On torpedo launchers on Chateaurenault and Guichen (ex A. Regolo and Scipione A.)

[GianmarcoBianchi]

French escort ship Chateaurenault and Guichen have strange 550mm triple TT launchers. They are much shorter than other launchers at that time. What are those launchers and torpedoes ? Data, plans or clear pics are all welcome.

 

[Dilandu]

French escort ship Chateaurenault and Guichen have strange 550mm triple TT launchers. They are much shorter than other launchers at that time. What are those launchers and torpedoes ? Data, plans or clear pics are all welcome.

Looks like this:



Triple 55-cm torpedo tube onboard T 47 type destroyer. Used E-series homing torpedoes (presumably E18, which have both anti-surface and anti-submarine capacity).

 

[Tzoli]

Navweaps:

France Torpedoes of France - NavWeaps

navweaps.com

55 cm (21.65") E14​

Ship Class Used On	Submarines
Date Of Design	1955
Date In Service	1960
Weight	3,637 lbs. (1,650 kg)
Overall Length	168.5 in (4.279 m)
Explosive Charge	440 lbs. (200 kg) Aluminum Tolite
Range / Speed	5,500 yards (5,000 m) / 25.5 knots
Power	Nickel-Cadmium Battery

A smaller version of the E12. Designed primarily for the small French anti-submarine submarines. Modified at least twice during the past thirty years to replace the batteries with silver-zinc models and better engines to double the range and increase the speed by 10 knots as well as better seeker-heads and larger warheads. No longer in French service, but still used by some export countries as of 2000.

55 cm (21.65") E18​

Ship Class Used On	Surface ships
Date Of Design	N/A
Date In Service	N/A
Weight	2,711 lbs. (1,230 kg)
Overall Length	205.9 in (5.230 m)
Explosive Charge	660 lbs. (300 kg) Aluminum Tolite or HBX-3
Range / Speed	19,700 yards (18,000 m) / 35 knots
Power	Battery

Dual purpose (anti-ship and anti-submarine) torpedo. Has a passive seeker head.

 

[Dilandu]

Dual purpose (anti-ship and anti-submarine) torpedo. Has a passive seeker head.

Yep, they are the most likely ammo for those tubes.

 

[zjz]

Incidentally, I have been doing some reading and was educated on the fact that the French used to use 55cm diameter for their torpedoes, resulting in early submarines having 55cm tubes needing to have some adaptors to use the standard 21inch torpedoes ...... of course, latter tubes were standard 21inch ....

 

[Phoenix_jz]

These were KT 50 'short' triple torpedo banks, used for anti-submarine torpedoes.

Châteaurenault and Guichen did not use the E-series torpedoes (which did not fit the KT 50 tubes), but rather the K2 torpedo.

The K2 torpedo was a 4.4-meter long gas turbine powered straight runner capable of 50 knots, which gave it a maximum range of about 1,000 meters. It was intended to be fired in salvoes of three (i.e. a full bank) against an enemy submarine operating as deep as 300 meters. It was essentially the MN's equivalent to the ASW mortar/rocket systems of other NATO navies (Weapon Alfa, Limbo, Menon), and generally referred to as a grenade propulsé (‘self-propelled depth charge’).

WRT other torpedo types used by the MN in this period: The E12 was a submarine-launched torpedo only. The E18 was a surface launched torpedo, though it was a longer (5.23m) type that could not be used from the KT50 tubes. I do not know if it was used by the MN or only offered on export. I will have to go digging a little further.

The T47 Sucourf-class used a mixed torpedo armament - they had two banks of KT 50 'short' tubes amidships, and then two banks of longer AT 47 carried between the amidships deckhouse and aft deckhouse. The AT 47 could carry both short and long torpedoes, and was initially equipped with the 8.28-meter long 55cm Mle 1923DT, a surface-launched straight running torpedo that had entered service around 1930.

When the T47 class were rebuilt into their various subvariants - command ships (3) from 1960 to 1962, AAW ships (4) from 1962 to 1965, and ASW ships (5) from 1968 to 1971 - the AT 47 tubes were removed, and the ships retained only the KT50's. By this point the MN had started replacing the K2 torpedo with the newer L3 (which entered service in 1961). The L3 was a 4.32-meter active homing anti-submarine torpedo.

