Original French MASURCA ship program

[JFC Fuller]

I am utterly confused about the original French plans for the deployment of this missile, the wiki page for the Suffren class destroyers states that six ships were originally planned and that this became two batches of three (the second tentative?) then just two ships when the money for the third was used for the Crusader purchase, I also have a book that states that 8 ships were originally planned. However, another source says that only five Masurca systems were ever actually ordered.

Further confusing matters is that the 1958 French budget which included funding for PA58 also included funding for what is described as a light guided missile cruiser (which Jane's at the time describe as being 5,000 tons) which was apparently cancelled alongside PA58 in 1961, was this the first ship of the Suffren class or some offer concept?

 

[JFC Fuller]

Matters further confused, Jeanne d'Arc was originally designed to have the Masurca system mounted forward but it wasn't ready in time and was never installed (it was apparently the system that was allocated to Jeanne d' Arc that made it onto Colbert). I still have no confirmation either way on the supposed light cruiser concept of 1958 but I am currently leaning towards this being the first incarnation of the Suffren class which seem to have been described as cruiser-destroyers and came in at over 5,000 tons. The two batches of three missile frigates/destroyers also seem to have been a reality with the first three planned for 1959-64 and the second three planned for 1965-1969. I assume in this scenario Colbert would not have been reconstructed with the system but that is also unclear?

 

[JohnR]

I purchased John Jordan's books French Cruisers and Destroyers largely because I like the prewar light cruisers and the contre torpilleurs, but also in the hope that some details of the early guided weapons program were mentioned but there was little there apart from details of Colbert's conversion. I'm looking forward to any details that this thread uncovers.

Regards.

 

[JFC Fuller]

I am afraid all I have managed to find thus far are the following images of Jeanne d'Arc's planned Masurca fit:

 

[JFC Fuller]

The following (when translated through google translate at least) hints at the origin of the Suffren class:

C’est en 1956 qu’un projet de croiseur-escorteur est étudié. Initialement nommé croiseur lance-engins, il prend la désignation de frégate F 60 avant de devenir frégate lance-engins FLE 60. Reprenant l’ancienne appellation de frégate qui désignait autrefois croiseurs, le Suffren est long de 158 mètres sur 14, 60 de large. Il s’apparente aux destroyers lance-engins britannique de la classe Devonshire et aux frégates américaines guided missiles destroyers leader (DLG). Il est doté de turbines à vapeur qui lui permettent d’avancer à 34 nœuds au maximum. Equipé d'appareils électriques et électroniques qui ont nécessité la mise en place de 300 kilomètres de câbles multiconducteurs, il est protégé contre les radiations radioactives. Il se destine à la défense contre les avions, les bâtiments légers (et éventuellement contre la terre) et à la protection anti-sous- marine des deux porte-avions français. Sa construction aura nécessité quatre millions d'heures de travail, dont un million pour les études (1 600 ouvriers y ont travaillé). D’après ANONYME, « Lancement de la frégate Suffren, Lorient le 15 mai », Marine, n°48, 1965 ; La Liberté du Morbihan, « M. Messmer devant le Suffren : "cette réalisation montre le niveau technique d'une nation" », 18 mai 1965 ; La Liberté du Morbihan, « Demain à l'arsenal, sortie de forme de la frégate lance-engins "Suffren" et du bâtiment de soutien logistique "Rance" », 15 mai 1965 ; SHD, Lorient, 1A13 43, Bâtiment de soutien logistique électronique (tranche 1959), mise en chantier et autorisation de programme, 24 août 1959.

From: https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-01218228/document

 

[Pioneer]

It's a grave pity that the Jeanne d'Arc wasn't fitted with the Masurca systems! Would have made it a very versatile ship!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[uk 75]

Fascinating thread, not least because Masurca is close to what a second generation long range UK missile might have
looked like and the Arc is I suspect the inspiration for the Escort Cruiser designs in the late 50s early 60s.
The Suffrens were similar in role to the County class, but had Malafon ASW instead of a helo.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Amiral Henri Nomy (1899-1971) played a major role in rebuilding the MN postwar, as chief of the naval staff 1951 – 1960.

