• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

New topic for swarms, small drones that could be used in swarms, etc.

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959
 
Last edited:

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959
 
Last edited:

mrmalaya

Consider it done.
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Messages
322
Reaction score
1
Sometimes you see something and you know you are looking at The Future.

I'm just not sure how to feel about it.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/189994/orbital-atk-demos-counter_uav-technologies.html

"Orbital ATK demonstrated its ability to combine both electronic and kinetic attack through its AUDS (anti-unmanned aerial vehicle defense system) which detects, tracks, identifies and defeats drones, and also brings a kinetic element through the integration of the company’s XM914 30mm Bushmaster Chain Gun mounted to the Stryker combat vehicle platform."

A chain gun against small drones? Good luck with that.
 

TomS

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,622
Reaction score
508
30mm ABM. Just a matter of finding the right dispense point to get multiple small drones in one pattern.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959
TomS said:
30mm ABM. Just a matter of finding the right dispense point to get multiple small drones in one pattern.
Those patterns above are relatively benign. Imagine instead the swarms are made up of these:




and maximizing use of speed, maneuverability, and randomness. A gun wouldn't have a prayer. The only things that will be able to deal with this kind of threat are DEWs. Whether SSLs, microwave, or whatnot, they're the only devices that have the speed and slew/elevation rate to cope. I firmly believe we'll see the day where somebody, probably China, will have plants the size of Teslas Gigafactory, turning out swarm components 24/7. The only tiny ray of sunshine is something as small as a drone won't have hundreds of miles of range, so the opportunity to kill the "archer" will exist.
 
Last edited:

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959
 
Last edited:

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959
250 km/hr



267 km/hr

 
Last edited:

bobbymike

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
9,710
Reaction score
753
https://overthehorizonmdos.com/2018/02/21/swarming-intelligence-concept-to-reality/
 

bobbymike

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
9,710
Reaction score
753
https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2018/05/criminal-gang-used-drone-swarm-obstruct-fbi-raid/147956/?oref=defense_one_breaking_nl

DENVER, Colorado — Last winter, on the outskirts of a large U.S. city, an FBI hostage rescue team set up an elevated observation post to assess an unfolding situation. Soon they heard the buzz of small drones — and then the tiny aircraft were all around them, swooping past in a series of “high-speed low passes at the agents in the observation post to flush them,” the head of the agency’s operational technology law unit told attendees of the AUVSI Xponential conference here. Result: “We were then blind,” said Joe Mazel, meaning the group lost
 

iverson

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Sep 24, 2009
Messages
259
Reaction score
62
bobbymike said:
https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2018/05/criminal-gang-used-drone-swarm-obstruct-fbi-raid/147956/?oref=defense_one_breaking_nl

DENVER, Colorado — Last winter, on the outskirts of a large U.S. city, an FBI hostage rescue team set up an elevated observation post to assess an unfolding situation. Soon they heard the buzz of small drones — and then the tiny aircraft were all around them, swooping past in a series of “high-speed low passes at the agents in the observation post to flush them,” the head of the agency’s operational technology law unit told attendees of the AUVSI Xponential conference here. Result: “We were then blind,” said Joe Mazel, meaning the group lost
I saw this too. But something does not sound right. Note the vagueness of "large U.S. city," the claim that a major F.B.I hostage rescue somehow escaped press attention, the mention of "gangs", the promotional/trade conference, etc. I'm skeptical. It sounds like a story created to back an agenda of some sort, rather than an account of a real event.
 

Wembley

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
56
Reaction score
1
https://dronebelow.com/2018/05/03/chine-ehang-beats-intel-world-record-1300-drone-swarm/
 

Wembley

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
56
Reaction score
1
Zhao Yanjie on China's world record of 200 drones in a swarm: "It is probable in future military operations that unmanned equipment will be deployed in a kind of model of large crowds (成群结队); this is the latest combat style on a global scale. http://news.sina.com.cn/s/2018-05-04/doc-ifzyqqiq6982537.shtml
 

Wembley

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
56
Reaction score
1
"Air Superiority Under 2000 Feet: Lessons from Waging Drone Warfare Against ISIL"

- a very good read on what the threat from small drones looks like and how hard it is to tackle

https://warontherocks.com/2018/05/air-superiority-under-2000-feet-lessons-from-waging-drone-warfare-against-isil/
 

bobbymike

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
9,710
Reaction score
753
http://aviationweek.com/defense/darpa-demonstrates-fast-autonomous-scout-drones?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20180807_AW-05_928&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_2&utm_rid=CPEN1000000230026&utm_campaign=15930&utm_medium=email&elq2=2aeb53bbb5854fda939c8bbbc30a2e77

Darpa has demonstrated algorithms that could enable small commercial drones to become autonomous scouts in urban battle zones or searchers for survivors inside buildings damaged by natural disasters.

