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OS-130: Competitors to the Vought F-8 Crusader

overscan (PaulMM)

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From Tony Buttler. He is looking for;

North American's competitor to the Vought Crusader (spec was OS-130). This too had a variable incidence wing, but weighed 30,000lb which is why it lost. If anyone has a drawing or a model of this project, please let me know. It is one of the bigs gaps in the fighter book.

Can anyone help?

Paul.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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The requirement was issued in September 1952 to McDonnell, North American, Douglas, Convair, Lockheed, Grumman, Chance-Vought and Republic. Vought's V-383 was selected in May 1953.

Source:
  • Peter Mersky, Vought F-8 Crusader, Osprey Air Combat, 1989.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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A total of 21 proposals were submitted from eight different aircraft companies. The most viable proposals were deemed by the Navy to be the Grumman XF11F-2 (a version of the F11F Tiger powered by the General Electric J79), the McDonnell F3H-G (a twin-engined adaptation of the F3H Demon), and the North American "Super Fury" (a navalized F-100), plus the Vought submission, which was given the company designation V-383.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f8_1.html
 

elmayerle

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I got these pics courtesy of Bill Simone, author of Ginter's F-107 book. I suspect they depict the FJ-5.
 

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elmayerle

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Thanks. Tell Tony he'd best clear the use of those with Bill Simone first. I know he's got Bill's work email.

The nice thing about those is that it's eminently modelable. It's one of my projects that I'm gathering all the parts for. I figure I'll be doing it in production unit markings.

Oh, as far as I know, the Douglas F5D-2 was their entry in this competition.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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McDonnell F3H-G (a twin-engined adaptation of the F3H Demon)

According to Bill Guston's F-4 Phantom book, the F3H-G was only started when McDonnell lost the day fighter contest to Vought. This would make the above incorrect.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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According to Jeff Ethell, the F3H-G design was started in Summer 1953, immediately after losing the Day Fighter competition to Vought.

Presumably their design for this competition was an F3H derivative, but not F3H-G.
 

devi

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1) General Dynamics/Convair Model ?
2) Douglas Model 6??
3) Grumman Model 97
4) Lockheed Model CL-?/Model ?
5) McDonnell Model 98...
6) North American Model RD-? (or ?),"FJ-5"
7) Republic Model AP-? (or NP-?)
8) Vought Model 383--------------------------------XF8U-1
 

Pioneer

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I am very interested to see these designs. Although I am very sorry that I do not have much in the way of this topic, except that I think the F-8 was a great (but underated design by history) design

Regards
Pioneer
 

hesham

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Dear Devi,

the McDonnell model-98 was for F-4 Phantom II ,and didn't exist in that time.
 

hesham

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Devi,

for F-8 competition there were 22 proposals, from them were:

Northamerican Super Fury FJ-5,McDonnell F3H-G,Dopuglas F5D-1.
 

elmayerle

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Actually, I think Douglas was proposing the F5D-2, powered by a J79, as its entry. Given a F5D-1 kit and the aft end of a F-104 fuselage (with exhaust nozzle), you could easily model one of these.
 

Archibald

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...and I have this F-104 exhaust left by my CL-1200 Lancer. So I think about doing that model for some times now :)
 

Archibald

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According to Jeff Ethell, the F3H-G design was started in Summer 1953, immediately after losing the Day Fighter competition to Vought.
Presumably their design for this competition was an F3H derivative, but not F3H-G.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_1.html
 

elmayerle

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Archibald said:
...and I have this F-104 exhaust left by my CL-1200 Lancer. So I think about doing that model for some times now :)

Then you really need, if you don't already have it, the Ginter book on the F5D, since it has drawings of the F5D-2 proposal.
 

Antonio

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Grumman G-97 from

Minidocavia 7
Les Chasseurs navals américains 2ème partie. Alain Pelletier. Editions Larivière
(Highly recomended book for very little money!!!)
 

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devi

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Hi pometablava
It is personally difficult to me to get the book "Les Chasseurs navals américains" 2ème partie,
Minidocavia 7.
Please if it is possible tell about Model G-97 and about other projects which are in this fine to the book.
 

Antonio

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Grumman 97 data

Powerplant: 1 P&W J57; 6715 Kgp
V max: 1470 Km/h
Ceiling: 16 765 m
Max weight: 9,7 t
Span: 10,2
Lenght: 13,2
Armament: 4x20 mm cannon and 4 Sparrow AAM
 

Antonio

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Slightly off-topic but here it is the list of USN unbuilt Fighters in MiniDocavia 7

Grumman XF9F-1 (4 jet)
Vought V-346C
Douglas D-571
Douglas D-592
Douglas F3D-3
Grumman XF12F
Grumman Type 97
Douglas F6D
Douglas D-790
Lockheed CL-520
McDD Type 225
Grumman Type 607
 

devi

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Hi pometablava.