In 1956, he initiated the planning of a construction programme of missile-armed ships for the 1958-1970 time-span.

The first phase, to be implemented between 1958 and 1965, comprised of different units, and had at its core an escorteur-croiseur (escort cruiser), a conventionally-powered surface unit with a full-load displacement of 8300 tonnes. ASW armament and sensors were a towed sonar and a 305mm mortar; anti-ship MALAFACE SSM and three 100mm modèle 1953 turrets; AAW: one MASALCA single launcher, one MASURCA twin launcher.

For the second phase 1965-1970, amiral Nomy supported nuclear-powered propulsion based on a standardized nuclear power unit derived from the PAT naval PWR protoype then being developed by CEA GPN for the forthcoming SNLE Redoutable SSBN-class, with a power of 30MW. The nuclear-powered escorteur-croiseur would have needed two reactors, displaced 10 160 tonnes fully laden. The sonar suite was DUBV-23D-1 hull-sonar and DUBV-43 “fish”, ASW missile MALAFON, 4 torpedo catapults for heavy ASW torpedoes ; two 100mm modèle 1953 turret and two twin MASURCA launchers.

Nomy retired in 1960 and by 1962 the SNLE programme started consuming an ever increasing share of the new construction budget. All that was left were three and then two C60 (to be F60) DLG (Suffren class), that can be seen as the nuclear escorteur-croiseur sensor suite and weapon system in the hull of the 1958 conventionally-powered escorteur-croiseur.

 

[orlovsky]

This report from the french Senate has some information on p 19: https://www.senat.fr/rap/1964-1965/i1964_1965_0023_03_41.pdf

Six missile frigates were planned. Three in the first plan, three of a "second generation" for the second plan 1965-70.

Accordingly, the first Suffren was authorised in the 1960 budget, the second one in 1962 and then the third one in 1963; this last one cancelled fur the F-8 buy.

The budget 1964 included an authorisation to start the program for the three "second generation" ships, but that item got deleted and the program ended there. The only information on this ship is that it would have had 7000 tons, while the Suffrens were usually given at 4400 tons (an extra light weight; for comparison, Clemenceau class 22000 tons, while full load would be about 32000 tons).

The information on wiki seems to assume that FLE 2nd gen would have been just a modified Suffren, but the report indicates a much larger vessel. But no additional information, so it is unclear whether Masurca would have been fitted. Probably yes, as it was the only domestic system.

 

[uk 75]

There is a very full Wiki on the cruiser Colbert which describes its role in the Marine Nationale and thus explains why Colbert rather than Arc got the third Masurca system.

French cruiser Colbert (C611) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

A very interesting contrast with the Seaslug which was fitted in 8 Countys. France was content to re use Tartar launchers for its two follow on Air Defence destroyers in the 80s, upgraded to Standard MR. The RN had developed Seadart and fitted it to the numerous T42s.

 

[JohnR]

Was there ever any plans to convert De Grasse as she wasn't that much older than Colbert and was almost a contemporary to the Dutch De Zeven Provincien both laid down in 1939 and completed in 1953 and 1956 respectively.

Were any of the earlier cruisers considered for conversion or were the felt to be to old. Although the Italians converted Garibaldi which was a contemporary of the La Galissomniere.

 

[Archibald]

I've looked into this. De Grasse hull was too old, tech wise. Would have been too complicated and expensive, particularly that MASURCA beast of a system.
The older cruisers were even worse in that regard.

 

[orlovsky]

It might have made sense to refit De Grasse and Colbert with Terrier around 1960. This did not happen, maybe because both vessels had just been completed with their gun outfit.

Croiseurs De Grasse et Colbert : refonte Terrier ?

Blog proposant souvent de suivre les programmes anciens, nouveaux de la Marine nationale et parfois de faire de même pour les marines étrangères.

lefauteuildecolbert.blogspot.com

But in 1970, De Grasse had been a command ship for the nuclear test campaigns for four years, and the hull goes back to 1937. Also, internally it had very little in common with Colbert. So you'd get another one-off entity with a large crew and little life left.