In flight tests conducted under Phase 2 of the agency’s Fast Lightweight Autonomy (FLA) program, quadcopters flew between buildings and through alleyways in a mock town, and entered a building through a window, mapped the interior and navigated autonomously down a stairwell and out of an open door.

Building on Phase 1 flights in 2017, the tests at the Guardian Center urban training facility in Perry, Georgia, showed significant progress in outdoor as well as indoor autonomous flight scenarios, Darpa says.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959
Swarms don't need huge warheads.

https://theaviationist.com/2018/01/08/defining-asymmetrical-warfare-extremists-use-retail-drones-to-attack-russian-air-base-in-syria/
 

stealthflanker

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
393
Reaction score
90
sferrin said:
Swarms don't need huge warheads.

https://theaviationist.com/2018/01/08/defining-asymmetrical-warfare-extremists-use-retail-drones-to-attack-russian-air-base-in-syria/
and they apparently can fly much slower to the point typical air defense radar consider it as clutter, low RCS too.
 

stealthflanker

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
393
Reaction score
90

This is one interesting subject. I am however still in opinion that this might not be suitable yet to power anything like swarm drones or large multifunction drone due to large atmospheric spreading and absorption loss.

In a subject of laser power transmission, not only atmospheric phenomenon but also means to adequately transfer the power to all drones in formation. The laser might need to be electronically scanned so it can adequately dwell to provide enough power while fast enough without inertia to "switch" to other drone. The dwell time is i wonder, But the switch time could be about 4 ms (Like basic House UPS/Backup battery, whose "switches" to take over power after prime power loss set to 4ms).
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959

Intel breaks record for drone swarm size. 1500 drones.

 

edwest

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
Messages
885
Reaction score
173
Great. Now the Chinese know :)
 

fredymac

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
1,911
Reaction score
413
US Army has bought some of these. Have to figure the Navy would be interested one way or another. I wouldn't be surprised if this company gets bought out by a large prime once more orders start coming in.

 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,662
Reaction score
108
Beside particular port authorities what purpose does this have? Seems like a robot that is major labor intensive
 

coanda

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
109
Reaction score
18
Beside particular port authorities what purpose does this have? Seems like a robot that is major labor intensive
Imagine, if you will, 60 or so of these little bots armed with an EFP warhead, launched from a sub aboard a carrier craft. The bots surround a ship through a full 360 degrees and then drive into that boat at or below the waterline. That could have a marked effect on the ship.

Very clever cluster bomblets.
 

sferrin

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
12,885
Reaction score
959
Beside particular port authorities what purpose does this have? Seems like a robot that is major labor intensive
Imagine, if you will, 60 or so of these little bots armed with an EFP warhead, launched from a sub aboard a carrier craft. The bots surround a ship through a full 360 degrees and then drive into that boat at or below the waterline. That could have a marked effect on the ship.

Very clever cluster bomblets.
Poke a couple dozen fist-sized holes in a 9,000 ton ship? Why not just have them swarm the ships sensors and mission-kill it?
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,662
Reaction score
108
Beside particular port authorities what purpose does this have? Seems like a robot that is major labor intensive
Imagine, if you will, 60 or so of these little bots armed with an EFP warhead, launched from a sub aboard a carrier craft. The bots surround a ship through a full 360 degrees and then drive into that boat at or below the waterline. That could have a marked effect on the ship.

Very clever cluster bomblets.
The storage of the things on your submarine and probability of mishaps... The low range thus exposing your submarine. The warhead effects (target splits itself in half on its own weight) design and the evolution of torpedos which work from further and further distances as technology improves fits the bill.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,662
Reaction score
108
Beside particular port authorities what purpose does this have? Seems like a robot that is major labor intensive
Imagine, if you will, 60 or so of these little bots armed with an EFP warhead, launched from a sub aboard a carrier craft. The bots surround a ship through a full 360 degrees and then drive into that boat at or below the waterline. That could have a marked effect on the ship.

Very clever cluster bomblets.
The storage of the things on your submarine and probability of mishaps... The low range thus exposing your submarine. The warhead effects (target splits itself in half on its own weight) design and the evolution of torpedos which work from further and further distances as technology improves fits the bill.
 

