No doubt AH64 is the front runner, but AH1 is likely a lower cost option. I imagine the number of offsets will be a key factor as well.
 
No doubt AH64 is the front runner, but AH1 is likely a lower cost option. I imagine the number of offsets will be a key factor as well.

I could see it going the way of the AH-64 too yasotay. But I do not want to knock the AH-1Z it is a good attack helicopter too.
 
I have to agree with @TomcatViP that radar is a key differential between first tier forces and others. Agree AH1 is a superb attack helo and superior at cost, but I do not think it can compete tactically in Europe.
 
What makes radar particularly useful in Europe?
(sorry, I have no clue about attack helicopter tactics)
 
they've mentioned that they will prioritize which could be delivered first.
I assume Ah-64 has more stocks lying around
 
What makes radar particularly useful in Europe?
(sorry, I have no clue about attack helicopter tactics)
Line of sight being cluttered by fog, high trees, foliage and clouds. And most importantly, shorad defenses radar that will spot you while you can't.
A radar also allow you to build an overall picture of the surrounding situation, something that provides superior situational awareness for better engagement results and survavibility.
 
Would a Lidar be better suited? Too big?
 
@helmutkohl - I think that both of the vendors have running production lines so neither is at a disadvantage there. Bell is selling to Slovakia so there could be a common source. Of course Netherlands and Britain are operating AH64 so it seems an advantage to Boeing for logistics concerns.

The radar, situated at the top of the rotor mast can be exposed without necessarily exposing the remainder of the aircraft to threat radar and other systems. The Longbow radar is a low probability of intercept waveform so it is more difficult to acquire. Also on the mast of the Longbow Apache is a Radio Frequency Inferometer (sp) (RFI) that allows the aircraft to acquire search and track radar waveforms. The latest version of the Apache AH-64E "Guardian" has a very impressive battle management systems that allows it to acquire targets and fire on a number of them in less than a minute. Likewise target data can be passed quickly to waiting artillery or fixed wing aircraft.

As much as I have a personal love of the Cobra, other than cost it is hard to see it as being able to truly compete with Apache Guardian.
 
LIDAR doesn't pass through foliage or fog
LIDAR systems that penetrate foliage have been demonstrated. See the following:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...age-penetrating_3D_imaging_laser_radar_system
and
and
 
Thanks for the heads up @bcredman !
You're welcome.

Also, there has been significant progress in LIDAR penetration of haze, fog, dust, and clouds using advanced processing, photon counting detection, time gating, polarization diversity, optical orbital angular momentum states, and/or Bessel beams:


https://opg.optica.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-31-10-16054&id=530152

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...4934c2c0cf286fe31268d9a/SPIE-Orlando-2008.pdf

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2013SPIE.8737E..0HM/abstract



https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/...n-discrimination-for/10.1117/12.2672463.short

https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/physics/articles/10.3389/fphy.2024.1356528/full

 

;)

Not sure how quickly you get decent imagery by LIDAR.
 
INOWROCŁAW, Poland, Aug. 13, 2024 The Government of Poland has signed a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) for 96 Boeing [NYSE: BA] AH-64E Apache combat helicopters, as part of the Polish KRUK Attack Helicopter program.

The Government of Poland selected the AH-64E Apache for the Polish Armed Forces’ new attack helicopter fleet in September 2022.

 

;)

Not sure how quickly you get decent imagery by LIDAR.
In the Phase III Jigsaw airborne lidar foliage penetration tests, a goal of the project which the system met was "process the 3D ladar data on-board and send the data to the ground observer to enable target detection and ID in near real time." Unfortunately, the paper about the system and the tests to which I previously provided a link does not specify the data collection times nor the near real time delay from data collection to 3D image display and target detection and ID.

I was a government evaluator of the Jigsaw system and attended the flight tests described in the paper. My recollection is that the sorties took several minutes to complete, but during each sortie, the lidar data was downloaded to the ground station, processed, and displayed within a few seconds delay as the data was collected during the flight, so we saw the 3D image of the area scanned built up as the helicopter flew over the area. Targets were detected and identified, and their 3D images were displayed within a few seconds after being scanned during the flight.

The Jigsaw Phase III tests took place in about 2005/2006. A more recent system that evolved from Jigsaw is MIT Lincoln Lab's PHOENIX High CASTLE: https://www.ll.mit.edu/r-d/projects/phoenix-high-castle :

"The high-resolution and high-area-coverage-rate 3D imagery provided by these ladar systems are well suited to geospatial mapping missions—for example, wide-area (hundreds of square kilometers per hour) mapping of desert, jungle, and urban terrain and foliage-penetration imaging of terrain obscured by dense tree canopy...The latest ladar system we developed is the PHOton Exploration and Novel Imaging eXperiments (PHOENIX) High-altitude Collaborative Airborne System for Tactical Lidar Experimentation (High CASTLE)...During a flight campaign conducted in Virginia from June through August 2021, we demonstrated PHOENIX High CASTLE. In more than 200 passes flown over 13 unique geographic locations across seven sorties, we generated eight terabytes of very high-resolution ladar data...A second flight campaign is planned for summer 2023."

The typical specs./requirements for automotive lidars usually include operation at 3D image rates of about 5 Hz to 30 Hz, which includes during operation in degraded atmospheres, in order to provide real time navigation, obstacle avoidance, and collision avoidance.
 
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INOWROCŁAW, Poland, Aug. 13, 2024 The Government of Poland has signed a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) for 96 Boeing [NYSE: BA] AH-64E Apache combat helicopters, as part of the Polish KRUK Attack Helicopter program.

The Government of Poland selected the AH-64E Apache for the Polish Armed Forces’ new attack helicopter fleet in September 2022.

Huh - people still buy Boeing products...
 
Huh - people still buy Boeing products...

At heart it's Hughes engineering, which was always high quality. Very little has been done structurally during its tenure with MDC and Boeing, the emphasis has been on avionics and engines.

Even the concept of mast-mounted sensors for the Apache dates back to the design phase, wtih the driveshaft separate from the main mast.
 
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Note though that Boeing's recent problems have been both in engineering (B737 MCAS) *AND* in manufacturing (door plug etc.).
 

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