 

[Archibald]

This blog is pretty good but Terrier is the author going whatif...

 

[orlovsky]

For Colbert, there seems to have been a study:

" Une étude fut pourtant menée, en 1957, afin de modifier le croiseur Colbert (5 mai 1959 - 1991) dans l'optique de le doter du système d'arme RIM-2 Terrier. ... L'Ingénieur Général Maurice Brunet relate que "l'étude avait montré que c'était possible [d'intégrer un système RIM-2 Terrier sur le Colbert] et que ce n'était pas tellement coûteux, mais la Marine n'a pas donné suite" (Maurice Vaisse (dir.), Armement et Ve République : Fin des années 1950, fin des années 1960, Paris, CNRS éditions, 2002, 576 pages)."

 

[Dilandu]

I've looked into this. De Grasse hull was too old, tech wise. Would have been too complicated and expensive, particularly that MASURCA beast of a system.
The older cruisers were even worse in that regard.

Well, Italians done that on "Garibaldi", which was even older...

 

[orlovsky]

And the Zeven Provincien had a rather similar story to De Grasse. I have seen the idea that the way De Grasse was constructed would cause a problem for a missile refit, but nothing substantial.

Looking at the fitting for Masurca in the Jeanne d'Arc, the magazine would seem to fit in the stern area as it is shown here: http://www.netmarine.net/bat/croiseur/degrasse/caracter.htm

Of course, this may be misleading; but De Grasse was about 30 years old when Masurca was ready, so it is not surprising this was not considered.

 

[Dilandu]

Seems that the most promising ships for refit were two battleships, but they were costly and manpower-demanding...

 

[starviking]

Looking at the fitting for Masurca in the Jeanne d'Arc, the magazine would seem to fit in the stern area as it is shown here: http://www.netmarine.net/bat/croiseur/degrasse/caracter.htm

Surely you mean De Grasse, not Jeanne d’Arc?

 

[Archibald]

Yep. JB and Richelieu rarely sailed together if never... only once, in 1956. Even in the Suez crisis JB was under manned with few turrets ready to fire.

 

[orlovsky]

Looking at the fitting for Masurca in the Jeanne d'Arc, the magazine would seem to fit in the stern area as it is shown here: http://www.netmarine.net/bat/croiseur/degrasse/caracter.htm

Surely you mean De Grasse, not Jeanne d’Arc?

Look at the 2nd drawing in post #4, Jeanne d'Arc was planned with Masurca. This, at least as drawn, should have fitted in De Grasse.

 

[orlovsky]

Top view of the masurca arrangement in Jeanne d'Arc.

 

[uk 75]

The RN wanted its own version of Jeanne and the two Italian helicopter cruisers

Andrea Doria-class cruiser - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sadly, we ended up with Tiger and Blake instead.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

The RN wanted its own version of Jeanne and the two Italian helicopter cruisers

Andrea Doria-class cruiser - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sadly, we ended up with Tiger and Blake instead.

Tiger and Blake were stop gaps because the Naval Design Staff were overloaded and the large helicopters designed to meet NAST.358 would not be in service until after 1971. There was no capacity or reason to design a new-build ship, which would likely have a flight-deck like the Escort Cruiser Design Studies and the Invincibles, and would not be comparable to either Jeanne D'Arc or Andrea Doria.

 

[uk 75]

ATFP you are of course right to explain why the RN went along the path it did. My schoolboy love of pawing through Janes keeps coming to the surface, the Italian cruisers made me jealous then and now.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

ATFP you are of course right to explain why the RN went along the path it did. My schoolboy love of pawing through Janes keeps coming to the surface, the Italian cruisers made me jealous then and now.

Given the capacity to design and build a new ship during period, I don't think the Tiger conversions should be that denigrated. It probably doesn't help that I have an attachment to their original gun-cruiser form.

The Italian ships are certainly good looking, and capable for their time, but they are designed for a Mediterranean navy, with the associated problems with endurance and living spaces.

