Original French MASURCA ship program

Like many words, "fanciful" has shades of meaning. It can mean unrealistic, or flight of imagination (Look it up if you have any doubts). I am aware that she was designed for Mascura. Beyond budgetary issues, I would speculate that it was not installed because, yes, it was very expensive, but also technically demanding. This was a school ship training cadets in basic seamanship and other aspects of the naval profession. Given limited funds (always the case), and operating a state of the art system on a ship not primarily involved with fleet escort, why not install it on a more appropriate platform (Colbert), where it would be a primary system and given all necessary attention? I do not read or speak French. Therefore, have no source or documentation for such thoughts.

The painting, which I like, but is unrealistic as it does not include the usual pair of DRBR 51 radars, nor DRBV 20C (or equivalent long range air search radar) which would be essential for missile guidance. The blueprint you posted does show such systems.

After the end of the Cold War, the US Navy's ASW abilities atrophied to an alarming extent. Sure, helicopters were still carried, ASROC launchers and Mk 32 torpedos remained aboard, but training fell by the wayside (this is well documented). I am sure we agree that simply carrying systems does not mean being able to capably use them.

It's a complex story. The French Navy needed air defense of the fleet but was essentially split into three conflicting factions - on budget grounds

- French missiles expensive national pride... Masurca (on 2*Suffrens plus "some other ships" if possible)
- US missiles: Tartar (on T-47 destroyers)
- F-8 Crusaders (on Foch & Clem' )

Technically the three systems were complementary BUT they conflicted on... budget, at a time when the Force de Frappe was sucking military budgets like a black hole (it cost France $10 billion dollars, half the sum the USA spent on Apollo and five time more than Concorde).



What happened was that the Masurca was seen as cumbersome and expensive, and - most importantly - the third Suffren was screwed to pay for those 42 Crusaders. This created such a vicious rift and debate amid the French Navy, legend said it went as high as President De Gaulle himself. Whose son Philippe - still alive and kicking today, aged 99 ! - had been a sailor in WWII and ended Admiral. So De Gaulle asked his son, bluntly
"Crusaders or Suffren-Masurca ? what makes more sense ?"
"Crusaders" was the answer.

And so the third Suffren was screwed, making the third Masurca system orphan - no hull for it.
Or maybe an alternative could be found ? could some existing ship, larger than a 7000 tons Suffren, take that third system ?
Choices were
- Jean Bart & Richelieu battleships: way too big and expensive, retired by 1960 as manpower hogs
- the three cruisers left since 1945-55
a) De Grasse (too old, ended as Moruroa floating nuclear command post instead)
b) Jeanne d'Arc - the initial choice
c) Colbert - why not ?

Choice was Colbert.

Bottom line: national pride mandated Masurca french missiles, reality forced Tartar and Crusaders instead. Putting a third Masurca system on Colbert was an opportunistic move by an already cash-strapped French Navy - it hasn't improved since 1973, unfortunately...
 
Well @JFC Fuller in this thread early posts got the whole story better than I ever had. I readily agree with him that the matter is damn confusing !

Circa 1958 Masurca seems to have popped on a large number of ship projects, from Suffren to PA58 Verdun (if not the Richelieu battleships).
"Official" plan was for six Suffrens in two batches of three - except the second one never happened while the first was amputated to two, because Crusaders.
The investment in Masurca and its capabilities however had been such that "alternative existing hulls" were considered to at least have three systems, as per the "pre-Crusader Suffren plan". That third Masurca thus had to find itself a hull, and Colbert it was. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_cruiser_Colbert_(C611)

I would say the Masurca- Jeanne d'Arc connection could be either

- 1958 original design, when a lot of french projects had Masurca including the PA58 carrier
- 1963-64: post Crusaders, "replace that third Suffren" alternative. Except that by this point, conventional weapons budgets were quite literally being... nuked by the Force de Frappe massive cost for a medium power like France.

And yes it is confusing. But after May 1958 and De Gaulle return to power, a lot of military programs were screwed for the Force de Frappe nuclear weapons.
The 1958 AdA fighter procurement plan was hodgepodge of SMB-2 to Trident interceptors - all of them butchered for Mirage III and Force de Frappe.
The butchering of conventional weapon systems, even advanced, to pay for the FDF, was a constant and an absolute necessity all the way from 1958 to 1968 at least - and even beyond.

From 1952 onwards a fast recovering French Aerospace industry fired by all tubes in every domain: lot of advanced programs, including missiles... like Masurca.

By 1958 all those programs were ramping up - for better and worse - and sucking money. Only to get nuked by De Gaulle: literally I mean.

Bottom line: plenty of expensive "non nuclear military goodies" were axed to pay for the nuclear toys. Navy, Army, AdA all suffered accordingly. That, plus NATO and the end of Algerian war...
 
