Project 138 Heavy Cruiser (Spain, late 1930s)

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(h/t cattalonX)

Antonio said:
Tzoli said:
Those are not related to the Espana class.
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Exactly

Project 138 Heavy Cruiser

https://reportedebatalla.wordpress.com/2019/07/28/un-crucero-para-nukita-el-proyecto-138-de-espana/
http://foros.aceroyfuego.com/topic/1823-los-cruceros-españoles-bola-de-cristal/
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https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/5987-spanish-heavy-cruiser-project-138/
 
Dilandu said:
Tzoli said:
Design 138A: 4x3 20,3cm likely German guns
Design 138B: 3x2 30,5cm ex Espana guns
Design 138C: 2x3 28,3cm German Scharnhorst guns
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Where I could find any details about their designs, or design process?
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Links in the first post.
In books I don't know. The 3 drawings are certainly from a book similar to the Axis and Neutral Battleships of WW2.
 
Tzoli said:
Design 138A: 4x3 20,3cm likely German guns
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Likely but another possibility could be Spanish manufactured from "Canarias and Baleares" experience?

Source:
https://armada.defensa.gob.es/archivo/rgm/2012/08/cap02.pdf
Pg 239

"Pero como señala Ramírez Gabarrús el programa más ambicioso fue el de la fabricación de las torres y cañones de 203/50 mm de los cruceros pesados del plan de 1926, concretamente los Canarias y Baleares, que tanto juego dieron en la última Guerra Civil española. De las ocho torres que montaron aquellos cruceros, la primera, núm. 1 o A del Canarias era inglesa; las otras siete salieron de los talleres de San Carlos a partir de 1934 y fueron ejemplo y prueba de la capacidad de diseño con que se contaba entonces en cuanto a material artillero de lo más complejo y de los mayores calibres"

I'll try to get more info
 
Hello. I found what appears to be a new heavy cruiser proposal for Spain.
Perhaps it is of interest, however, it is only an idea (as far as I know), even if the person who mentions it is the most important figure in this country. In September 1925, the King of Spain (Alfonso XIII) told a high official of the Argentine Navy that in his country it was planned to build three heavy cruisers of twelve thousand tons and armed with 230 mm guns (aka 9 inches), since Spain did not have the naval restrictions of the Washington Treaty.
Apparently, for reasons of practicality, the idea was diminished towards the Canarias of 10,000 tons and 203 mm guns.
Edit 2: Copy of the document.
https://imgur.com/EPhsqAK
View: https://i.imgur.com/EPhsqAK.jpg

EPhsqAK.jpg


Edit 1: Maybe the idea was pretty similar to the Designs N°876P, N°1143 and N°1143A.

View: https://i.imgur.com/mCZCmcD.jpg

mCZCmcD.jpg

mCZCmcD.jpg
 
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Does anyone have armor stats for these ships?
 
Tzoli said:
Only 3 variant exists:
Design 138A: 4x3 20,3cm likely German guns
Design 138B: 3x2 30,5cm ex Espana guns
Design 138C: 2x3 28,3cm German Scharnhorst guns
Click to expand...
Perhaps it is more likely a Spanish-made copy of the 203mm Mark VIII? It's just that I'm not sure whether Spain has the capability to manufacture new triple turrets, and Germany's triple 203mm SK C/34 was also designed at roughly the same time. I think the Spaniards might not have been aware of their existence.
 
Italy offered cruiser designs for Spain so it could be Italian guns as well
 
Sounds like a good choice—and the secondary guns did indeed choose Italian weapons. But why didn't the Spanish choose their own 120mm Mark F? As far as I know, the Spanish version of the Vittorio Veneto-class battleships could have done so.
 
I do not know. Limited production capabilites?
 
