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flateric

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Damn, it's out of stock already
 

Antonio

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It sounds very interesting but it is 50 € + pp ...I would like to know more about the contents before considering an order :p
 

flateric

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50 USD are not 50 Euro :)
Damn, I'm ready to pay 50 Euro to SEE its contents!
 

overscan

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It sounds extremely interesting. If anyone gets hold of an index... please post!
 

flateric

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I've ordered one and said that will be informed of shipping. So crossing my fingers. I was not very impressed by Holder's books from Schiffer Books Publishing, but who knows...
 

flateric

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Yep, Scott was right - it's not OUT of stock, it's still NOT in stock YET. That's what SAE customer service guy told me.
 

Antonio

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Ok, so we have to wait then :p
 

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New book, new magazine - whatever? Jozef, you should give us more details on this ... ;)
 

boxkite

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Sorry, I've forgotten to attach the illustration with the object of desire in the right corner ...
 

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flateric

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Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,

The book R-374 (Lost Fighters: A History of U.S. Jet Fighter Programs That Didn't Make It) has a publish date of 11/30/2006 so it is not yet available.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Jill Hickinbottom

Customer Specialist



Customer Service

SAE International

400 Commonwealth Dr

Warrendale, PA 15096-0001

Toll free: 1-877-606-7323

Outside US and Canada: 1-724-776-4970

Fax: 1-724-776-0790

E-Mail: CustomerService@sae.org
 

Matej

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This is not a new, however the most interesting book that enlarged my archive in recent months. I had a big expectations regarding to unbuilt projects, but there are not any. However I was not disappointed. I found a lot of unique, never seen photos and I am planning to post some of them here during the next week.

Northrop - an aeronautical history

A commemorative book edition of airplane designs and concepts by Fred Anderson, published by Northrop Corporation.
 

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Skybolt

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Book from SAE is in stock. Ordered. Waiting.
Received "Les Paquebots Volants". Great. Secret projects too, though another 8 pages on evo of Latè 631 (both immediate and far-off) and Se-200 would have been greater.. Probably Lariviere thinks we should already have the Latecoere by Jean Cuny ;). Post war hydravions projects would have fit well, too. Altogether, recommended.
 

Andreas Parsch

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Hi,

there is a new "Secret Projects" book:

Bill Rose & Tony Buttler: "Secret Projects: Flying Saucer Aircraft", Midland Publishing, 2006 (ISBN 1-85780-233-0)

When I saw the ad for this volume, I was skeptical at first, not the least because the cover had a large artwork of a "Nazi Flying Disk" of a design which is clearly unrealistic. I didn't want to spend about GBP 25 for a book on sensationalist ufology ;). In the end, I gave it a try, mainly because the reputation of the names "Tony Buttler" and "Midland".

I can't say I regret the purchase, but neither would I consider the book an absolute "must have". I'll elaborate a bit ...


First, the primary author of the book is apparently Bill Rose. The "About the author" column only shows Rose, the introduction is also only signed by Bill Rose, and a lot of photos and all CGI is attributed to him.

The table of contents reads:

  • Introduction
  • 1 Early Circular-Winged Aircraft
  • 2 German Wartime Flying Discs
  • 3 Canada's Cold War Saucers
  • 4 Postwar Discplane Development
  • 5 Russian Flying Discs
  • 6 Lighter-Than-Air Vehicles and the UFO Connection
  • 7 Flying Saucer Spacecraft
  • 8 Fans and Ducts
  • 9 Exotic Propulsion Systems
  • Glossary
  • Index

Chapters 1, 6, 8 and 9 clearly show that the topic is not strictly limited to "saucer" designs.

The "real" saucer projects are mainly covered in chapters 3-5, and are described adequately, but of course not anywhere as detailed as projects in, say, Scott's APR ;). The book is well illustrated, but there are sometimes a bit too much "gap-filler" photos, which do not really belong to the subject. E.g., chapter 3 (about the Avro saucers) has several photos of conventional 1950s aircraft (to "show the context", presumably). The flying disks themselves are illustrated with photos, CGI, drawings, cutaways and/or patent drawings, if available (the corresponding U.S. patent numbers are sometimes, but not always given - ??? ).

Chapter 8 covers "flying ducts" (like the U.S. Army hovering one-man platforms) and annular wing designs. Not saucers, but "round wings" nevertheless, and an interesting addition to the book.

That said, the coverage of the "real" (existence confirmed, documentation available, etc.) projects is good, and makes the book a worthwhile addition to an aviation bookshelf.


Then big downside (IMHO) of the book are the more speculative parts, mainly chapters 2 and 9. As for the Nazi disks, there is exactly one "real" project, the Sack AS-6. This does of course belong into the book, but I think Rose gives the highly speculative (and in several cases proven false by other authors) (in-)famous disks by Miethe, Schriever, etc. too much space. Rose is apparently no firm "believer" (a few times he says that a particular claim is pure fantasy, and labels others as "highly questionable"), but then why does he discuss these things in any detail at all? The chapter is far too long for a serious aviation book, and far too short for a serious book on mystery/ufology (i.e. one that tries to evaluate and verify the claims using methods of science and professional historical research). To top it off, chapter 2 even contains a section about the "Foo Fighters" :mad: !!