DWG

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
623
Reaction score
317
Beside particular port authorities what purpose does this have? Seems like a robot that is major labor intensive
Immediate thoughts that pop to mind:
Anchorage security/counter-diver (eats less fish than dolphins, fewer animal rights complaints, much easier to deploy)
Beach recce (surface sampling, seabed profiling)
Surf zone mine recce
Distributed sonar sensors

You also don't need to use the swarming capability, it could be used as a single vehicle, and it's small enough to be deployed via sonobuoy tubes or a sub's signal ejectors, hung off a comparatively small UAV (cf the one P-8 Poseidon was supposed to get for investigating contacts from altitude), or just lobbed over the side or dropped off by a diver.

And of course it's potentially a surrogate for modelling a more capable vehicle in trials and exercises.
 

jeffb

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Oct 7, 2012
Messages
139
Reaction score
42
Bit of movie magic - drone attack on the president. Not a bad movie overall but you'd like to think the secret service are a bit more prepared for this sort of attack than you see here:
 

DWG

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
623
Reaction score
317
The movie drones are slightly more capable than the ones (allegedly) used to attack Venezuela's President Maduro in 2018. The kind of strike in the clip is really only open to state actors at present, and there's not really a countermeasure as things currently stand. ECM might downgrade the swarm logic by inhibiting inter-swarm communication, but you'd want to design them with a back-up stand-alone smart missile mode to allow them to attack whatever target of opportunity they find in the target area.

Actual counter-drone technology is pretty limited, mostly we seem to be relying on cooperative drones that will RTB if they fly into restricted airspace (which is just begging someone to reverse engineer that out of the firmware). Hard-kill technology is still mostly at the level of snipers and nets, with the occasional raptor (bird of prey, not F-22), USAr has a handful of Raytheon's Howler, which combine a radar, C2 facility and the Block II Coyote drone as the kill vehicle. Leonardo has a contract for MLIDs, which puts a sensor on one MRAP and a 30mm RWS on another. Sierra Nevada/Ascent have X-MADIS (eXpeditionary Mobile Aerial Defense Integrated System), which is a SUV with radar and EO sensors, but the 'kill' mechanism seems to be a jammer. Most commercial counter-drone systems out there seem to depend on jamming the link between drone and controller, but if you're up against an autonomous drone then there isn't going to be a link to jam. Directed energy weapons, lasers and microwave systems, seem to still be at the real-soon-now stage.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,662
Reaction score
108
for some capability which launches from sub tubes like the Switchblade UAV which has already been done. An UAV must leave no refuse on the surface as the Aerovironment UAV does. These craft would launch in coastal waters and sensors coming on line would find the refuse and by extention the submarine. (bad juju)
Some vehicle which has surface, subsurface and airborne capability and some exotic powersource to afford useful range. USN would need to assume the risk of such a development and industry finally build it.
 

panzerfeist1

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
207
Reaction score
57
Website
www.quora.com
The idea of swarm technology sounds like fun. But there is a great abundance of microwave weapons(like guns) being created. Introduction of EMP emitting missiles. Autonomous features are great if your targets are not mobile so searches might require more distance

But the worst part is how small will you make your drone and depending on that size what kind of range can it cover or what distance must this swarm technology be dispatched at. There is now talks of mobile nuclear generator power plants which can effectively power some power consuming devices that would love to fry electronics. So it depends who will outpace who in development. drones/ counter-done projects have a lot of work to do to be applied correctly.
 

DWG

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
623
Reaction score
317
The idea of swarm technology sounds like fun. But there is a great abundance of microwave weapons(like guns) being created. Introduction of EMP emitting missiles.
You can harden against EMP, so it becomes the usual arms race. Most of the existing gun-type designs seem to be directional jammers, rather than EMP-based - because you're not going to want EMPs going off around the media's video cameras (or ATC's computers) at the event (or airport) you're protecting. Which brings up an important issue in drone defence - it's a civilian as well as a military issue and what might be legal and sensible on the battlefield may not be legal or sensible in the middle of a city.
 

DWG

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
623
Reaction score
317

USAF buying a single Raytheon HELWS for outside of CONUS testing. It's a Polaris buggy with sensors and a 20-30 shot counter drone laser.
 

DWG

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
623
Reaction score
317

Swarming with three Songars using the same pilot and controller to attack a single target is specifically mentioned.
 

fredymac

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
1,911
Reaction score
413
Drones are used to release smoke at specific locations in the sky and then lasers projects images onto the smoke to create 3D images.

 
Top