch than its' target airplane - and the gearbox takes 50% longer than the engine. That's true even today - look at the problems and delays encountered in developing the gearbox and transmission for the Sikorsky CH-53K King Stallion helicopter.
 
Is it worth the weight?
contra prop weight.png fighter prop weigth.png propeller dural weight future scope of props fairhurst 45.png

propeller wood weight future scope of props fairhurst 45.png
Keep in mind that a contra-prop is adding side area ahead of the CG which leads to reduced yaw stability, ie an increase in vertical area or arm will be required.... which means a further increase in weight.

Consensus during the 40s seems to be that for sub-3000 hp contra-props aren't worth it.
 
Is going from a 4 blade to a 3+3 blade worth an extra ~100lbs on the 13-14000lb Jug? It may very well have been if the additional thrust was great enough but we may never know. Although yaw stability is a valid concern, overall yaw characteristics will be improved IMO. I know the bubble canopy P-47s ultimately led to the addition of a dorsal fillet to compensate for the lost yaw stability of the Razorback yet nobody is looking back on that decision
 
Hi Sienar,

Keep in mind that a contra-prop is adding side area ahead of the CG which leads to reduced yaw stability, ie an increase in vertical area or arm will be required.... which means a further increase in weight.

Thanks a lot for the interesting graphs!

I think yaw stability is actually an important point. Somewhat ironically, contraprops also help to improve yaw control as the effect of power and speed changes are much less pronounced due to the reduced overall rotational inertia of the main slipstream.

That adds qualitative benefits to the potential quantitative performance benefit of the contraprops: Low speed handling characteristics are much improved, making operations safer, and when we're talking about a fighter aircraft, it might also be easier for the pilot to keep the aircraft from yawing while firing at a target, which makes the aircraft more effective as a weapon.

How much properly coordinated flight improves gunnery is evident from the priorities of the late-WW2 Luftwaffe - they intended to fit a lead-computing gunsight on every fighter - and a yaw-damping system. (Not contraprops, but the goal was the same.) Here's more on the background: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/messerschmitt-me-p-1101.15737/page-2#post-611161

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
The list of missed opportunities based on the U.S.'s inability to create a working contra-rotating gear box is fairly substantial. From the XB-35 to the Douglas Skyshark, through the XP-75, etc., it just appears to have been a bridge too far. This has always mystified me. Perhaps someone with substantial knowledge of American engine development has the answer.

AlanG
According to Gordon Elliot White's book on the Wasp Major the contra-prop gearbox and drive system for the XB-35 worked fine on the test stand, the problems started when it was mounted on the aircraft. White posits that the issues were caused by where they were mounted and that they were a pusher configuration. Being mounted with the thrustline above the surface of the wing, which put the propellers in clean air at the top of their arc but at the bottom subject to the assymetrical airflow off of the wing that resulted from the changing thickness of the airfoil and the sweep of the trailing edge, which meant that the speed of the air traveling over the surface changed as you went outboard from the centerline of the aicraft. As a result, as the propellers rotated, the loading was constantly changing. It's possible that staggered positioning of the propeller assemblies, the inboard being forward of the outboard, may have played a role. He also points out that changing to the single rotation four-bladed propellers didn't eliminate the vibration, it just reduced the performane of the aircraft.

White relates that the B-36 pusher installation also had a vibration problem. It wasn't as extreme as the B-35 because the wing airfoil thickness didn't change as rapidly and that the minimally swept trailing edge, in combination with the propellers being mounted more or less symmetricaly in the vertical plane with the thrustline running through the wing, meant that the airflow changes weren't as extreme. The B-36 still had problems with vibration and gearbox issues but they weren't considered critical. It's worth noting that some proposed increased power variants of the B-36 switched to tractor propeller installations.

Speaking personally, I think White's argument has merit.
 
Consensus during the 40s seems to be that for sub-3000 hp contra-props aren't worth it.
something I forgot to add, the P-47 at 72" of MAP was good for 2800hp, but there is evidence that they ran more power than this in combat. At minimum the P-47Ms got juiced up to a documented 76" (to their apparent detriment) and I've heard more than one tale of Jugs running 90-100 inches of mercury in the direst conditions. the R-2800 is easily past 3000hp at such a setting. Republic tested the R-2800 on an engine stand at 3600hp for some 250 hours straight

Given that the toothpick prop P-47 was some 20mph faster than the paddle prop version, and the contra-rotating "double twister" was ever so slightly faster still with I would assume a dramatically improved climb, I do wonder how fast the Jug might have sprinted and climbed running those mega horsepower numbers through twin props
 
Quite apart from all the engine and prop developments, but was there never any attempts to put 20 mm cannons on the P-47? Seems it could easily have carried four.
Probably a P-47 could have carried at least 6 but it would have required a redesign of the wing internals and I don't think it was ever a priority. 8 fifties is getting to be quite a lot to even consider upgrading, especially when you consider the jug had nearly infinite ammo and the M3 browning at ~1200rpm came out late in the war. Furthermore the US Navy was enamored with them but by the time the USAF decided to pursue 20mm cannons the P-47's successor's successor's successor (F-100) was already underway. Here was a one-off experiment with 2 under the wings.

671b0a4290d53e74782f73efb27518f9--the-wings-footage.jpg


here is the room in the wings for them to play around with. the wing spars seem to be designed around the length of a .50 bmg shell

gunbay-jpg.537267
 
Probably a P-47 could have carried at least 6 but it would have required a redesign of the wing internals and I don't think it was ever a priority. 8 fifties is getting to be quite a lot to even consider upgrading, especially when you consider the jug had nearly infinite ammo and the M3 browning at ~1200rpm came out late in the war. Furthermore the US Navy was enamored with them but by the time the USAF decided to pursue 20mm cannons the P-47's successor's successor's successor (F-100) was already underway. Here was a one-off experiment with 2 under the wings.

View attachment 709862


here is the room in the wings for them to play around with. the wing spars seem to be designed around the length of a .50 bmg shell

gunbay-jpg.537267
Looking at the photos of the wing structure of this restoration back in 2020 it doesn't appear to me that converting to 20mm cannon would be a big deal.

P-47 Restoration 2020
 
Regarding the contra-props for the P-47-

the Curtiss XP-60C from Jan '43 with its R-2800 and twin contra-rotating propellers

1699079559392.jpeg

I wonder what was the story with this engine and propeller combination in this plane or another
 
Regarding the contra-props for the P-47-

the Curtiss XP-60C from Jan '43 with its R-2800 and twin contra-rotating propellers
conv
I wonder what was the story with this engine and propeller combination in this plane or another
I doubt that the combination was especially successful. The succeeding P-60E used a conventional propellor with the R-2800. If a simpler. lighter, cheaper, more readily available four-bladed standard propellor could handle the R-2800's power, the contrarotating type would not seem to offer any advantages.,
 
Probably a P-47 could have carried at least 6 but it would have required a redesign of the wing internals and I don't think it was ever a priority.
6 fifties of the new M3 variant had the firepower of 8 of the old M2 guns. That would make the P-47 lighter and maybe increase its roll rate since the outer 4th gun and its ammo would be deleted. The XP-72 was to carry 6 M3 guns or 4 37mm cannons.
 
6 fifties of the new M3 variant had the firepower of 8 of the old M2 guns. That would make the P-47 lighter and maybe increase its roll rate since the outer 4th gun and its ammo would be deleted. The XP-72 was to carry 6 M3 guns or 4 37mm cannons.
Maybe, but in practice P-47 pilots always elected to carry 8 guns, even when allegedly some P-47Ns received the M3 in the final days of the war. There's no such thing as overkill!
 

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