The greater part of chapter 9 is about T.T. Browns "electrogravitics". Again, such a highly controversial (to put it mildly) topic is in my view much better suited for specialized scientific works.

While chapter 7 is not so much speculation as such, it is largely superfluous. The explanation of how high-altitude balloons can (and very often did) fool people into seeing "flying saucers" belongs into a book on UFO research and not into one about aviation history. The only real LTA saucer projects in this chapter could just as well have gone into chapter 4. What also put me off a bit is that Rose is apparently not completely convinced by the "Project MOGUL" explanation for the "Roswell incident" (which, again, has no place in an aviation history book anyway), and finished that particular section with the phrase "The debate continues [...]". Well, it doesn't, at least among people who took the care to look at all the evidence. Ok, I digressed a bit - just as Bill Rose, but you don't have to pay for my blahblah ... ;)


Summary: All said, I'd give the book a 7/10 rating. A reasonably detailed and comprehensive overview of saucer and circular wing aircraft designs, but too much "ufology".


Regards
Andreas
 

Sentinel Chicken

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Thanks for the review, Andreas. I may hold off a bit on picking up that book. My biggest concern when I saw the title was that it might be too heavy on the UFO side of things.
 

lark

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I have the book on order Andreas.
(expected next week)
Thanks for the warning ;)
 

flateric

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SAE Bill Holder's 'Lost Fighters'

Got it today. Have nothing personal against Bill Holder, but must inform you that the book is rather <censored> DISSAPOINTMENT and it's price should be 10, maximim 15 bucks. No way about 66 bucks I've paid total for the book (49 USD) and delivery. Say, other variant of Pace's X-fighters, with larger space between text lines, larger letters and WEIRDEST quality reproductions of well-known pics. Just a copuple of projects I've not seen, just a couple of pics.
It was surely most stupid money spending by me in 2006.
 

overscan

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Well, hopefully it won't spoil the market for Tony's excellent book.

Shame someone had to buy it to find out its rubbish though.
 

flateric

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I must add that it seems well-known hand of Schiffer Publishing photo editor appears - many photos are cropped, i.e. you see just half of an airplane, or airplane tail/nose is cropped on the photos that surely known to have a whole stuff, plus some pics are just rotated upward down (X-36 for example). I later will scan and put some examples because my description sounds very negative, you'd better see it yourself. Moreover, SAE said that the book was late in stock BECAUSE IT WAS sent to reprinting - first lot was printed wrong. Is what I got is right, then how bad was this wrong?
 

flateric

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I will post backcover, contents, example of one aircraft description and example of some of illustrations quality later today to you make your own jugdment.
 

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overscan

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Whoa. Thats some terrible reproduction going on there!
 

Antonio

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Thanks a lot flateric,

there is nothing interesting seeing index, very bad edited seeing the sample pages and extremely expensive for what it offers :mad:

Let's wait for Tony Buttler's book. ;D
 

Skybolt

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There IS some useful info in that book.. A couple of odd projects, one from Temco for example (not LTV, Temco). Some strange news, like that McDonnell proposed to designate the interceptro version of F-101 ad F-109, and so on... Some irritating topics, like the Boeing night-fighter projects (no illustration....) My impression is that the book was assembled in a lot of a hurry.... And reproductions are REALLY awful...
 

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Skybolt said:
Some strange news, like that McDonnell proposed to designate the interceptro version of F-101 ad F-109,
This rumour is not new at all. But I would dismiss any new book, which (a) states it as a "fact" (or even as "probable") and (b) doesn't provide first-hand evidence for it, as unreliable when it comes to designations :-\ (*). That said, and having looked at the book's table of contents, I'm not sure if I really want to know what Holder has to say about things like YF-112/116, F-121, F-19 and F9U ::).

(*)There is no first-hand evidence to support this claim, and several facts which make it look very unlikely.
 

lark

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Re: New Books - Flying Saucer aircraft

Just finished reading Flying Saucer Aircraft and
it let me with mixed feelings.

This is a book about aircraft designs with unusual shaped wings of
which a number of disc or semi disc form. Was the book entirely devoted to saucer shapes it would be a sleek work. For this we can forgive the author.
But there is more...
The introduction is perfect for a book about ufo's.
About the German wartime disc is no new information found.Every thing
was already told.Strange to see that the ideas of Andreas Epp
which were of the more realistic kind are not illustrated.
The chapter of he Canadian Cold War saucers is an extended version
of an article by same author in Air Pictorial of May 2001.
For more profound info I like to refer to the book of Bill Zuk.

The chapter concerning the saucer space craft is good with some
rare info Shukanov's disc spaceplanes .Even so with the
chapter about fans and ducts.Informative is the least I can say.