The T53 Duperré-class eschewed the KT 50 launchers in favor of a Bofors 375mm Mle 1954 rocket launcher, which was the initial replacement for the K2 torpedo. They still carried two AT 47 triple bank torpedo launchers, and embarked the L3 torpedo for the anti-submarine role. I do not know if they ever embarked anti-surface torpedoes.

T56 La Galissonnière would make the opposite trade, and retained the forward KT 50 launchers while sacrificing the aft AT 47 launchers (because of the need to accomodate the structures for Malafon), and likewise used the L3 ASW torpedo.

 

[GianmarcoBianchi]

These were KT 50 'short' triple torpedo banks, used for anti-submarine torpedoes.

Châteaurenault and Guichen did not use the E-series torpedoes (which did not fit the KT 50 tubes), but rather the K2 torpedo.

The K2 torpedo was a 4.4-meter long gas turbine powered straight runner capable of 50 knots, which gave it a maximum range of about 1,000 meters. It was intended to be fired in salvoes of three (i.e. a full bank) against an enemy submarine operating as deep as 300 meters. It was essentially the MN's equivalent to the ASW mortar/rocket systems of other NATO navies (Weapon Alfa, Limbo, Menon), and generally referred to as a grenade propulsé (‘self-propelled depth charge’).

WRT other torpedo types used by the MN in this period: The E12 was a submarine-launched torpedo only. The E18 was a surface launched torpedo, though it was a longer (5.23m) type that could not be used from the KT50 tubes. I do not know if it was used by the MN or only offered on export. I will have to go digging a little further.

The T47 Sucourf-class used a mix torpedo armament - they had two banks of KT 50 'short' tubes amidships, and then two banks of longer AT 47 carried between the amidships deckhouse and aft deckhouse. The AT 47 could carry both short and long torpedoes, and was initially equipped with the 8.28-meter long 55cm Mle 1923DT, a surface-launched straight running torpedo that had entered service around 1930.

When the T47 class were rebuilt into their various subvariants - command ships (3) from 1960 to 1962, AAW ships (4) from 1962 to 1965, and ASW ships (5) from 1968 to 1971 - the AT 47 tubes were removed, and the ships retained only the KT50's. By this point the MN had started replacing the K2 torpedo with the newer L3 (which entered service in 1961). The L3 was a 4.32-meter active homing anti-submarine torpedo.

The T53 Duperré-class eschewed the KT 50 launchers in favor of a Bofors 375mm Mle 1954 rocket launcher, which was the initial replacement for the K2 torpedo. They still carried two AT 47 triple bank torpedo launchers, and embarked the L3 torpedo for the anti-submarine role. I do not know if they ever embarked anti-surface torpedoes.

T56 La Galissonnière would make the opposite trade, and retained the forward KT 50 launchers while sacrificing the aft AT 47 launchers (because of the need to accomodate the structures for Malafon), and likewise used the L3 ASW torpedo.

any reliable references about chateaurenault or such asw torpedo launchers?

 

[Phoenix_jz]

any reliable references about chateaurenault or such asw torpedo launchers?

Probably the most accessible sources for the ships themselves are the moment are John Jordan's articles on French surface combatants of the 1950s-60s, which were published in the Warship annual - formerly Conway's, now Osprey.

More specifically, the following articles:

• John Jordan, "The "Escorteurs Rapides" Chateaurenault and Guichen," in Warship 2005 (Conway Maritime Press, 2005), 136-138.
• John Jordan, "T47 Surcouf," in Warship 2020 (Osprey Publishing, 2020), 180-183.
• John Jordan, "T53 Duperré," in Warship 2021 (Osprey Publishing, 2021), 180-182.

I also have access to a copy of the USNI's Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems in the 1991 edition, which has information on French torpedo designs still in service at the time (pages 693-696). This covers torpedoes as far back as the E12 and L3.

