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Project 1047 Battlecruiser (Royal Netherlands Navy)

Grey Havoc

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Roodbaard1958!

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I wrote some years a small article about this project, One of the shipyards involved was the Kon. Mij. De Schelde although it was almost certain that she would not get an order to built one, but the large shipyards at Amsterdam and Rotterdam. The article is in Dutch and can be found on this irl: http://www.edit.nl/vrienden/spiegel/DenSpiegel2018-01.pdf p. 14-
 

Tzoli

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Yes the Netherlands.nl site is the best comprehensive article and data source about these designs!
 

carsinamerica

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I always found it interesting that the Polish Navy's battleship specs were so similar. At least one online source says that if Poland had pursued its wildly unrealistic programme, it would have used the 1047 design.
 

Fr05ty

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I always found it interesting that the Polish Navy's battleship specs were so similar. At least one online source says that if Poland had pursued its wildly unrealistic programme, it would have used the 1047 design.
Do you have any data on this Polish Navy design? First I've heard of it, but it sounds intriguing!
 

Tzoli

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Ages ago I've posted somewhere (apart from the now gone warship projects forum) the Polish intended naval programme of what the admirals wanted between the two world wars and what Poland demanded from the Russians after ww1. It included Ganguts, Svetlana cruisers new build battleships and heavy cruisers. I've yet to find that post again...

This avalanche press mentions some parts of those programmes:
 

carsinamerica

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Do you have any data on this Polish Navy design? First I've heard of it, but it sounds intriguing!
From Breyer:
"The first major naval construction plan was debated in 1936/37. This was...a 'maximum programme'...and which envisaged the full participation of the Polish supply industry. Initially, this plan provided for two battleships with a standard displacement of 25 000 tons each, plus two heavy cruisers. In 1938/39 this plan was modified to provide for the construction of three battleships of 25 000 tons each, plus one aircraft carrier (dispensing with the originally planned heavy cruisers)," along with numerous smaller vessels.

The specifications Breyer lists are:
  • 350 mm maximum armor
  • Quadruple-screw, 120,000-140,000 shp for 30 knots
  • 3 x 3 30.5 cm, 12 x 15 cm (mounts unknown), unknown AA armament, 6 above-water torpedo tubes (2 x 3) on the main deck
  • Estimated cost: 162.5M zloty each
 

Tzoli

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I have some data on them as well.

The 1936 project heavy cruiser would be:
Displacement: 10.000tons standard
Engine power: 100.000shp 4 shafts
Armour: 76mm Deck, 200mm Belt
Armament:
3x3 203mm if I remember correctly, British guns
3x3 120mm Bofors guns (or 4x2 or maybe 3x2, not sure)
2x4 533mm Torpedo launchers

The Project 1939 Battleship:
Engine Power: 140.000shp, 4 shafts, 56km/h
Armour: 102mm Deck, 350mm Belt
3x3 305mm Cannons most likely of British origin
4x3 152mm Guns again probably British origin
2x3 533mm Torpedo tubes
 

Tzoli

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Now after re-checking the specifications and knowing the RN's battleship designs before the 1st London Naval Treaty, this Polish Battleships shows strong similarities with the Admirality 12inch designs of 1928/29 which range from 24.000 to 28500tons and from 8-9-12 cannons of various arrangement (4x2, 3x3, 5x2, 2x3,1x2, 4x3 with a 6" battery of 12 guns mostly in twin BD turrets or in single casemates.

I can think that this Polish BB would had been similar

Many years ago (like 10+??? )the now late Admiral Furushita made a hypothetical drawing:
 

carsinamerica

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Now after re-checking the specifications and knowing the RN's battleship designs before the 1st London Naval Treaty, this Polish Battleships shows strong similarities with the Admirality 12inch designs of 1928/29 which range from 24.000 to 28500tons and from 8-9-12 cannons of various arrangement (4x2, 3x3, 5x2, 2x3,1x2, 4x3 with a 6" battery of 12 guns mostly in twin BD turrets or in single casemates.

I can think that this Polish BB would had been similar

Many years ago (like 10+??? )the now late Admiral Furushita made a hypothetical drawing:
They're also an interesting juxtaposition with the Scharnhorst class. By the specs, only giving up a knot, the Polish models were somehow supposed to combine greater striking power, slightly thicker deck armor (same vertical armor), and an extra set of turbines, on 6,000 tons less.

Meanwhile, Avalanche Press claims they just went ahead and adopted the 1047 outright, more or less: "By the late 1930s, the Royal Netherlands Navy had decided to reinforce their fleet in the Netherlands East Indies with three battle cruisers, similar to the German Scharnhorst class. The Poles appear to have learned of this, and in 1939 modified their new fleet proposal to include three similar ships for Poland, apparently to be built in Dutch yards."
 

Tzoli

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I strognly suspect that these Polish ships would be akin to the Austro-Hungarian ones, eg sacraficing range for better armour and armament. And this is logical too as their action of radious was primary the Baltic. Though I think Coastal Defence ships woudl had been a better choice more numerous and almost as deadly.

Similar applies to the heavy cruiser, 76mm deck and 200mm belt is very good protection but range surely had to be sacraficed
 

ceccherini

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The project 1047 depended heavily on the collaboration with German industry and I really don't think Germans would ever cooperate in a effort to give Poland a strong naval presence in the Baltic. In 1938 RN had a requirement for a quite similar 12" gunned, 20k tons super cruiser and I think a likely scenario is Poland simply acquiring the British design had the war not intervened. The strong Polish collaboration with French naval industry would have made a Dunkerque based project the most effective solution but French seems to have been extremely unwilling to share capital ship plans at the time (Nederlands turned to Germans because of French refusals and while French actively exported destroyers I've never heard of any export battleship design or proposal from the '20/'30). Also a possible partner could have been Italy whose relations with Poland were quite strong back then and whose naval industry was very active in the export sector and was trying to sell to international customers several large cruiser/cruiser killer/small battleship designs. Also I remember of some Polish interest in acquiring some second hand R class battleships. The ships were to be replaced in a few years by the Lion class battleships and the slow speed and low metacentric height would be a lesser problem in the confined water of Baltic Sea, in fact Project Catherine provided for their use in the Baltic, while offering an armament comparable with that of the Bismarck class at low cost. Overall that seems to me the most logical and ultimately most probable solution to the Polish battleship's need.
 
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