For a book about this subject I miss a reference chapter (or page)
In my opinion,this work is clearly not written by Tony Buttler.
A lot of the illustration are cleaned up patent drawings..
The book it is well produced. Only the cover is not well choosen.
I give it the same score as Andreas : 7 on 10.
 

flateric

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Andreas - just in case you don't know, you are acknowledged for designations info used in this book)))
Following is a wealth of new information that USD 49,95 pricetag book provides of misterious YFs and F-19...
 

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overscan

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He clearly didn't believe in filling the pages with words, did he!
 

flateric

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Never thought that being 'fully fueled' can affect a/c lenght and wingspan any way (not the case with rockets, though).
 

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Andreas Parsch

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flateric said:
Andreas - just in case you don't know, you are acknowledged for designations info used in this book)))
Thanks for the note. Now that you mention it, I remember that Bill Holder asked me for permission to use material from my article about the YF-11x designations. Unfortunately, he ignored my advice not to include the "YF-116" and "F-121", which I list as vague and unreliable rumors ::).

Following is a wealth of new information that USD 49,95 pricetag book provides of misterious YFs and F-19...
... which is less information (significantly so in the case of "F-19") than is available for free from reliable ( ;) ) sources on the web ;D. I wonder why the fact that the official DOD paperwork for the allocation of the F-20 designator explicitly explains (albeit with a somewhat strange rationale) why F-19 was skipped, is not mentioned at all :-\ .
 

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Note for those who do not know about this publication yet. I’m going to buy one ASAP

Jakab No. 5: MiG-15 in the Czechoslovak Air Force, Vol. 1

The publication intends to offer a closer view on production, development and service of Czechoslovakian built airplane types (with Czochoslovakian or foreign origin) in the Czechoslovak Air Force and in other Air Forces, using the type in service. These booklets show up to 170 contemporary photographs and detail photographs (colour and b/w (dependable on the type introduced)), colour profiles (of around 20 different a/c partly in 4-side views), around 3 pages showing 1/72 scale drawings (5-side views) and manual reprints. The text is Czech/English.
This is the first of three volumes covering the MiG-15.

First Edition: yes
Author: Miroslav Irra
Edition: 1
Pages: 104
Year of publication: 2006
Measurement: 29.5 x 20.5 x 0.7 cm
Language: English/Czech
Cover: paperback
 

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elmayerle

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flateric said:
Never thought that being 'fully fueled' can affect a/c lenght and wingspan any way (not the case with rockets, though).
I'd call it more a poor job of writing than anything else. "Fully fueled" normally doesn't affect aircraft length and wingspan, but if an fully fueled one is left sitting in the sun, it certainly can. They found that out with one of the ZELL F-100s that was left sitting on the launcher most of the day, the shift in cg was sufficient - and the booster thrust has to be through the cg for a stable launch - that the pilot had a "sporting" time controling things during the launch.
 

Skybolt

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This rumour is not new at all. But I would dismiss any new book, which (a) states it as a "fact" (or even as "probable") and (b) doesn't provide first-hand evidence for it, as unreliable when it comes to designations Undecided (*). That said, and having looked at the book's table of contents, I'm not sure if I really want to know what Holder has to say about things like YF-112/116, F-121, F-19 and F9U Roll Eyes.

(*)There is no first-hand evidence to support this claim, and several facts which make it look very unlikely.
Uh, actually this one of the few Holder got right... ;)
He reproduces a standard aircraft characteristics document by the Air Force with the F-109 designation for the Voodoo interceptor version... When my £$%(=?! scanner restrts working, I'll post the relevant pages... (70-71)

Anything useful in it?
Well, actually there are things: an alternate F-107 configuration drawing (artist impression) with a chin intake; the first version of the Bell D-188; a couple of wind-tunnel models of the microfighter project. Some mistakes are rather comical, like the alleged Lancer early mock-up which is really the XF-90 one.... ::)
 

Andreas Parsch

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Skybolt said:
Uh, actually this one of the few Holder got right... ;)
He reproduces a standard aircraft characteristics document by the Air Force with the F-109 designation for the Voodoo interceptor version... When my £$%(=?! scanner restrts working, I'll post the relevant pages... (70-71)
Now this is a real surprise! I'd be very much interested in this Standard Aircraft Characteristics sheet, especially its date. When the F-101B designation was assigned (May 1955), the next new F-series number was 108 (which was assigned in June 1957). USAF nomenclature records of the time do not show any "interim" F-109 designation, even though they do list such oddities as the interim XF-106 (became XF-84H) and XF-104 (became XF-98A) designations.
 

flateric

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Till Skybolt is fixing his '£$%(=?! scanner' ;) here's F-109(101) stuff
Chin intake F-107 (in fact, F-100B) project I've seen much earlier as mockup photo in respected Bill Simone's beautiful F-107A book (Ginter's Air Force Legends Series No.203)
 

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Andreas Parsch

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flateric said:
Till Skybolt is fixing his '£$%(=?! scanner' ;) here's F-109(101) stuff
Thank you very much :) ! We will probably never know, why they proposed to skip F-108 in their proposal ;).
 
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