I have recently been studying the Spanish Navy's expansion plans during the interwar period and World War II, and Project 138, as a kind of super-Washington cruiser, naturally caught my attention.However, I can't find sufficiently clear drawings on the Internet, which makes it difficult for me to obtain some information I want.For example, I noticed that various introductions mention that this cruiser would be equipped with four 75mm guns, but I couldn't find them on any of the drawings.So I have to guess whether they are external guns, mounted on the top of the B and X turrets.
Whether my guess is correct or not, I hope to obtain more relevant information!Does anyone on this forum have sufficiently clear blueprints? Or possess relevant publications? Thank you very much for your help!
I have attached my current set of drawings at the end, as you can see, they are very unclear.
75167dc7cb79f7ae4aed294818ddb59a.png
 
AMAYA said:
I have recently been studying the Spanish Navy's expansion plans during the interwar period and World War II, and Project 138, as a kind of super-Washington cruiser, naturally caught my attention.However, I can't find sufficiently clear drawings on the Internet, which makes it difficult for me to obtain some information I want.For example, I noticed that various introductions mention that this cruiser would be equipped with four 75mm guns, but I couldn't find them on any of the drawings.So I have to guess whether they are external guns, mounted on the top of the B and X turrets.
Whether my guess is correct or not, I hope to obtain more relevant information!Does anyone on this forum have sufficiently clear blueprints? Or possess relevant publications? Thank you very much for your help!
I have attached my current set of drawings at the end, as you can see, they are very unclear.
View attachment 809667
Click to expand...
According to the plans, this cruiser carried marines. I think the four 75mm cannons are landing cannons.

Un saludo.
 
AndyKru said:
17500View attachment 809696
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Thank you very much! This is very helpful to me! Are the other two tonnage plans generally similar to this one?
In addition, I noticed that some sources around 2011 claimed that Project 138 had once considered various different main and secondary gun options. The A, B, and C plans that we know today are just three of the widely circulated versions. ...
 
I checked the March 1949 issue of Ingeniería Naval in digital form, and here are the high-resolution blueprints of the 17,500-ton design from the original. I still haven’t found the blueprints for the other two designs; for now, I only have the concept illustrations that come with Battleships: Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II.
Other than that, the parameters listed in the original book are as follows:

17,500‑ton cruiser, 36 knots.
Project 138.
Principal characteristics of the vessel:
  • Length at waterline: 217.66 m
  • Overall length: 225.66 m
  • Moulded breadth: 23.58 m
  • Moulded depth: 12.80 m
  • Mean moulded draught: 6.15 m
Machinery: Four sets of geared turbines of the mixed impulse‑and‑reaction type, arranged in two alternating engine rooms; the outer shafts forward, the inner shafts aft. Six quick‑circulation boilers at 40 kg pressure, installed in three independent compartments.
  • Power: 170,000 shp
  • Speed: 36 knots
  • Endurance at economical speed: 7,000 nautical miles
Military armament:
  • Four triple 203 mm turrets with high‑angle elevation
  • Six twin 90 mm anti‑aircraft mounts
  • Sixteen 40 mm machine guns in twin mounts
  • Twenty 20 mm anti‑aircraft machine guns
  • One catapult; two aircraft
  • Two triple 533 mm torpedo tube sets
  • Four depth‑charge mortars
  • Two depth‑charge rails
  • Four protective paravanes
Protection: Its arrangement is clearly shown on drawing No. 51 and on the typical frame structure plans, where the underwater protection system can also be seen.

Horizontal armour:
  • Main deck: 75 mm non‑cemented armour steel
  • Powder and projectile magazine roofs: 100 mm cemented armour steel
Vertical armour:
  • Waterline belt: 150 mm cemented armour steel, extending from 1 m below the waterline up to the protected deck
  • Magazine sides: 150 mm cemented armour steel (In the book Battleships: Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II, the ammunition magazine armor is listed as 300mm, which is obviously a mistake.)
  • Transverse magazine bulkheads: 90 mm
  • Longitudinal and transverse bulkheads of important inhabited combat spaces: 50 mm
  • Barbette armour: 150 mm cemented armour steel
  • Turret faces: 150 mm; sides: 100 mm; roof: 100 mm; rear: 50 mm
  • Rangefinder supports and other fittings: 60 mm
  • Conning tower sides: 150 mm; roof: 100 mm
  • Communication tube: 100 mm
 