Many thanks for the information
Please if it is possible tell about Douglas D-592(3-view drawings,figure & Specifications), and it participated in what competition?
If is in it to the book 3-view drawings of Grumman Type 97 please show us.
 

Antonio

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Hi Devi,

it is a pleasure to share knowledge ;)

No G-97 3 view is available in my sources. I'm sorry.

Little info is available about D-592. It was an all weather interceptor with radar and missile armament. It was an unsolicited submission from Douglas to the US Navy in 1948 but remained as a project only. Span: 9,80 m and Lenght: 12,0 m

Source: Minidocavia 7

(If anybody is interested in Editions Larivière products you can ask here (georgie.murat@editions-lariviere.fr) as I did, they are very kind and speak English ;))
 

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devi

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Hi pometablava.

Many thanks for the information.
Quite interesting project.

Also I think, what if Douglas participated at competition with McDonnell Model 58 (XF3H-1) it would be project Model D-59? Or D-60?( not D-592 and not D-593)
and, how you think?
 

Antonio

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In my opinion, Douglas contender in the same competition with McDonnell model 58 would have a design number near "600" because D-592 dates back from 1948 and Mc Donnell Model 58 was designed a few years later. This week I'll do some research on the subject

cheers

Antonio
 

Matej

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Devi,

If you are searching for any navy competition, I highly recommend you to search in this magazines (link from U.S. VSTOL thread):

http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/backissues/newbackissues.htm

Read them and after year or two please refer what you know ;D I just downloaded them - some 4500 MB of stuff.
 

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A-7 resecue flight capsule

Source: Naval Aviation News july/1971

F-8 with canards (ough!)

Source: Naval Aviation News may/1971
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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According to Tony Buttler:

McDonnell's submissions to the OS-130 requirement (F8U Crusader) were the Models 90 and 91. These were very similar and basically showed a Demon fuselage coupled with a straight F-104-type wing. They were rejected of course and the F3H-G/H series followed soon afterwards.
 

devi

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eight manufacturers: 21 or 22 projects.

1) Grumman Model G-97
Model G-98
2) McDonnell Model M-90
Model M-91
3) Vought Model V-383--------XF8U-1
Model V-384(probably)
4) Convair Model ? and ....
5) Douglas Model D-6?? and ...
6) North American Model RD-? ( or ?) and ....
7) Lockheed TDN Model L-2?? and ...
8) Republic Model AP-? and ...(or NP-? and ...)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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According to Bill Gunston in "Fighter's of the Fifties", as well as F-100B (NA-211) and F-107 (NA-212) a third version was designed for the Navy as "Super Fury" but was not assigned an NA- series designation.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Among the profusion of submissions were canard (tail first) designs, one with variable sweep, and fighters with three or four engines

Source:

Bill Gunston, Fighters of the Fifties, PSL, 1981
 

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In a back issue of The Hook I have somewhere in storage is a small artist's rendering purported to be NA's entry in the competition that brought us the F-8. It looks very much like a Navalised F-100, but with high wing, and side intakes.
The aircraft is in gloss blue, with a single letter tailcode, which should date it to around the early to mid fifties.

Gary
 

elmayerle

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I've posted pictures here of a model of another NAA proposal, the one that looks like a navalized cross between the F-107 and the F-100, using the F-100's pitot inlet in place of the fully-variable one of the F-107 and clearly have a rear fuselage that carries a J57, not a J75.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Gary - welcome to the forum.

If you get a chance, Tony Buttler would be most grateful for a scan of the pic or a reference as to which issue it appeared in.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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July's Air Enthusiast will feature an article on Competitors to the Vought F-8 Crusader, probably by Tony Buttler.
 

garys

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Thank you. I've been a lurker for a while. I will try and dig that issue up.

Gary
 

Mark Nankivil

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A couple of photos of a display model in the possession of the Vought Retiree's Club aka - Heritage Foundation. This is a very early look at the F-8 and gives an idea of where it evolved from. Too bad a bubble canopy did not remain as part of the final design...

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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July/August's Air Enthusiast is here, with Tony Buttler's article "Crusader Rivals" based on a chapter from his forthcoming book. Highly recommended!

Model pics: Vought V-383, Grumman G-97 (Manufacturer models), N-94 (John Hall)
Drawings: Vought V-383, V-384, Northrop N-94 (side views), Grumman G-97, Lockheed Model 242-1, McDonnell-Douglas Model 90, North American Navy Super Fury (3 view)

Mentioned without illustration: Douglas D-652 (Skyhawk based), D-653 (Skyray based), McDonnell-Douglas Model 91, 93, Northrop N-94A/B/C.

The Super Fury project is the one shown earlier in this topic and not the one described above by "Garys". I think the one described by Garys is the actual NAA submission, so hopefully he'll get around to posting it.
 

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Envy, envy, not yet in newsstands in Italy... Grrrr
 

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