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Weren't the various Italian Bofors guns and mounts (OTO-Breda and OTO-Malera) considered Point Defence or early CIWS?
Yes. How well any of the gun based CIWSs actually work is open to question. OTO Melara's Super Rapido 76mm with DART (guided) ammunition can hit at longer ranges.

Here is a chart copied from Wikipedia's Dardo page.

Comparison of some modern CIWS
Russia AK-630[1]United States Phalanx CIWS[2]Netherlands Goalkeeper CIWSItaly DARDO[3]
Weight9,114 kg (20,093 lb)6,200 kg (13,700 lb)9,902 kg (21,830 lb)5,500 kg (12,100 lb)
Armament30 mm (1.2 in) 6 barreled GSh-6-30 Gatling Gun20 mm (0.79 in) 6 barreled M61 Vulcan Gatling Gun30 mm (1.2 in) 7 barreled GAU-8 Gatling Gun40 mm (1.6 in) 2 barreled Bofors 40 mm
Rate of Fire5,000 rounds per minute4,500 rounds per minute4,200 rounds per minute600/900 round per minute
(effective/ flat-trajectory) Range4,000 m (13,000 ft)2,000 m (6,600 ft)3,600 m (11,800 ft)4,000 m (13,000 ft)
Ammunition storage2,000 rounds1,550 rounds1,190 rounds736 rounds
Muzzle velocity900 m (3,000 ft) per second1,100 m (3,600 ft) per second1,109 m (3,638 ft) per second1,000 m (3,300 ft) per second
Elevation−13 to +78 degrees−75 to +55 degrees−75 to +64 degrees−13 to +85 degrees
Traverse360 degrees-150 to +150 degrees360 degrees360 degrees
 
Weren't the various Italian Bofors guns and mounts (OTO-Breda and OTO-Malera) considered Point Defence or early CIWS?
Yes. How well any of the gun based CIWSs actually work is open to question. OTO Melara's Super Rapido 76mm with DART (guided) ammunition can hit at longer ranges.


True. Though until DART actually deployed, it was questionable whether 76mm was any better than the more specialized CIWS. Guns with closed-loop fire control (Phalanx, Goalkeeper, and a few others) at least had a decent chance of scoring a direct hit, even if they tended to be make their hits uncomfortably close to the ship.
 
I find the idea of building a brand new large ship with dedicated substantial helicopter capabilities as highly suspicious if not outright false.
Jeane D'Arc was never 'just a training ship'.
 
I find the idea of building a brand new large ship with dedicated substantial helicopter capabilities as highly suspicious if not outright false.
Jeane D'Arc was never 'just a training ship'.
Who said she was just a training ship? Her primary role was training officer cadets, doing fall and spring cruises, which is well documented. She replaced a ship of the same name, with the same function. Which was a training ship that, if needed, had a combat capability. Other nations have and did/do employ new build training ships. For example, the Bundesmarine had Deutschland, while the JMSDF has Kashima.
 
I find the idea of building a brand new large ship with dedicated substantial helicopter capabilities as highly suspicious if not outright false.
Jeane D'Arc was never 'just a training ship'.
It was a Swiss-knife ship...
In the training role it has been replaced by one of the Mistral amphibious.
 
I find the idea of building a brand new large ship with dedicated substantial helicopter capabilities as highly suspicious if not outright false.
Jeane D'Arc was never 'just a training ship'.
As well as the previous bearer of said name (training cruiser of 1930s), she was a fully-capable warship, which have additional facilities and accomodations for naval students.
 
I find the idea of building a brand new large ship with dedicated substantial helicopter capabilities as highly suspicious if not outright false.
Jeane D'Arc was never 'just a training ship'.
I would say you got the concept backwards. It is not a training ship with warship capability on top but the other way around: warship first plus training role.
1930 Jeanne : light cruiser, plus training.
1960 Jeanne: LPH, plus training.
Nowadays it is : Mistral amphib, plus training.
 
Jeanne d'Arc was probably more akin to the Royal Navy's Escort Cruiser concept of the time - an anti-submarine platform that was versatile to fulfill a Cold War fleet escort role but also serve in a 'warm war' as an amphibious assault support ship with command capabilities and an imposing peacetime ship for 'showing the flag'. And on her training cruises she certainly fulfilled that role and the French got their monies worth out of her.

Had she got Crotale in the 1980s she would have been a good all-rounder I think.
 
Also hospital ship / disaster relief. There is a very long naval tradition there - for example the horrible earthquake in 1960 that leveled Agadir, Marocco. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Agadir_earthquake

The old carriers once played that role: Arromanches (until 1974), Lafayette, Bois Belleau. The Jeanne had a similar role. PH75 was to be the logical end of all this. Nowadays, the BPC have taken that role.
 
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