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AMAYA said:
I checked the March 1949 issue of Ingeniería Naval in digital form, and here are the high-resolution blueprints of the 17,500-ton design from the original. I still haven’t found the blueprints for the other two designs; for now, I only have the concept illustrations that come with Battleships: Axis and Neutral Battleships in World War II.
Other than that, the parameters listed in the original book are as follows:
Click to expand...
Thank you for the find! Would be very grateful if you would be able to find the 138B proposal; it's the one that interested me most.
 
Hmm quite a mix of equipments
Clearly British main turrets, Italian Heavy AA gun and directors/rangefinders, apparently not Bofors 40mm Light AA but looks like twin Pom-Poms? But horizontally placed rather vertically.
 
Tzoli said:
Hmm quite a mix of equipments
Clearly British main turrets, Italian Heavy AA gun and directors/rangefinders, apparently not Bofors 40mm Light AA but looks like twin Pom-Poms? But horizontally placed rather vertically.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's the kind that was once discussed on the forum:Spain's twin-mounted pom-pom
The Spanish pom-pom has a longer barrel and differs from the prototype in other ways. They were originally planned for use on the armed Canarias-class heavy cruisers, but the civil war messed up those plans, and the heavy cruisers ended up using German anti-aircraft weapons. Considering that Project 138 can be seen as a simple enlargement of the Canarias, it’s not too surprising that they were fitted with this type of medium anti-aircraft gun.
 
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AMAYA said:
Maybe it's the kind that was once discussed on the forum:Spain's twin-mounted pom-pom
The Spanish pom-pom has a longer barrel and differs from the prototype in other ways. They were originally planned for use on the armed Canarias-class heavy cruisers, but the civil war messed up those plans, and the heavy cruisers ended up using German anti-aircraft weapons. Considering that Project 138 can be seen as a simple enlargement of the Canarias, it’s not too surprising that they were fitted with this type of medium anti-aircraft gun.
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I remember a secret projects discussion, but your linked site wants 1 euro from me to read the entire article and it is spanish.
 
Tzoli said:
I remember a secret projects discussion, but your linked site wants 1 euro from me to read the entire article and it is spanish.
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Sorry, I forgot to update the clipboard content :(
That article was about the Spanish version of Joffre, and now I've replaced the link with the correct one.
Other than that, if you're also interested in that article, I recently got the full article through a tool, and I can show it under the related topic.
 
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Dilandu said:
Thank you for the find! Would be very grateful if you would be able to find the 138B proposal; it's the one that interested me most.
Click to expand...
Actually, I found a record like this on the website of the Barcelona Maritime Library: Crucero Super-Washington
From the title and the surrounding content, it seems to be the archive or even drawings related to Project 138. Unfortunately, the website neither provides a digital version nor allows a preview (at least I couldn’t find one), so I can’t be sure about the exact content. I’ve already contacted the library via email, but they haven’t replied yet.
 
The Barcelona Maritime Library sent me the scans, but unfortunately they only have the drawings for Plan A. Maybe Plans B and C are only held by departments like the Ministry of Defense, or perhaps the drawings were never completed :(
I’ve shared the scans as well. I tried making scans myself before, but I had to give up because my software reduces the image quality after scanning.
 

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AMAYA said:
The Barcelona Maritime Library sent me the scans, but unfortunately they only have the drawings for Plan A. Maybe Plans B and C are only held by departments like the Ministry of Defense, or perhaps the drawings were never completed :(
I’ve shared the scans as well. I tried making scans myself before, but I had to give up because my software reduces the image quality after scanning.
Click to expand...
Thank you very much!
 

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