 

[uk 75]

The comparison is indeed unfair. The drawings of the early RN escort cruiser designs took many years and lots of work to evolve into the Invincibles.
The Tiger class conversions seemed a simple and cost effective solution as the artists impression suggested.
It took rather longer and a lot more money to get the real thing. But in a 70s RN shorn of carriers they were important assets, providing ASW Seakings and gunnery support.
Linking this diversion back to the thread, the RN did not have the Terrier/Masurca option as it had its own DLG programme with Seaslug.
Masurca demonstrated how expensive and complicated a Terrier style system would be to deploy and makes Seaslug more understandable.

 

[Archibald]

The MASURCA was not a major success. Most of MN fleet SAM capability went to the T47 Tartar ships, to the point their systems were passed to the Cassard class... still in service last time I checked. Basically the French Navy used the Tartar for 60 years, 1960 to 2020 !!

 

[uk 75]

The UK for various reasons discussed fully in other threads did not buy Terrier or Tartar. Seaslug was earlier than Masurca and Seadart later.
Suffren, Duquesne and the 4 T53s are roughly comparable with 8 Countys but there is then a long wait for the 2 Cassards.
The RN deploys 4 plus 4 plus 4 T42s with Seadart.

 

[NH 17]

I was half-joking. Was wondering how did the Jeanne compared to the italian helicopter cruisers and Moskva ?

Wish I knew more. Moskva was a reply to Polaris SSBNs. Multiple helicopters needed to be kept aloft over long periods to prosecute a contact. They needed a big deck for that. Then, in classic Soviet fashion, a guided missile cruiser was clamped on up front. Makes sense. The USN had the CVSs to do the multiple airframe thing, at least for a time. I was on Caio Duilio once and asked so many questions that the tour officer suggested that I must be a spy. The Italian helo cruisers compare quite favorably with USN DLGs, which are of similar size and purpose. Jeanne D'Arc is bigger and slower than the Italian's, and doesn't have the comprehensive weapons fit of either the Italian or Soviet vessels. However, her primary role was as a school ship, a nice luxury. ASW was likely way down on her capability list, with training, amphibious assault, command and disaster relief coming out ahead. Once the Exocets were aboard, throw in ASUW.

Here is a fanciful painting of her fitted with a Mascura launcher.

 

[H_K]

Here is a fanciful painting of her fitted with a Mascura launcher.

Not fanciful… Masurca was actually part of Jeanne d’Arc’s originally designed armament but was delayed for budget reasons and eventually installed on the AA cruiser Colbert instead during its 1970-72 refit.

See Jeanne D’Arc plans (as designed) here: http://3dhistory.de/wordpress/warsh...pter-carrier-jeanne-d-arc-1961-as-build-1961/

 

[TomS]

Jeanne D'Arc is bigger and slower than the Italian's, and doesn't have the comprehensive weapons fit of either the Italian or Soviet vessels. However, her primary role was as a school ship, a nice luxury. ASW was likely way down on her capability list, with training, amphibious assault, command and disaster relief coming out ahead. Once the Exocets were aboard, throw in ASUW.

I think she was quite a credible wartime ASW ship. The absence of serious AAW was the main concern, so she'd definitely need a close escort of some sort to provide that protection.

The inclusion of Exocet would not make her a primary AsuW asset -- remember that the RN Invincible were supposed to get Exocet as well, it was regarded as a self-defense weapon as much as anything.

 

[NH 17]

Here is a fanciful painting of her fitted with a Mascura launcher.

Not fanciful… Masurca was actually part of Jeanne d’Arc’s originally designed armament but was delayed for budget reasons and eventually installed on the AA cruiser Colbert instead during its 1970-72 refit.

See Jeanne D’Arc plans (as designed) here: http://3dhistory.de/wordpress/warsh...pter-carrier-jeanne-d-arc-1961-as-build-1961/

Great blueprint images. Thanks for that. I will use that resource. The painting depicts a Mascura launcher without a director. In her 46 year career, the Marine Nationale never found the funds to install the missile system. The image remains a flight of imagination (fanciful).