A French acquaintance was also kind enough to send me information from Olivier Huwart's Sous-Marins Français 1944-1954: La décennie du renouveaum, which has a chapter dedicated to French torpedo development in the post-war period. Though unfortunately that also only goes as far froward as the K2, E12, E14, and L3 (and the ill fated Z series).

Unfortunately, I still have something of an information gap on the E18, and I can find no information on what platforms used it. It was never exported, but at the same time I have been unable to identify where it might have been used on any French surface combatants. As discussed in the post, the Marine Nationale moved to the L3 on surface torpedo tubes as soon as it was available, and I don't know when the E18 was actually developed or when, if ever, it entered service. I suspect it may have only existed as an offering for sale, without ever actually finding a customer in France or abroad.

 

[Phoenix_jz]

Unfortunately, I still have something of an information gap on the E18, and I can find no information on what platforms used it. It was never exported, but at the same time I have been unable to identify where it might have been used on any French surface combatants. As discussed in the post, the Marine Nationale moved to the L3 on surface torpedo tubes as soon as it was available, and I don't know when the E18 was actually developed or when, if ever, it entered service. I suspect it may have only existed as an offering for sale, without ever actually finding a customer in France or abroad.

Update on this - I think I have gotten to the bottom of this.

The E18 was definitely never used by any of the French surface ships.

It is not mentioned at all in any edition of Jane's from the early 1970s to the early-mid 80s (at least, up to the 1983/84 editions of Jane's Weapon Systems), the first time it appears that I can see is USNI's Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems in the 1991/92 edition - though it may be in the earlier 1989 edition. I simply do not have access to it to check.

The Navweaps description, as written here:

Dual purpose (anti-ship and anti-submarine) torpedo. Has a passive seeker head.

Is just a slightly shorter version of the description in Guide to World Naval Weapon Systems 1991:

E 18 is a dual-purpose torpedo for surface ships. E 18 has a passive coming (i.e., usable against a noisy submarine) and a maximum depth of 500 m [1640 ft].

The problem is, this seems to have been a mistake. The 1994 update to the 1991/92 edition only contains a short note on the torpedo, which reads as follows:

E 18 Users: Spain (Agosta class)

The Agosta-class are, of course, submarines, not surface ships.

The 1997/97 edition expands on this, stating:

E 18 is a submarine-launched passive torpedo. Maximum depth is 500 m (1640 ft).
Users: Spain (Agosta class), probably also France and Pakistan)

In the 2005 edition (unfortunately, the last one), The E18 is no longer an independent entry, instead combined with the F17 torpedo. It does contain a short paragraph on the type, however, within the F17 section. This reads as follows:

E 18 seems to have been an export passive homing version with similar propulsion performance (35 kt/18 km) and similar dimensions (533 x 5,230 mm); weight was 1,230 kg. Maximum depth is 500 m. Some E 18s were converted into F 17s. This torpedo may have been used only by Spain and Pakistan, in the Agosta class. It may have been the first French 21-in torpedo, a forerunner of the 21in-n version of F 17.

This seems to pretty definitively indicate that E18 was an export-only counterpart to the F17, and not a surfaced launched torpedo at all. Furthermore, it is not clear to me that it was exported at all, as for the Agosta-class, the same source only talks about these submarines using the F17 torpedo. This is supported by data from SIPRI, which likewise only indicates the export of F17 with this submarine class.

Certainly it would have never been used on any of the surface escorts of the Marine Nationale.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Possibly the E18 was a surface launched torpedo that got cancelled before being fully adopted, and the designation ended up being reused for the export derivative of the E17, causing the confusion?

 

[Phoenix_jz]

Possibly the E18 was a surface launched torpedo that got cancelled before being fully adopted, and the designation ended up being reused for the export derivative of the E17, causing the confusion?

I think a more likely that the confusion just stems from the confusion over the relationship of the E18 to the F17 to begin with?

F17 existed in both a submarine launched version (F17, F17 Mod 2) and a submarine or surface launched variant (F17P Mod 1, F17P Mod 2).

It's possible that, circa 1991-92, E18 was being confused for F17P or related developments, as a simpler surface-launched system? Hard to say for sure.