 

[NH 17]

Jeanne D'Arc is bigger and slower than the Italian's, and doesn't have the comprehensive weapons fit of either the Italian or Soviet vessels. However, her primary role was as a school ship, a nice luxury. ASW was likely way down on her capability list, with training, amphibious assault, command and disaster relief coming out ahead. Once the Exocets were aboard, throw in ASUW.

I think she was quite a credible wartime ASW ship. The absence of serious AAW was the main concern, so she'd definitely need a close escort of some sort to provide that protection.

The inclusion of Exocet would not make her a primary AsuW asset -- remember that the RN Invincible were supposed to get Exocet as well, it was regarded as a self-defense weapon as much as anything.

 

[NH 17]

As stated above, her primary role was that of a school ship. Adding Exocet was a fairly cheap way to enhance the limited ASUW capabilities provided by the 100mm guns, not to make her a strike cruiser.

She was a wartime mobilization resource. That could work well, as she was adaptable to be optimized for whatever role may be required. It could also be a hinderance, as, given short notice, she may not have been really ready for anything other than her general training role.

As for ASW, she had that tremendous flight deck, as well as storage for a lot more aircraft than any frigate. Her sonar, variously reported as DUBV 24 or SQS 503, is a standard model for escorts of that period. Given training and a proper aircraft fit, I agree that she had credible ASW potential. It is my understanding that she made fall and spring cruises for officer cadets. I don't know how much (or little) of that involved working out ASW tactics.

 

[H_K]

In her 46 year career, the Marine Nationale never found the funds to install the missile system. The image remains a flight of imagination (fanciful).

In my book “fanciful” implies something that is unrealistic, made up. In this case Jeanne d’Arc was designed for Masurca and the system was still being shown on her plans when she was in service in 1965. However due to a combination of technical delays and budgetary cuts in the end the system that was intended for her was installed on Colbert instead.

As far as her ASW capabilities, the 4 HSS helicopters she operated in peacetime on the 60s-70s (replaced by Lynx in the early 80s) were from specialist ASW squadrons (31F or 32F) so presumably she was capable of performing the mission.

 

[Archibald]

Masurca was enormous and heavy and cumbersome SAM. Think Terrier or Sea Slug. Better for Jeanne NOT to have it. Can't remember if the ship got Crotale short range SAMs like the Foch and Clem, ?

 

[NH 17]

Like many words, "fanciful" has shades of meaning. It can mean unrealistic, or flight of imagination (Look it up if you have any doubts). I am aware that she was designed for Mascura. Beyond budgetary issues, I would speculate that it was not installed because, yes, it was very expensive, but also technically demanding. This was a school ship training cadets in basic seamanship and other aspects of the naval profession. Given limited funds (always the case), and operating a state of the art system on a ship not primarily involved with fleet escort, why not install it on a more appropriate platform (Colbert), where it would be a primary system and given all necessary attention? I do not read or speak French. Therefore, have no source or documentation for such thoughts.

The painting, which I like, but is unrealistic as it does not include the usual pair of DRBR 51 radars, nor DRBV 20C (or equivalent long range air search radar) which would be essential for missile guidance. The blueprint you posted does show such systems.

After the end of the Cold War, the US Navy's ASW abilities atrophied to an alarming extent. Sure, helicopters were still carried, ASROC launchers and Mk 32 torpedos remained aboard, but training fell by the wayside (this is well documented). I am sure we agree that simply carrying systems does not mean being able to capably use them.

 

[NH 17]

Masurca was enormous and heavy and cumbersome SAM. Think Terrier or Sea Slug. Better for Jeanne NOT to have it. Can't remember if the ship got Crotale short range SAMs like the Foch and Clem, ?

Seems like point defense would have been a good idea, but it was never shipped.

 

[H_K]

Seems like point defense would have been a good idea, but it was never shipped.

Reliable point defense wasn’t available till the early 80s (Crotale/Sea Wolf). Before that not sure the early Sea Sparrow or Sea Cat were worth it.